Fan Mod Project

@NinjaLA: Every single one of the mods and total conversions mentioned took years. That's not a problem related to Saga alone and doesn't disqualify the Freespace2 engine or any other engine.

Let's not get into an engine fight. I'd suggest just try making a mission in each engine and see what's best for you.

Good point. That's the best advice we can give. He has to test it, and then decide what fits best for him.
 
Does the Freespace-2 Engine allow one to program in roll-acceleration, and yaw and pitch acceleration rates (like WCP) in addition to just yaw/pitch/roll rates?

An idea that me and a person who I talk to occasionally via E-mail came up an interesting idea. The idea would be to make the game more flightsim-like and less arcade like. Say 60% Sim, 40% Arcade.

What do you guys think?
 
If you want that your mod work exactly as WCP then your option is the WCP engine. There are a lot of tools and information about programming and edition. The point is that you must have a minimum knowledge of programmig. Have you some knowledge?
 
I wasn't necessarily saying I wanted it to be exactly like WCP... I just wondered if yaw, pitch, and roll acceleration rates could be added to the Freespace 2 engine in addition to the already present YPR rates.

I do not think the WCP engine is the answer...


Victoria Kent
 
I wasn't necessarily saying I wanted it to be exactly like WCP... I just wondered if yaw, pitch, and roll acceleration rates could be added to the Freespace 2 engine in addition to the already present YPR rates.

I do not think the WCP engine is the answer...


Victoria Kent

The BSG "Beyond the Red Line" mod for FS2 supposedly uses flight dynamics that allow the vipers and raiders to move a little more like the ships in the series. I don't know if that covers YPR acceleration, though, but it implies that maybe the system makes deeper use of quasi-inertia than the Vision engine does. Check out that mod to get a feel for it, maybe?
 
Toast,
Can any of those WC-Mods use a mac? Silly question, but to the best of my knowledge some programs still aren't compatible with both.

Aginor,
I just joined the Hard Light forum and asked the exact question


Victoria Kent
 
I know that Saga can be run on a mac, BTRL and TBP I am not sure but should be possible. Question is of someone converts the files.
 
I didn't mean to pick a fight here.. I just meant that Flight Commander is pretty much designed around being used in Wing Commander mods.. so it makes sense to use it over other engines not so configured when you are limited on team members and time for a project.
 
Flight Commander does have some appeal to it, particularly that it's specially designed for Wing Commander. Freespace2, however has better graphics

(By the way, one can adjust the $rotdamp value in the Freespace 2 engine which can produce inertial effects on the roll and pitch, probably yaw as well.)


V Kent
 
I don't understand why you are so concerned with Y/P/R.

All of these engines allow you to set values for them, otherwise how would ships feel unique if they all turned at the same rates.

I wouldn't worry about better gfx or anything yet. Unless you have the ability to create the level of models and gfx seen in the FS2 engine, it's not going to do any good to have an engine that can display them if you don't have any of quality to display.

If anything it seems that there are a few people trying to get something going, which is great, but all of you who are trying to get your own off the ground should start PMing each other and trying to work something out.

Lofty ideas are great and all, but to get them to execution is something very different. If anything try creating 2 or 3 missions in each of the prospective engines and see which one best fits your abilities.
 
If I understood correctly it is not about ypr rates but y/p/r acceleration. Thats another thing.
 
If anything it seems that there are a few people trying to get something going, which is great, but all of you who are trying to get your own off the ground should start PMing each other and trying to work something out.

Actually that's a very good idea! Thanks....


Victoria Kent
 
well, yea. it might be much easier if you have a team, especially cause that way people motivate each other to finish something thats been started...
So do you have anybody on board for your project?
 
Assembling teams without being forced to do so by necessity is a great way to deorganize everything and demotivate everyone quicker. Nobody who's going to be of any actual help would volunteer to help a "project" that has nothing but a bunch "hey, what if..." posts going for it.

