EU Constitution

P

Porthos

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Never thought I'd see the day:

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Well, that's interesting.

I'd like to see someone with more knowledge of the subject -- which is to say, Quarto if he gets a chance -- explain how the EU came about so quickly. In the case of France, it has always seemed to be an anathema to anything I've ever experienced of their culture or history...
 
Just check out previous attemtps to creat an 'united' Europe, and it explains itself fairly easy.
 
Doesn't surprise me one bit. The way the EU is currently reigned shows a incredible degree of ignorance versus the peoples problems. When concerns are raised the response is usually in the line of "well they just don't understand it and what we do is the right thing". Additionally about everyone has something to loose with the EU constitution. Like neutrality in the case of Austria. Our government knew very well why they did NOT allow us to vote on the matter (albeit it looks like that our own constitution would demand for such a vote) as they knew it wouldn't be pro constitution.
 
Those results are very interesting indeed. It's no surprise that 'yes' won in Alsace... but what happened in Bretagne? That seems like it should have been a guaranteed 'no', given that they are the most conservative region in France (they're the ones that fought for the King during the revolution).

Bandit LOAF said:
I'd like to see someone with more knowledge of the subject -- which is to say, Quarto if he gets a chance -- explain how the EU came about so quickly. In the case of France, it has always seemed to be an anathema to anything I've ever experienced of their culture or history...
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Just as I was nearing an end to my reply, my computer crashed, so I'm afraid you're going to get the short version... which is probably for the best. Much as I like to lecture people about stuff like this, I'm not an expert on the EU, and all in all, this news article explains how and why this process happened far better than I ever could.

Just a few more details that, IMO, are needed to fully understand what happened - the EU is very much a consequence of the situation after WWII. Germany was basically in the position of a criminal fresh out of jail, looking for a way to rehabilitate themselves in the international community. France, on the other hand, had lost everything - since the start of the 20th century, they had watched themselves go from super-power to a third-rate regional power. Sure, they had a permanent seat in the UN security council and all that, but it wasn't much of a consolation after the defeat of WWII (...and WWI, and the war of 1870 - they had lost three wars to Germany in a row), and after the loss of their global empire. So, it was almost natural that France and Germany would get together.

I also believe that the reason why the French government (probably not the people - IIRC, it wasn't until the 1990s that the French people were asked about anything EU-related in a referendum) was so eager and willing to develop this alliance further (and invite other countries into it) was because they thought they weren't building a European Union, but rather a sort of mega-France. Heck, the original six member states, taken together, bear an uncanny resemblence to Charlemagne's empire - and there was a lot of Charlemagne references back in those early years.
 
I remember joking with my friends that the EU would keep Germany from beating France again.

I'm very happy that it failed, I'm just very surprised that it failed in France, what with all the politicking being done for it by Chirac, et al.

Good article, Quarto. Thanks.
 
Porthos said:
I'm very happy that it failed, I'm just very surprised that it failed in France, what with all the politicking being done for it by Chirac, et al.
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Yeah, I was surprised about that too. But if you think about it, it does make sense, given the French national character - the more everyone told the French to vote 'yes', the less likely a 'yes' vote became.
 
My knowledge of the national character of France has something to do with the phrase, "Cheese eating surrender monkeys." :p

So, the French tend to be "Don't tell me what to do" types? They're like Americans? Mon Dieu!
 
I think a lot of our answers would come from the actual EU Constitution - but isn't it something like 700 pages?
 
LeHah said:
I think a lot of our answers would come from the actual EU Constitution - but isn't it something like 700 pages?
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Nope. The content of the constitution is probably the thing that had the least influence in the vote. Most people know nothing about the constitution. The vote(s) are against the national parlaments and against the behemoth EU as a whole. The problem is that for most parts of the EU the EU itself is kinda seen as that big faceless evil for many people. And national governments often do their best to strengthen that view by blaming stuff on the EU which they are responsible themselve.
 
Oh I agree with you. It's still a lot of pages of constitution.

I wish I knew more about the EU though. I was confused why France voted no on the constitution. Was it not France and Germany that started the whole thing as some sort of treaty where they shared coal and steel?
 
Voted against wednesdays (I'm Dutch). I don't want to be ruled by some bureaucrats from a foreign country, I'm all opposed to the communist state they're trying to form in Europe. Let countries be countries, there is a good reason why the borders in Western Europe are as they are now. Leave EU for economical guidelines but don't tell me to give my money to some lazy French farmer.
 
Shipgate said:
Oh I agree with you. It's still a lot of pages of constitution.

I wish I knew more about the EU though. I was confused why France voted no on the constitution. Was it not France and Germany that started the whole thing as some sort of treaty where they shared coal and steel?
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That was the original ECCS, if I remember correctly. That was the true spirit of the EU, we don't have to become like the United States. Not because the 'US is bad', but because the people of the US are truly Americans. I'm not European, I'm Dutch.
 
Fruitcake said:
Voted against wednesdays (I'm Dutch). I don't want to be ruled by some bureaucrats from a foreign country, I'm all opposed to the communist state they're trying to form in Europe.
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Communist? I dunno, but communist istn't exatly the term I'd first come up with when thinking about the EU. Rather the opposite - negative capitalism - reignship of multinational corporations.
I can see where you are comming from tho when you talk about Communist tendencies as well.
 
This isn't all that surprising to me, maybe it's because I'm not well versed in the history of the EU. Most of my experience comes from talking to the Germans while I lived there, and from what I gathered it was the government, not the people who wanted all of this to go through. I was there when they changed over from the Deutsch Mark to the Euro and most of the people I knew either didn't like it one bit, or didn't care, but I certainly don't recall anyone being excited to get new money.
 
Not because the 'US is bad', but because the people of the US are truly Americans.
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It took the bloodiest war in our history to make that the case, though. The EU might do well to learn from that experience.
 
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