Ethical Quandry.

frostytheplebe

Seventh Part of the Seal
As some of you have known for a time, I am a collector of antiques spanning from the Inquisitions all the way up to 1945. I have firearms, including ancient muskets, as well as other quite rare pieces. But recently I have come in to posession of something quite valuable... but at the same time quite controversial. It is an original Nazi emblem flown on one of their warships. The flag is burned, somewhat torn, and even has stains of what looks like blood on it. But it is still in decent shape.

My current girl friend has asked me to get rid of it multiple times but I refuse. She says it's a simple of hate, I say a modern one is a symbol of hate while an original is actually a symbol of the past, a piece of history that should never be forgotten. It keeps becoming issue every time i go in to my museum room... should I get rid of it?
 
It's your call.. But I have to admit that I hate this sign..

I'm from Poland and Polish people suffered a lot from nazi Germans.

My aunt was sent to concetration camp and my grandfather fought against the Germands. Perhaps it is more real for me here than for people who only heard of it..

Anyway, I'd burn it in a instant.. or at least take it to a museum or somehing..

Regards
 
Hmm, that's a tough one. It sounds like you've got quite the impressive collection there, and if this one item is such a sticking point in an important relationship, maybe you ought to donate it to a museum. Some place that'll preserve it. Of course it also sounds like an interesting piece of history. Any idea which ship it flew on?
 
Hmm.

First up, there's nothing wrong with having swastikas somewhere in your collection. It's pretty natural that they come up on WWII-related stuff - you only need to look into a history book to see one, after all.

So, if we were talking about something like an Iron Cross or some other medal, I don't think the swastika would be a problem.

But flags are... special. They're not merely decorated with a symbol, they are the symbol. There used to be a fine tradition of displaying captured enemy flags - people were actually proud to be able to show off the enemy flag, especially military flags. But this was in a different time, when flags represented people, not ideologies.

Your situation is different. First up, you had nothing to do with capturing this flag. You're a collector. Do you even know the history of this flag? Do you know what ship it came from? You, as a person, simply have no right to show off this flag. You didn't capture it, you didn't obtain it as a gift from the people who captured it - you bought it. All in all, even though you're unquestionably the flag's owner, in some way I don't think you even have the right to own this flag - it's just not yours to keep. Secondly, there is the specific nature of the Nazi ideology. The only similar thing in the world is the Soviet Union. This flag was intended to represent something very evil.

However, while I would not display it inside my home, I also would not burn it. Apart from representing something evil, it also represents many good and noble people - the crew of the ship in question. They proudly served their country, not participating in a genocide, but simply protecting the people they loved from the enemy.

I think you should do your best to find out more about this flag. Is it possible to trace it back and find out what ship used it? Then, once you've found out all you could, donate it to a museum dealing with naval history.
 
Like Quarto says, contact a military museum, and inform you have it and donate it. While weapons are cool stuff and all, A swastika-flag is a no-go for display in your own home, just like death-camp pictures.
 
Some thoughts by me:

I think I would either donate it to a museum, especially if I knew which ship it belonged to, or I would store it somewhere in a box.

I would certainly not display it.
But of course that's partly because I am German and I don't want to have such a flag of the Nazis. As most Germans I'm not proud of what the Nazis did. And I really understand people who say they would destroy it.

However, as it is a piece of history, I would not destroy it. For me that just feels wrong.

You said it is valuable, so I suppose you paid some money to get it, so I would understand if you want to keep it instead of giving it to a museum. But as I said before, I would put it into a box.

Your girlfriend hates it. So you might want to put it away to avoid arguments in your home.
 
Just a little addition on my part - while I think this flag probably should find its way to a museum, I strongly disagree with Aginor's statement that it shouldn't be destroyed because it is a piece of history.

I don't disagree with his statement that you shouldn't destroy this flag - but I completely disagree with the reasoning. I don't think age is in any way a factor - merely being old doesn't mean something should be preserved, regardless of whether we're talking months, years, or thousands of years. Yes, things get more valuable with age - but that's only because people are impressed by things being older than they are. However, if you think that this flag should have been burnt in 1945, then it still needs to be burnt in 2009, no matter how much more valuable it's become. And if you don't think it should have been burnt in 1945, then it still shouldn't be burnt now.
 
