Fan Mod Project

M

Miracynonyx100

Swabbie
Banned
Not long ago (couple of days), I stumbled upon a major bungload of printed WC schematics, some drawings, and some written stuff that one of my cousins left behind some time ago when he lived at my place about an idea to make a WC-mod from WC-1 to WC-3+ with WC-3+ graphics. I called him yesterday and haven't got a response yet (but I think he'd go for it)

So I asked LOAF if I could advertize to a yahoo-group I was planning to create, and he told me that under certain circumstances I could, however he told me it would be better to just use this forum.

So with that said. How would people here like hypothetically to have a fan-mod that covered all of WC-1, SM1, SM1.5?, SM-2, The Destruction of the Tiger's Claw, WC-2, SO-1, SO-1, Fleet Action, WC-3, and WC-4? With quality computer generated interactive scenes a'la WC Standoff to provide the closest thing to live-actor scenes in all the WC-games and stuff?

Any opinions?


Victoria Kent,
E-mail: Miracinonyx3@hotmail.com
 
Miracynonyx100 said:
Not long ago (couple of days), I stumbled upon a major bungload of printed WC schematics, some drawings, and some written stuff that one of my cousins left behind some time ago when he lived at my place about an idea to make a WC-mod from WC-1 to WC-3+ with WC-3+ graphics. I called him yesterday and haven't got a response yet (but I think he'd go for it)

So I asked LOAF if I could advertize to a yahoo-group I was planning to create, and he told me that under certain circumstances I could, however he told me it would be better to just use this forum.

So with that said. How would people here like hypothetically to have a fan-mod that covered all of WC-1, SM1, SM1.5?, SM-2, The Destruction of the Tiger's Claw, WC-2, SO-1, SO-1, Fleet Action, WC-3, and WC-4? With quality computer generated interactive scenes a'la WC Standoff to provide the closest thing to live-actor scenes in all the WC-games and stuff?

Any opinions?


Victoria Kent,
E-mail: Miracinonyx3@hotmail.com
Click to expand...



Always awesome :)

Of course, the problem is momentum. It's a very long way from idea to execution, especially if you're going to start from scratch. You planning to use an existing/available engine to do this? (FS2, Vision, or or Flight Commander, etc.) Because otherwise, you're going to need to be a pretty damn good programmer to get this done in anything less than a decade.

There are lots of posts tracking the progress of Standoff and WC Saga over the years. Their projects are awesome - and best of all, they're *real* - as in, they have playable content. But note also that the history they're trying to cover 1) does not duplicate existing official WC in-game history (Standoff covers Fleet Action, I think. WC Saga, the period around the Behemoth project and the Temblor bomb run not directly depicted in WC3) and 2) both address a miniscule slice of WC history compared to the mod you're suggesting. Even so, I'm sure the members of both teams will tell you that portraying even a small slice of WC history with care and detail is pretty ambitious! Both projects have been going for years!

If it were me, I'd be careful about doing too close a remake of the specific content of the actual Origin games. The folks at EA (or at least, the group responsible for Arena) seem to be very appreciative of the fan community in a way that we would not have dared to dream! But that doesn't mean EA wouldn't be entitled to sue for copyright infringement for an unsanctioned remake of the old games, especially since they're re-releasing the old titles *and* WC Arena demonstrates that they have not abandoned their intellectual property interest in the series. I, for one, hope they won't bite the hand that feeds them. I hope they will be kind enough to look the other way with respect to Standoff and WC Saga, but I'd be careful about pushing too far on the boundaries of possible fair use. Hopefully, WC Arena will not be the last WC title that EA greenlights.

Don't get me wrong - I like the idea. Just think through it carefully. There is a WC1 remake already in the works and I hope it doesn't get into any trouble, either.
 
Miracynonyx100 said:
Toast,

When did they plan to re-release old titles? How are they going on that? And the Copyright Infringement thing -- how do you avoid coming into conflict with that?

