Evidence from WC4 that Blair is a Pilgrim

Porthos

Crazy Nazi Kitten Impaler<BR><IMG SRC="images/rank
Good point, but it seems to me that is something Confed would want to keep secret. Not good for morale for people to learn that the hero is a Pilgrim, and would de facto have certain advantages in space flight that others don't have. Wouldn't make him as special anymore. Would make him the descendent of traitors, too. Just mho.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Hehe, actually, we know that historians in Wing Commander consider John Wayne to have been an actual military hero... Doomsday references this in End Run. Bob McDob and I worked on a 'Pilgrim FAQ' a while back (I don't think we ever published)... the most fun part was opeining it with a John Wayne quote and crediting it to "General John Wayne".

As far as the UBW suddenly appearing in WC4, that doesn't seem like the same kind of stretch as inventing a new religion that's central to the plot line, because many of these worlds on the border were colonies, presumably in the same sense that the European powers in the 19th century had colonies. This had already been established in the previous games. The fact that an organization exists that coordinates their local defense doesn't seem that unusual, especially considering the size of the human-inhabited galaxy. WC IV simply gave them a name and an agenda.
See, you're willing to explain this because you liked Wing Commander IV. Isn't "we never heard about Blair's parents and we never heard about any religion in Wing Commander" an equally reasonable explanation? (That said, I still do find it awkward that systems we visit and defend in the course of the orginal games suddenly have a weird political motive where none was seen before... it's not impossible, but it's a pretty big retcon.)
 

Penta2

Spaceman
LOAF...I know of nobody who regards Galactica 1980 or the Star Wars Holiday Special to be canon to either universe, despite their 'official' production.

I think the opinion of the WC Movie is on the same level.:-P

The difference between WCIV and WCM is that the former was actually palatable. The latter was a waste of a few hours and $30 (including costs for popcorn and soda).
 

Sarty

Rear Admiral
Its amazing how long of a post people can make without an actual point. :D

This discussion is not about whether or not you liked the movie. That has been debated far too much. This is simply about whether or not the Pilgrim reference in WC4 was intentional or not, which I believe is plausible.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
LOAF...I know of nobody who regards Galactica 1980 or the Star Wars Holiday Special to be canon to either universe, despite their 'official' production.
Neither do I -- but I'm not overly familiar with how these fictional universes are developed. Wing Commander, on the other hand...

Certainly, Battlestar Galactica would be an oddity...

(Actually, without knowing whatever Lucas' official position on continuity is, the Holiday Special might be a good analogy -- it wasn't good at all, but it introduced a lot of things that continue to be important in later stories. Boba Fett is the big one -- but things like Chewie's family, introduced in the special, continue to appear in Star Wars fiction to this day. The Wing movie and its related materials improve the continuity in the same way -- the story is pretty uninteresting, but things like the Confed Handbook bring all sorts of cool history for Wing Commander.)
 

Nemesis

Spaceman
It's no more of a stretch than to have Pops imitate Elvis in WCP . . .
Yes it is, because I don’t believe we know (yet:)) of an “Elvis” in WC history who wreaked destruction or waged war upon the Confederation.

A fair example of my point is the word “tsunami”. Following the real thing in late December, with so many people dead, the use of the word in a generic or metaphorical sense pretty much dropped off the radar, which is certainly understandable. The word “Pilgrim” has a similar problem in WC, but I would think even worse. And so I also think it is much more likely than not that a Confed pilot using the word does mean to refer to the Pilgrims of recent history.

That said, and on behalf of my brother-in-law too, the Duke rules!
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Bandit LOAF said:
Actually, without knowing whatever Lucas' official position on continuity is, the Holiday Special might be a good analogy -- it wasn't good at all, but it introduced a lot of things that continue to be important in later stories.
Where they do not conflict with the spirit or fact of the canon, other sources are considered. These sources themselves must be sorted according to an order of precedence. First are the film novelisations and the radio dramas. This material is acceptable where it adds to or simply reiterates what is known from the films. Where they conflict with the films they are in error (except in cases where the film has an obvious blooper). Otherwise the secondary source is in error, and cannot serve as a basis for judging the internal reality of the STAR WARS universe. Such contradictory materials may be of little worth other than as entertainment. According to STAR WARS Encyclopedia, movie-based secondary sources are very close to canon status.

Example said:
Following orders left by the Emperor, Moff Jerjerrod began rotating his Death Star to destroy the sanctuary moon when the rebels managed to eliminate the security deflector shield. He remained bravely at his command station ready to fire the superlaser while his troops and crew evacuated. This scene is in the novel but for some reason it was cut from the film. The film does not contradict it, and indeed the battle station is seen to have rotated so that it almost points groundward by the time it explodes. Thus this is an acceptable part of the greater continuity.
Next in precedence are most of those materials which are based in the time period spanned by the films. This includes the classic-era products from West End Games, the Williamson Classic STAR WARS comics, several of the republished Devilworlds comics, STAR WARS Holiday Special, the TIE Fighter computer games and Shadows of the Empire.
 

FlashFire82

Spaceman
Throwing my two credits in... I believe they're making the referrence in the John Wayne style. I'm not going to give the writers of WC4 so much credit as to say that they preempted the dawn of the "Pilgrim" concept of the movie. But I believe the point that LOAF and others are trying to make is this - do we have a choice about whether or not to accept the movie as cannon? After all... same creators and all that. I like to ignore the WC movie as cannon simply because I feel they neglected too much (in my opinion) of what made the games good in their plot. But... everyone's entitled to their opinion... but I can see how it can be difficult to not accept the movie as cannon.
 