Here's a way to come up with a non-vaporware fan project (these are merely this humble random guy's suggestions, of course):
1) Write your ideas down. Every single last tiny detail of it.
2) Print your script out, frame it and hang it on a wall. Put bear traps around it. You want to *look* at this, you don't wanna mess with it, ever again.
3) Get as much of your project done as you possibly can. At this stage, it should seem somewhat impressive, and you should now be confident that you can finish it. If not, learn some new skills and restart step #3 again.
4) Announce it, in detail. At this point, everyone will have a clear picture of what the plan is, and will be confident in your announcement. They will have an idea of what you can do, and they will know which areas of the project are lagging behind. At this point you might start getting offers of help from people who will actually be helpful. This is good, because it makes step 5 easier:
5) Finish it up.
 
Let's see...

PART ONE: The Technicals

The idea is to use the FS2 Game-Engine because of it's good graphics and such. Also, the game engine can be made to work in such a way to have a damage model that allows you to shoot off stuff, turrets, bridge, etc, and damage the whole ship at the same time which would be the most realistic damage model. The rules would have to be programmed in everytime the ship would appear to do this, but it could be done.

Redesign WC-1 and WC-2 fighter's and ships with new graphics. Make the Kilrathi Ships, while not as advanced looking as WC-3, have some WC-3 characteristics including the prongs and angular edges. WC-2 ships look all excessively rounded and such and as a result I'd like to make them look advanced obviously, but retain the WC look we see in all the other games. Put fly-through decks on all fleet-carriers, and the Waterloo. Put armored doors on flight-decked capships.

Repaint capships from WC-1 and WC-2 in WC-3 style gray and blue and Kilrathi into their gold/red.

Use a scaling system to bring all the WC-1, WC-2 ships into line with the WC-3 models. On WC-3 models make the windows smaller to convey size more realistically, and use same scaling for WC-1 and WC-2 overhaul.

On WC-1 and WC-2 models, replace flak-cannons with a number of point-defense turrets. Also, on WC-3 add point defense turrets to models to give them more realistic defensive capabilities. Also, make the shield and armor values from WC-1 to WC-2 to WC-3 closer to each other even though through the game you'd see progressive growth from WC-1 to WC-3.

Use 3D cockpits with 3D radar, HUD's, and also the ability to view without the cockpit to produce a WC-3 and up game feel. Put the movable pilot's stick on the right side and put the throttle on the left. Just like in the game when the pilot pulls on the stick you can see the hand move... when you slow down same happens with the throttles.

Provide for the designs in addition to yaw/pitch/roll rates (maximum), to provide inertial effects for all three. Additionally, an idea is to provide more realistic acceleration/deceleration curve effects, with the ability to turn off atmospheric effects (rams closed), or back on, with acceleration curves for space-only flight (still happens). Perhaps have speed 'bleed off' during hard turns, and realistic atmosphere effects.

Perhaps a feature which shows how much G's the pilot's featuring perhaps and once past a point, he blacks out... image goes gray, then tunnel vision, then out...


For interactive scenes, use Crysis engine to perform machimania, using it's ultrarealistic engine to produce realistic 3D characters. The machimania could be converted into video-files in the game.

The characters can look closer to how they were meant to look, better uniforms could be created that would look like something respectable rather than the stuff in WC-3.

That's all I got now in the technical department.
 
The idea is to use the FS2 Game-Engine because of it's good graphics and such.

Perfect.

Redesign WC-1 and WC-2 fighter's and ships with new graphics. Make the Kilrathi Ships, while not as advanced looking as WC-3, have some WC-3 characteristics including the prongs and angular edges. WC-2 ships look all excessively rounded and such and as a result I'd like to make them look advanced obviously, but retain the WC look we see in all the other games. Put fly-through decks on all fleet-carriers, and the Waterloo. Put armored doors on flight-decked capships.