If it is of value to you, keep it. If it is of greater value to others, sell it. I'm interested in militaria myself, but i actually find flags to be the most useless pieces. Its basically a colorful picture on a piece of cloth, it doesn't provide any information about technology, fashion or art of the time, but thats my opinion.
I really wouldn't have it hang around at my home though, simply because Neonazis do it as well. The intent is different , but i'd hate to have to explain the difference to everyone who sees it.
 
This flag was intended to represent something very evil.

I totally agree with You Quarto on this one

They proudly served their country, not participating in a genocide, but simply protecting the people they loved from the enemy.

Following this reasoning we could say that 80% of Germans fought just to protect the people they loved.. in the war that Hitler waged (by himself?).

Remember that nazi propaganda turned most of the Germans to: Jew/Polish/Gipsy (and so on) haters, trying to expand their territory by any means.

I don't believe they were just mere soliders. Judging by how they act in conquered Poland, I'd say 50% hated us and 90% thought that we are inferior.. (I think that Kilrathi were inpired by them in some way too)

However, like you previously wrote Quarto, the Nazis were not the only one in Europe at that time.. Soviets were comparable..
 
Following this reasoning we could say that 80% of Germans fought just to protect the people they loved.. in the war that Hitler waged (by himself?).

Remember that nazi propaganda turned most of the Germans to: Jew/Polish/Gipsy (and so on) haters, trying to expand their territory by any means.

I don't believe they were just mere soliders. Judging by how they act in conquered Poland, I'd say 50% hated us and 90% thought that we are inferior.. (I think that Kilrathi were inpired by them in some way too)
I say they must all be judged on an individual basis. We know more than a few American and English soldiers raped French civilians while liberating France, and we know that American soldiers did occasionally kill surrendering Germans (even those who had already been disarmed). But here's the thing - nobody has ever gone ahead and claimed that all American and English soldiers, regardless of what they did during the war, are good men because they fought for the good side. We take it for granted that there were bad apples in there, and we neither try to pretend that they were actually good apples, nor do we deny their existence.

The same goes for the Soviets - we (especially, us, the Polish), are more than willing to acknowledge that everywhere the Soviet army marched, rape and looting followed. We're equally willing to point out the horrible fate of German prisoners of war, who, for the most part, never returned home. But, we also don't try to whitewash the fact that, you know, they did liberate half of Europe, and they showed an incredible courage, tenacity, and willingness to sacrifice themselves in the process. We accept the good with the bad. Furthermore, we (again, especially us, the Polish, who know the ins and outs of life under a totalitarian government) never, ever equate Soviet soldiers with Soviet leadership. We know the Soviets came both to liberate us and to enslave us - but we're generally willing to acknowledge that the Soviet soldiers did the liberating, while the Soviet leadership took care of the enslaving. I don't think anyone would argue that Soviet soldiers wanted to occupy and enslave Poland.

So, in those cases, we absolutely refuse to generalise.

But the German soldiers, they are always treated as an exception. There doesn't seem to be anyone out there willing to defend them - especially the German people have turned their backs upon their fathers and grandfathers. It's open season on them - we hear of German war crimes, and we immediately assume all Germans are responsible. We know most Germans were drafted into the army, but we somehow assume that deep down, they all wanted to go on a killing spree across half of Europe. That just doesn't work. For every German who was an ideological, convinced Nazi and considered the Polish to be inferior, there's probably about ten who were ordinary people like you and I. Some of those ordinary people, of course, hated the Polish - but they did so for the very ordinary reasons of political and economic rivalry. It didn't help that we gave them additional good reasons to hate them, constantly harassing the German city of Danzig and refusing to accept the will of its German inhabitants.