Victoria Kent
E-mail: Miracinonyx3@hotmail.com
Click to expand...

Check the news archives on the CIC over the past few months - I think WC1 and WC4 are being released or have been released on GameTap. The Kilrathi Saga (WC1-3) is windows-compatible and is probably still for sale somewhere out there.

As for cpyrite infr - uh, I dunno. It's not like that's a question I could even pretend to answer in a few minutes. Your best bet is to check the message boards for Saga and Standoff - these people have spent years working on their own projects. I can only imagine the topic came up at least once.

From the stories I've read, cpyrite is really not intended to be friendly to fan projects at all. If you get a cease and desist letter, it's probably game over. That said, one look around the web will bring up tons and tons of fan projects for all sorts of things. Harry Potter fan fiction, Star Trek play-by-email groups, homemade Star Wars movies complete with lightsaber effects, fantasy X-files scripts, Battlestar Galactica CGI movies, Babylon 5 game mods - you name it, and most of it doesn't get shut down. Why? I don't know why. Probably because it's very bad business to alienate your fan base over labors of love as opposed to business.

Other fan projects may have sent letters asking for permission from the owners of the property. I don't know that they ever got any responses.
 
Lucas Film has spelled out exactly what it considers a violation (in terms of movies) and exactly what it doesn't. I would take it off your list of companies who could prosecute - better then anyone I think they understand that people are going to create things, and they're not going to be able to avoid it, so they might as well accept it as much as possible.

That said, I'm going to echo what already got said here. You're better off creating a story from scratch (ALA: Unknown Enemy) covering a story we've heard about but not seen (ALA: Standoff) or covering a Game Story from a new Perspective (ALA: Saga) then trying to cover the whole game series all over again.

Alot of the guys who like and love the early games don't like and love them because of the missions the ships or the characters they get to interact with, it's much deeper then that. They LIKE the pixelated graphics, and the sprites instead of ships, and are happy playing the game that way. Re-making the games is a neat thing, maybe, but it's not going to capture their attention like re-playing the old ones will.
 
This sounds a lot like Wing Commander Universe to me...which ended up being a really neat idea, with about the worst execution in the history of horrible executions. Turned into more of a 'hey, lets take this other sci-fi verses ship and add it too, and oh, what if EVERYONE was able to own the vesuvius? yeah, that'd be awesome!'

Also, not to be a downer, but a project like this would involve an amazing amount of work, more than likely the same level as Pioneer (which after three some odd years we're still in the development process) and finding people that dedicated is a rather rare fare indeed.

Brad
 
Miracynonyx100 said:
So with that said. How would people here like hypothetically to have a fan-mod that covered all of WC-1, SM1, SM1.5?, SM-2, The Destruction of the Tiger's Claw, WC-2, SO-1, SO-1, Fleet Action, WC-3, and WC-4? With quality computer generated interactive scenes a'la WC Standoff to provide the closest thing to live-actor scenes in all the WC-games and stuff?

Any opinions?
Click to expand...
Sorry to be such a spoilsport, but that sounds absolutely unfeasible to me. It's way, way, way beyond the kind of scope that any team could ever realistically commit themselves to.
 
Remakes can be interesting, but the main question that comes to mind is why would you want to? There isn't really that much of a need to redo most of the WC games, in my opinion. Standoff is already taking care of the Fleet Action part, and the destruction of the Tiger's Claw is covered in SM3 (which could use a facelift and briefings and so on, but it's still pretty good).

Why not do something original instead? There are plenty of other interesting ideas that come to mind, like a Kilrathi campaign, or even better, a Firekkan campaign. Or even a human campaign, but with original ideas, like UE. Or a game that would involve the Steltek.
 
One thing that hasn't been done very well or very often is strategic-scale WC. There is an impressive-looking WC4 conversion for Homeworld 2 that looks to be a good sit-down-and-play fleet combat mod, and the original WC: Armada pits 1 carrier against another carrier. I occasionally hear about a mod for a game called Nexus also, but I don't know too much about it myself. It would be cool to be able to see the WC universe from an Admiral's point of view, perhaps more along the lines of a turn-by-turn board game rather than an RTS.