This isn't improving the graphics, it's changing things. You will never ever hear the end of this.

Repaint capships from WC-1 and WC-2 in WC-3 style gray and blue and Kilrathi into their gold/red.

All the colors add character. It'd be a shame to lose that.

On WC-1 and WC-2 models, replace flak-cannons with a number of point-defense turrets. Also, on WC-3 add point defense turrets to models to give them more realistic defensive capabilities.

Realistic?

Also, make the shield and armor values from WC-1 to WC-2 to WC-3 closer to each other even though through the game you'd see progressive growth from WC-1 to WC-3.

What's the point of this?

Use 3D cockpits with 3D radar, HUD's, and also the ability to view without the cockpit to produce a WC-3 and up game feel. Put the movable pilot's stick on the right side and put the throttle on the left.

This isn't trying to match stuff to a WC game's style, it's just taking arbitrary things from today and changing the games to match what we have in 2007.

Perhaps a feature which shows how much G's the pilot's featuring perhaps and once past a point, he blacks out... image goes gray, then tunnel vision, then out...

We're in space ships dashing around at thousands of meters/kilometers per second. If acceleration and gravity weren't already being heavily manipulated, the people inside would be smashed to paste.

For interactive scenes, use Crysis engine to perform machimania, using it's ultrarealistic engine to produce realistic 3D characters. The machimania could be converted into video-files in the game.

How did you pick that? Wouldn't it make sense to pick something with a remotely similar setting? Machinima would be an extremely blunt way to do this. You use way too many apostrophes.

The characters can look closer to how they were meant to look, better uniforms could be created that would look like something respectable rather than the stuff in WC-3.

How does this mesh with what you were just saying about Crysis?
 
ChrisReid,


Thanks

This isn't improving the graphics, it's changing things. You will never ever hear the end of this.

SWC had radically different graphics than WC-1. Regarding the Kilrathi designs featuring more aggressive edges isn't all that crazy -- by the way it was written in WC-3 in the manual, it seemed as if the designs of the Kilrathi were common practice. The Krant, Jalthi, and to an extent the Dralthi look pretty good. The capital ships would combine WC-1 and WC-3 traits yet looking simpler than WC-3 designs. In terms of changing the WC-2 ships around, not all of them would be changed -- the Gilgamesh largely looks good. The Waterloo looks a bit cartoonish, or like something you'd get in a McDonald's Happy Meal back in the eighties. In any case, there are other people who agree with me and are not particularly fond of some of WC-2's designs. So I simply propose retaining the essence of some of the designs and giving them some WC-1, WC-2 and WC-4 characteristics to make them seem more a part of the timeline -- they would still be made to look more advanced than the WC-1 era designs.

All the colors add character. It'd be a shame to lose that.

The silver and primary green never did it for me. The blue and gray looked so much more realistic.

Realistic?

Let's face it. Flak cannons exist for two reasons alone
-The flak effect is much to provide that WWII feel
-It takes up lots of computer resources back then to simulate the firing arcs of 20 something small guns, in addition to a couple of big ones.

The first explanation is taking the WWII thing to death -- WC is supposed to have an element of WW2 in space... but this is not to be interpreted too far. WC-Ships aren't propeller powered, they're fusion powered, Air to Air missiles are used which aren't in WWII. Forcefields didn't exist then either.

The second statement may have been correct in 1990 - 1992, and even 1994-1996... still, in WC-3 they did away with the idea of flak-turrets in WC-3 since they didn't look realistic. And modern day we have far greater computational capacity -- we can simulate dozens of turrets on loads of ships.

Point defense turrets are sort of "implied" to be on various capital ships. For example the Vesuvius had 14 AMG's, but it also had something like 40 smaller turrets as well which weren't in the game engine actually. The Bengal, while it was listed as having 8 lasers and 6 missile launchers, it also in other sources was listed as having 22 point defense cannons.