And yes, most Germans had the right to feel they were fighting for a good cause - the defence of their homeland. Look at it this way. The Americans went into Vietnam - they invaded. Most Americans felt this was wrong, and strongly protested. But what if, during the course of that war, Vietnam had somehow managed to raise twenty million soldiers and invade America? Would it be morally better for Americans to calmly lie down and endure the Vietnamese occupation, consoling themselves by saying "well, this is all our fault"? Or would it instead be better morally for Americans to fight the war to a victory, in order to protect their loved ones from the Vietnamese? Two wrongs don't make a right - just because your country started the war, does not mean you're not obliged to defend your people when the enemy firebombs your cities. I'm willing to bet that all those hippie protesters of the Vietnam era would, within a week of the Vietnamese invasion, volunteer to fight on the front lines. And this is the case in Germany, too. Hitler had his reasons to start the war, and certainly the ideological Nazis fought the war for Hitler's reasons. But most Germans simply understood that regardless of who started the war, the only way to protect their families was to fight.
 
You could also loan it to a museum instead of donating it. I would say keep it, but if you are quite serious with this girl, then a naval museum is the way to go. And depending on the museum, it may have a little plaque saying it was donated by you next to it.
 
Is this the emblem with the iron cross in the corner? I certainly wouldn't display the flag, but the Kriegsmarine was perhaps the least Nazified branch of the German armed forces. If it is distinctly a Kiegsmarine flag, I'd have less objection to it. If it was an SS flag, jeez, I'd likely put it in a safe and bury it in the yard.

In any event, I'd ensure that the Kriegsmarine ensign isn't destroyed. Good people served and died honorably under that banner, and destroying history does nothing to promote the cause of good.

A museum would be a good choice, there are plenty of great museums that would love to have something like this added to their collection, if only to discover where it might have come from.
 
Quarto, I think you got me a bit wrong. Of course it is not a piece of history just because it is old. But that flag isn't just old. I see it as a peace of history. For me it would be of the same historical value if it had been the flag of the ARA General Belgrano or something similar (meaning it would be just as old as I am, not 60+ years) so it isn't just about age. It is what the flag participated in.


About what you said about the German soldiers and how they are seen today:
I know what my grandfathers fought for. And they weren't bad people. I think you are right.
But the problem is that if you say something as simple as your posting in a German web forum you could be banned and they would call you a Nazi. Just like a lot of people would do in the streets. I hate that, because I think you are right. But Germans are not allowed to speak like that. There is no law prohibiting it, but some sort of consensus in our society, that says:
"Germans between 1930 and 1945 were evil. All of them. Especially all soldiers. And it is impossible that any good was done by Germans in that period of time. Except they were fighting the Nazis openly or with assassination attempts."

I'm thankful for your posting and I appreciate that there are people who think like you do, even in Poland, where there are lots of people who have good reasons to hate Germans, and I don't blame them.
I hope some day it will be ok to say such things in Germany. But that will take time. At the moment children in our schools are taught that they are evil because they are Germans. I don't know how to translate it properly to english, they call it "Gesamtschuld der Deutschen", it means "collective guilt of all Germans".

....I get into a depressive state every time I think about it, because I love my country and want to defend it. But it is so discouraging when the people you are trying to defend hate you for that....
 
Time will heal that wound (not necessarily others) and I am positive that in 50 years, Germans will have a more normal approach to patriotism without forgetting about their forefathers deeds. Always keep in mind that this all happened only 70 years ago, that's not too much time that has passed since then.
 
We know more than a few American and English soldiers raped French civilians while liberating France

More than few? This was something normal when Germans overtook Poland.. along with mass killing of innocent civilians and the use of death camps to exterminate even more. I haven't heard of American death camps, have you?

For every German who was an ideological, convinced Nazi and considered the Polish to be inferior, there's probably about ten who were ordinary people like you and I

People are not born good or bad.. they become one of it..

War changes people, you do things you would normally never think of, especially when knowing that no one can touch you.. I wouldn't bet on 10 to 1 ratio.


And they weren't bad people

Thanks to some "not a bad people" half of my family died and some of them a very unpleasant death, you know..

I think we started to talk about a very complicated matters: war, crime, good and evil, history.. I better leave those topics for some other chat ;) face to face preferably

Sorry if I sound a little bit bitter, I am normally a nice guy. Talking about the war tends to change me like that. As a matter of fact, I'm not going to post on this thread anymore..
 