But that too is a pretty complicated project. Staying true to canonical cartography would be a start. It wouldn't be too flashy, but a turn-by-turn text game with randomized battle resolution would be a start, and it's something you really might be able to do by yourself. Even that would take a while to design and tweak, but it'd be a great introduction to game design if you haven't done it before. And then there's the matter of not having an engine to work with (which is why a turn-based-text game is feasible. As far as I know there is no strategic-scale WC engine or even a decent strategic-scale space game engine unless you want to go back and start programming something along the lines of Armada 2525 or Reach for the Stars. The Master of Orion series is basically a prettied-up, complexified version of Armada 2525)

For something bigger than that, you'll need help, and lots of it. Team Standoff seems eager to wrap up their project and get back to their lives. Team Saga has its hands full. Team Pioneer - same, just in an earlier stage of execution.

(To the Standoff, Saga, and Pioneer teams - sorry, I don't mean to speak for you, this is the impression I get from your postings.)
 
Toast,
What was that WC-1 and WC-4 re-release on GameTap? Also what's GameTap?

Are there any rules of thumb as to what would typically get you a Cease and Desist warning?

Additionally, do you have to ask Origin permission before you do any remake?


Jason_Ryock,
What did Lucas Films consider to be Copyright and Not to be Copyright?

Do you require permission from Origin first?


Eder,

You might be right... Still, WC-1 and WC-2 with more advanced grapics and game engine would be pretty awesome.

WC-3 and WC-4 aren't entirely necessary, but the idea was to go more with the Novel storyline, for example having Maj Dillon as a regular pilot, and the Excals added later...


Victoria Kent
E-mail: Miracinonyx3@hotmail.com
 
Toast said:
Team Standoff seems eager to wrap up their project and get back to their lives. Team Saga has its hands full. Team Pioneer - same, just in an earlier stage of execution.

(To the Standoff, Saga, and Pioneer teams - sorry, I don't mean to speak for you, this is the impression I get from your postings.)
Click to expand...
I'm glad I got the right idea across, then. ;)
 
I haven't used or got into the gametap stuff myself but a quick google search got me this
http://www.gametap.com/home/common/whatisgt.jsp

But back to the topic the remake.

The idea itself is neat. I would like it but I would prefere something fresh over a remake.
A far smaller task I would like to see is the recreation of some smaller events like the "Battle for earth", some missions from the TCS Tarawa storyline...such things.

Now comming to the "is it possible" part. Well I don't know what kind of resources you have got. If you have a team of 50 people working 10h a day you can definitly pull of something impressive.
If its only you and you cousin I would see that you start with something smaller. There where a lot of people who liked to do a mod/game but never got very far.
Well its up to you. Show us what you can but I would suggest some serious thoughts first.

@Toast
You impression is right, at least for Saga ^_^
 
Miracynonyx100 said:
Toast,
What was that WC-1 and WC-4 re-release on GameTap? Also what's GameTap?

Are there any rules of thumb as to what would typically get you a Cease and Desist warning?

Additionally, do you have to ask Origin permission before you do any remake?
Click to expand...

I don't really know, actually. I just remember reading it on the CIC news page. I haven't used GameTap - I think it's an online delivery service.

I'm not really sure there are rules of thumb as to what gets you a cease and desist letter. Mostly that depends on how litigious the IP owner is and how valuable they think the property is. Some companies sue at the drop of a hat. Paramount Pictures used to shut down lots of Star Trek fansites. Some, like LucasFilm, do their best to say what's okay and what isn't. Try visiting the EA homepage - maybe they have a policy.

EA acquired Origin and now Origin is just gone, so there's no point in asking Origin - if you're going to ask anyone for permission, I'm guessing you'd write to EA. That said, I'm not aware whether most fan projects ask for permission, whether EA has ever granted permission, or whether EA has ever sent a cease and desist letter to a WC fan project.