Additionally torpedo tubes are on a variety of capships, particularly destroyers, and even in novels they're mentioned firing them -- waves of them actually. Yet they are not represented on the game engine. The only exception I can think of is the Vesuvius which fired a torpedo in WC-4.

What's the point of this?

Well, it seems kind of absurd that you'd have a carrier with 24 cm of armor, then in the next game , your cruisers would have around 400, and in WC-3 you'd see fighters with shield ratings equivalent to that of armor levels of cruisers in WC-2. Even Bandit LOAF has discussed that there are various types of armor and their strength is a certain equivalent that of durasteel. Even if the literal armor rating is 24 cm, it could easily be far stronger with a good type of armor, so the Tiger's Claw could have a considerably stronger hull than the 24 centimeter listing as we're not sure what kind of armor it uses.

This isn't trying to match stuff to a WC game's style, it's just taking arbitrary things from today and changing the games to match what we have in 2007.

Actually, in WCP there is a roll-acceleration rate. It would be logical to assume every fighter before had one too... the game engine just didn't factor it in. Additionally, such ships would experience pitch and yaw acceleration rates too.

The acceleration curve thing was simply an idea for adding more realism to it. Especially if you have atmospheric effects, or in this case hydrogen flow over the hull... the initial acceleration would be good, then as the drag builds up the acceleration would take a tad longer to reach top speed.

Speed additionally gets bled off in turns as the angle of attack increases, drag increases causing a reduction in speed. It would add realism to the game.

Er... I misread what you were talking about... I'm still posting this anyway because it makes a good point...

But the ability to see without the cockpit and just the stats (speed, fuel-state, radar-data, ship damage) was common in WC-3 and WC-4. A remake of WC-1 or WC-2 should logically have such a thing. In WC-1, WC-2 and WC-3 you can also see the cockpit. Not all that odd.

The 3D cockpit idea makes for much better situational awareness. Quite simply a 3D image is far better than a 2D image of a 3D environment. The image could be on one of the screens as in WC-1 and WC-2 probably.

Regarding the throttle and stick placement, since the 1970's fighter planes have started, and now have become more and more commonly fitted with a HOTAS set up which features the control-stick on the right side, and the throttles on the left-side, including the brand new F-22. Considering WC-1, WC-2 and WC-3 take place hundreds of years in the future, it would be logical that such a set-up, which is actually easier to use, would be used on WC-fighters.

We're in space ships dashing around at thousands of meters/kilometers per second. If acceleration and gravity weren't already being heavily manipulated, the people inside would be smashed to paste.

Wing Commander fighters, and capships have Inertial-Dampers / Acceleration-Absorbers which nullify most of the acceleration sensation. There's still a tiny amount that manages to be felt by the pilot. Especially during the hardest of turns. An "Indicated-G" meter, which would show what the pilot is being subjected to would be kind of cool IMHO.

How did you pick that? Wouldn't it make sense to pick something with a remotely similar setting? Machinima would be an extremely blunt way to do this. You use way too many apostrophes.

Well, Crysis has a superb graphics engine. The terrain, the landscapes, the people look almost photo-realistic. When I first saw it I was almost in awe.

Well, if you take the game engine (Crysis), and use it to make the character move in the various ways a human would... record that into an AVI file... you could make a cut-scene out of it.

How does this mesh with what you were just saying about Crysis?

Well, I was under the impression that you could create your own characters. Considering in WC-1 and WC-2 your characters are basically cartoon drawings, replacing them with damn near photographic characters would be a dramatic improvement, and being that these 3D-rendered characters would be unlike an actor who's appearance you can only change so much, could be made to look like anyone, and as a result would be made to resemble the drawings of the characters in WC-1 but would be made to look real.

Regarding the Uniforms. It would be cool to have the characters in uniforms that would look like they belong to a professional military. WC-1 wasn't all that bad actually...


Victoria Kent
 
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