Thanks to some "not a bad people" half of my family died and some of them a very unpleasant death, you know..

I think we started to talk about a very complicated matters: war, crime, good and evil, history.. I better leave those topics for some other chat ;) face to face preferably

Sorry if I sound a little bit bitter, I am normally a nice guy. Talking about the war tends to change me like that. As a matter of fact, I'm not going to post on this thread anymore..

There seems to be a lot of hate, political ideological clashing etc. etc. going on. So let me make a few things clear...

1. The flag has the iron cross on it in the corner. I contacted the person i bought it from and he is going to look through some old documents. He said it was on either an old cruiser or destroyer.

2. My own Grandfather was in the 82nd during WW2. He fought in North Africa, D-Day and Buldge. He also took part in the attack on Berlin. He made it to Staff Sgt. and earned multiple medals including a silver star for his part. During his time there, the 320th Glider division also aided in the Liberation of one of the Camps.

3. I do not have the flag hung up. It's folded neatly in a glass case.
 
There seems to be a lot of hate, political ideological clashing etc. etc. going on. So let me make a few things clear...

1. The flag has the iron cross on it in the corner. I contacted the person i bought it from and he is going to look through some old documents. He said it was on either an old cruiser or destroyer.

2. My own Grandfather was in the 82nd during WW2. He fought in North Africa, D-Day and Buldge. He also took part in the attack on Berlin. He made it to Staff Sgt. and earned multiple medals including a silver star for his part. During his time there, the 320th Glider division also aided in the Liberation of one of the Camps.

3. I do not have the flag hung up. It's folded neatly in a glass case.

Interesting. No simple answers here. I'd say it's about... what does the flag mean to you, to your girlfriend, and maybe to society. I'm biased and Jewish, but here it goes.

For example, say it was something your grandfather had captured. It would then be a symbol of liberation, since he had captured it, and it would have special meaning to you.

There are those who deny the Holocaust. So by preserving this evidence, you combat them, and you are preserving history, in hopes that we might learn from the past. That itself is a noble goal.

Artistic merit: The sound of music displays the Swastika, for example.

You might consider where the money is going when you bought this. Is the money going to someone who is promoting bigotry? Are you considering those impacts?

Without necessary background information, some might assume because you display this symbol, you are promoting bigotry and discrimination. Possibly, your girlfriend is in this camp. So you might consider her feelings and what she means to you.

Suggest you and the girlfriend talk about what having this artifact means to both of you. There could be a compromise... keep this for history's sake, but out of public view.
 
Interesting. No simple answers here. I'd say it's about... what does the flag mean to you, to your girlfriend, and maybe to society. I'm biased and Jewish, but here it goes.

For example, say it was something your grandfather had captured. It would then be a symbol of liberation, since he had captured it, and it would have special meaning to you.

There are those who deny the Holocaust. So by preserving this evidence, you combat them, and you are preserving history, in hopes that we might learn from the past. That itself is a noble goal.

Artistic merit: The sound of music displays the Swastika, for example.

You might consider where the money is going when you bought this. Is the money going to someone who is promoting bigotry? Are you considering those impacts?

Without necessary background information, some might assume because you display this symbol, you are promoting bigotry and discrimination. Possibly, your girlfriend is in this camp. So you might consider her feelings and what she means to you.

Suggest you and the girlfriend talk about what having this artifact means to both of you. There could be a compromise... keep this for history's sake, but out of public view.

Eddieb, thats one of the most unbiased answers I've heard yet. To answer your questions, it was purchased, by me from an antique store for a very agreeable price... think the guy was just trying to get rid of it. I've done buisness with this man for a long time and I do not believe he is a biggot. I've purchased many things from him... including some rather impressive Civil war pieces including a harper's ferry pistol. As far as I know he's just a mom and pop antique dealer who carves out a decent living buying and selling what he loves.