Sarty

Rear Admiral
FlashFire82 said:
I'm not going to give the writers of WC4 so much credit as to say that they preempted the dawn of the "Pilgrim" concept of the movie.
LOAF already stated that the WCM script had already been written at that time. So we dont need to give them credit for the Pilgrim concept, just acknowledge that they might have known about it and added this little bonus. It is possible, who knows.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Eh, I really don't think it's likely -- it's just a fun connection to make after the fact (as I said much earlier, akin to "Blair" showing up as a Tiger's Claw pilot in Freedom Flight).
 

TheRedDuke

Spaceman
LeHah said:
Shadows of the Empire.
The reason I bought an N64 at launch.

Now a question, although not necessarily relevant - when we refer to Blair's parents in the context of the Pilgrim religion, are we talking about his late parents or his adopted ones (from Academy)?
 

Death

gh0d (Administrator)
TheRedDuke said:
Now a question, although not necessarily relevant - when we refer to Blair's parents in the context of the Pilgrim religion, are we talking about his late parents or his adopted ones (from Academy)?
Blair's biological mother, Devi Soulsong, was a Pilgrim. His biological father was a Confed officer, and contributed to the Grand Fleet used to defeat the Pilgrims.
 

Mjr. Whoopass

<FONT color=lightblue><B>I was going to say someth
Bandit LOAF said:
Eh, I really don't think it's likely -- it's just a fun connection to make after the fact (as I said much earlier, akin to "Blair" showing up as a Tiger's Claw pilot in Freedom Flight).
I agree, it is a fun connection to make- regardless of whether or not it was originally intended to be a reference to John Wayne. I still remember the excitement I had upon hearing it for the first time. It was an awesome surprise- even if it was only a happy coincidence. If you love John Wayne, you can imagine it as being a reference to him. If you liked the WCM (even though you think it could've been done MUCH better), you can imagine it as a personal taunt to Blair as it references his Pilgrim background. One might argue that "Pilgrim" could also be a general rather than personal insult to any pilot of the BW's, since the BW's likely would contain large populations of Pilgrims. Just a theory...

And for another theory... Ironically, the Pilgrim story might also explain the tensions that suddenly exist between Confed and BW in WC4- tensions that may have been strong if the BW's represent Pilgrim worlds that fought Confed before the Kilrathi war. The Pilgrims were known to travel far distant regions of space- who would live in the outermost "border worlds"? Pilgrims. It would make sense that little mention would be made in WC1-3 since it would probably be taboo to mention it since either side must trust in each other (and have probably already proven trustworthy in pre- WC1 times ) to work together and defeat the Kilrathi. We watch the tensions between the two sides get patched up during WCM and healed for WC1-3. When the Kilrathi war is over, the WC4 era shows the ignored, "under the surface" tensions erupt.
***These are theories I made just for the joy of extrapolating, and I'm not proposing they're "canon" (no pictures please ;) ). It appears to be a rational way of justifying the sudden addition of the Pilgrim story in WCM and the sudden addition of the Border Worlds in WC4.
 

Mordecai

Spaceman
IMHO the Pilgrim ideal was a completely unnecessary addition to the WCM and would not have been missed if removed. The spinoff books blew it all outta proportion, making everything drift away from the original story. Don't get me wrong, I love the movie (except for the idea that a Snakeir carrier can overtake a fighter ship, but I'm sure that's been complained about hundreds of times on this site) but I feel the Pilgrim aspect was a later addition, something the boys threw in while possibly playing WC4 and said 'Hey, that sounds kinda cool , let's expand on that eh?'


"When does your shift end, Uhlie"
 

FlashFire82

Spaceman
I dunno... the movie had some nice aspects... and I think I enjoyed the pilgrim plot line. If nothing else... it does explain the aspect of Blair being such of a phenomenal.pilot. And, in a strange science-fiction sort of way... it makes sense. If people are constantly travelling the stars, sooner or later, they're going to start getting better at it. Evolution in action. :)

PS - Do not use that last line to open up a debate on evolution. And if it does happen - I claim no responsbility.
 

Nemesis

Spaceman
What an exciting prospect! By all means let’s devote ourselves to deconstructing WC on the basis of whether its established plot elements are “necessary”. For example–

Was making the Kilrathi a “cat-like” species necessary? Certainly more irony and drama could have been squeezed out of a subjugated animal, like the chicken, cow, or horse.

Was the name “Tiger’s Claw” necessary? I mean, I guess a tiger can kill with one claw, but the name certainly implies weakness if not impotence. (And don’t get me started on the obvious fact the name–appropriately translated–would have made more sense for a Kilrathi ship to begin with.)

Was Angel’s death necessary? Certainly it would have been more dramatic and satisfying rescuing her while at the same time destroying Kilrah.

And speaking of Kilrah, was its destruction necessary? For crying out loud, that ended the war. Imagine all the “additional” campaigns against this interesting enemy that could have been ours to win.

Yes, fiction should only comprise plots, characters, and actions that are necessary. (Almost makes me want to start an “off-topic” thread on Shakespeare. Been wanting to tear that guy down for years. Romeo and Juliet both die? Outrageous!)
 
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