I'm sorry, I just don't know the answer to this.
 
Well, I suppose WC1 and WC2 could use some new features and graphics... What I meant was that if you're going to spend a lot of time on a project, you might as well make something new instead. Unless a game badly needs to be remade, remakes shouldn't take too much time and effort, in my opinion.
 
Eder said:
Sorry to be such a spoilsport, but that sounds absolutely unfeasible to me. It's way, way, way beyond the kind of scope that any team could ever realistically commit themselves to.
Click to expand...

It sounds like it would be pretty ambitious even for a dedicated, professional salaried group.

If you really want to try your hand at this sort of thing (and it's absolutely not glamorous at all; it's slow, sometimes depressing work where it's often hard to tell if you've made any progress at all) you need to start at something manageable. Toast has a good idea here; there's a dearth of strategy (precisely three, the WCIV HW2 mod, the old HW Fleet Action mod that stalled years ago, and the PiArmada remake project which also seems to have overextended itself and collapsed.) There have been others, over the years, some of which looked promising but ultimately came to nothing. Still, it's fertile ground, and you could potentially cover the time period and events you're talking about in due course.

What you need to do is actually make a design plan; you don't have one here. I'd hesistate to say it's even an idea; it's closer in tone to a promotional blurb companies use when they don't want to give anything away. What you need is at least the outline of a blueprint; how things are going to work, who what you need to make it work; the unglamorous side. If you don't know anything about programming or art or game design, read a book; if that doesn't sound like a step you're willing to take then you don't have the wherewithall to carry this out. If you have clear ideas and are making clear progress, you won't have to beg for help; they'll come to you. But you need to start it off; nobody else can help you with that part.
 
First,

-Okay, anybody know how litigious EA is?
-Also, anybody who works on WC-mods -- did you have to ask permission?


Second,
-Some ideas...

The WC-1 through WC-2 remake idea sounds like a very good idea to me. Especially if you had WC-3 or greater graphics on it. But the real area that I think would be great to put in would be the Tiger's Claw's final days... including Halcyon's promotion, and him appearing in the pilot's lounge celebrating Earth's first real success, Blair about to be made the Tiger's Claw's WC, the battle where it is destroyed, and where you're being interrogated, court-martial scenes, final verdict and such...

I think another area that could really use to be made into a fan-mod would be the TCS-Concordia's side of the Battle of End-Run and rescuing of the TCS-Tarawa... Fleet Action could be added in as well.

-Character interaction scenes, I'm thinking would be best modeled after WC Standoff. I'm not sure if standoff's 3D models are fully animated and everything -- that would be idea. I was thinking of perhaps using some game engine for the interaction's scenes, like Quake II (or something better, just a hypothetical!), or some kind of game engine which human models can be interacted with eachother. That should be a lot easier than making elaborate renderings and rendering frame and frame and frame.

-Ships and Fighters: I think SWC had great intentions -- Redo WC-1 with cooler graphics. It didn't do the job well -- particularly the Kilrathi ships! But I think that re-doing WC-1 and WC-2 ships with WC-3/-4-/P type styles and graphics would be a good idea. Another good idea would be giving all the carriers a fly-through flight-deck which would be far more practical than anything I saw in WC-1, and WC-2.


Third,
My cousin said I could use his drawings, writings and graphics.


I look forward to opinions and answers,
Victoria Kent: Miracinonyx3@hotmail.com
 
Jason_Ryock said:
That said, I'm going to echo what already got said here. You're better off creating a story from scratch (ALA: Unknown Enemy) covering a story we've heard about but not seen (ALA: Standoff) or covering a Game Story from a new Perspective (ALA: Saga) then trying to cover the whole game series all over again.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more with this. Be creative make your own missions and story, but maybe use some existing ships. I think Standoff sets an excellent example here.

Miracynonyx100 said:
First,
The WC-1 through WC-2 remake idea sounds like a very good idea to me.
Click to expand...