In terms of my own ideology, I have no biases against anyone particular group of people... well thats not entirely true, PC far left wing, and holocaust deniers are pretty high on my list of distain. Personally, I've seen true history take a back seat to PC. How? Go buy a model german warship from WW2 and take a look at the flag or symbols. They either have a blank white circle or an Iron cross where the swatstika should be. To me, that is a perversion of history, so when I buy the models and build them, I paint the correct symbol on them to show historical accuracy. It starts there, but how long until PC starts blurring out Nazi flags and hitler's face in historic videos? How long until these flags are burned by law and this part of history is forgotten? Am I being an alarmist and overdramatic? Perhaps, i've certainly been told as such before... on the other hand, it's already begun... The following link will show you that schools have already begun to scrub the holocaust from their lesson plan: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1600686.ece
I find such things offensive as it insults the memory of over 6 million people who died. But it's a movement that has already begun to infect schools here in the states. I know it's perhaps nothing big, but safe guarding a small bit of that history to make sure it is remembered is very important to me. Ok rant over. :p

I'm not sure what it is with her about this, she even put up a stink about my guns, but as many of them are "Bring backs" my Grandfather owned, I made it perfectly clear that she goes before they do. Sounds cold, but I'm not willing to part with anything "family history" nor should I be expected to.

As for displaying it... i don't think so. It is locked in a room with cabinets full of antiques that I had collected. Though now I am considering a museum for it... perhaps battleship cove would like it, or someone like that. Either way, I want to thank everyone here. Your insights have been quite helpful in deciding what to do.
 
War changes people, you do things you would normally never think of, especially when knowing that no one can touch you.. I wouldn't bet on 10 to 1 ratio.

Thanks to some "not a bad people" half of my family died and some of them a very unpleasant death, you know..
Look, it would be very difficult to find anyone in Poland who wasn't affected by the war.

...However, you are entirely missing my point. I don't want to whitewash the Germans. I don't want to pretend the war was less brutal than it was. What I am saying is that every single German deserves to be judged as an individual. If you refuse them that, if you just assume that they were all evil - then you are one of them. The single worst thing that the nazis and communists (which is really the same thing) did to us in Poland is to infect us with their collectivist ideology. If you're not willing to treat the Germans as individuals, then the nazis have already done worse than killing you - they've made you one of them.

After a war as terrible as this one, it's incredibly tempting to succumb to revenge. In the first years after the war, some people in Poland actively campaigned to put an end to capitalising the word "German" - they wanted the entire country to regard Germans as a morally inferior nation that does not deserve to be treated grammatically the same as the rest of the world. This kind of thing is natural, but it's still wrong.

I'm a Christian, a Catholic. I was raised to believe that all human beings are equal - equally wounded and sinful in their nature, but equally free to save themselves from evil. More than that, I was raised to belive that redemption is freely given to anyone, if only they want it. Doing evil does not make you evil, it just makes you human. This is a point of view Hitler tried his hardest to eliminate - that's why so many Catholic priests ended up dying in concentration camps. The last thing I'm going to do is let Hitler have his victory by adopting his point of view. I suggest you think about that.

But the problem is that if you say something as simple as your posting in a German web forum you could be banned and they would call you a Nazi. Just like a lot of people would do in the streets. I hate that, because I think you are right.
Well, if it makes you feel better, I'd expect a similar (though less intense) reaction in most places in the world. As I mentioned above, responding to LarkInFlight, it's pretty natural for people to melt together the notions of doing evil and being evil. But it is also immoral - there is something very nazi about the German policy of collective guilt. And it's dangerous, because it produces a backlash (that's why you keep on having problems with neo-nazis in Germany).

....I get into a depressive state every time I think about it, because I love my country and want to defend it. But it is so discouraging when the people you are trying to defend hate you for that....
Well, that's always been the challenge. If your country loved you because you want to defend it, that would be easy. It's much harder to defend your country even when it hates you for it - but it's only when you're willing to do that that you'll know you're a real patriot.
 
I find such things offensive as it insults the memory of over 6 million people who died.

Well over. Try more like 12, and that's just counting the civilians that were actively targeted by German policies (as opposed to just being "collateral damage" or those directly involved in the fighting). Not only the Jewish, but homosexuals, the mentally ill, terminally ill people, the Rom (more commonly known as gypsies), and others who were classified as untermenschen (sp?) by the Nazi party.

[smartass]The Jews just had better publicists post-war.[/smartass] :p
 
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