There's an existing Wing Commander 1 remake project going on now, which is a subset of what you proposed, I think. They've got a bunch of Wc1 missions going, but its still a work in progress.

http://www.ciinet.org/kevin/wc1remake/

If you're serious about making a mod, the first step is to choose a game engine
 
Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?

What Robert Browning means is that while your project is an impressive idea, it's ultimately probably doomed. Everyone, ever has at some point entertained this idea. Wouldn't it be great if {Older Wing Commander Game} looked like {Current Game}? It's fun to think about because the gut reaction is: YES! Of course! It takes quite a bit of thinking before you even start to consider that that aint necessarily so. Before we get to that point, though... you need to *start* with at least two things you don't have.

* An actual working idea, a basic plan, something to inspire people to follow your banner. You don't have that right now - you have a few words that we've all put through our brains sometime in the last 17 years. You need big, beautiful, impossible ideas... and a plan for how to accomplish them.

* An actual working development team. I've posted literally dozens of "idea guy needs progammers, artists, designers, writers, actors, pet cats" advertisements on the front page. How many of those were a success? Exactly none of them. The big success stories in Wing Commander - and they've really set the bar high - built *working* teams before ever promising anyone anything. We couldn't have launched even the CIC itself back in 1998 without a regiment that could slaughter and cook a pig without breaking ranks. You need people who will work together to have agreed on a common goal and who have a planned system to work together.

That said, your idea is flawed for several reasons. The first is that it's too big and too obvious. Here's a story I tell a lot because it makes me sound big: back when life was good and I was a terrified seventeen-year-old I was brought to Andy Hollis' office to interview the man who'd just been put in charge of Wing Commander. After spilling my coffee twice and listening to him talk about how he couldn't tell me anything, I asked if he was inerested in using 'fan ideas'. You know them - they're the giant wishlists our communities used to generate. In Privateer 3 you should be able to be a Privateer and a Kilrathi and a Firekkan and you should be able to own a planet and fly every ship ever in Wing Commander and you should get money for playing and the box should be made of cake and so on and so forth. He told me, point blank: no, because fans don't understand how game design works. What sounds *neat* isn't the same thing as what's *fun* and what's *possible*. Just because you've come up with an idea that's *big* doesn't mean it would make a good game... or a possible game.

Consider for a moment that Wing Commander I through IV cost upwards of twenty million dollars - and those were sweet, sweet 1990s dollars! That money bought the best development teams in the world, and it paid them to be incredibly passionate. Can you and your cousin, if they exist, ever hope to dedicate even a tiny percent of that expense? Or that drive?

Next, ask yourself *why*. Who wants a remake of Wing Commander I? Do fans? Not really - you already mentioned Super Wing Commander... fans freaking hate it just for changing tiny graphical elements. Can you figure out how to improve the original game without changing it in the least? Do you understand that your audience is a few hundred hardcore, nitpicking fans and that by all legal rights any work you do can never belong to you? That your name will ever be in lights?

Similarly, do you have the design, art, programming, etc. skill to approximate the indescribable qualities of the original games? Wing Commander isn't great because it made up some specific set of rules that can be easily replicated at Kinkos... it's great because it was an incredibly special point in gaming history where all sorts of absolutely perfect elements happened to come together to make something special. Can you understand that? Can you express that?

The things you're saying are already stupid. Gee, golly, Wing Commander would be perfect if only the original game had fly-through bays! Shut up, shut up, shut up. I'll give you the same advice I give worms: go be dumb in a hole! Not only is this so incredibly specific as to be white-hot-stupid at this point in a design process, it's absolutely wrong - part of Wing Commander I's essential charm is the fact that people are still figuring out how to land on the Tiger's Claw nearly two decades later.

I'll leave you with this thought: I just put more thought into a post about why the project doesn't make sense than you have made available into how and why the project should work. Reflect on that and then post again. The goal here is improvement, but fan projects are scary, multi-year commitments... not cloud talk at all.
 
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