EPISODE 3 Discussion

PopsiclePete

Mission programmer
The whole Extended Universe debate is fun. It's like bashing the next WC game because the game designers would not have taken Unknown Enemy and Standoff into account.

"Man, that new WC game is disapointing... the Border Worlds militia doesn't even have Viper Cannons... "
 

Jason_Ryock

Vice Admiral
I never said anywhere in my post that the ARC-170 appeared in Vehicles and Vessels. What I said was that Lucas forced Grevious and the ARC-170 to be EU Material when he released them - FIRST - outside of the movies (which according to him are the only things canon). This I believe is an inherent mistake, their debut should have been in the movie, no matter how much tie-in material you attempt to make. Anf if you read my post again - or maybe for the first time giving what you're talking about - my specific complain was that Grevious was coughing. This threw alot of people off in the theatre I was in. I've had to explain it to everyone I know whose seen the movie. That was straight from the EU, and it made it into the movie.

And as for tie-in material, it's still Expanded Universe no matter how you look at it. The Movies, the Novelizations, and the Radio Drama are the only things that George Lucas considers to be canon (which in and of itself is interesting as they contradict each other in a number of places). So Grevious and the ARC-170 make their first appearance as EU Characters. It's the same with the 501st, which is the Clone Division used to attack the Jedi Temple, and has for many many years been the name of the costumed Stormtrooper Club, and has ANOTHER Reference in an EU book. So where do the EU refrences stop and start? I understand the Movies are George Lucas creation, but he's taken his ability to decide what gets included and what doesn't beyond the limits of human endurance. It's like he's picking and choosing what he includes JUST to piss people off.

ARC-170: Just a quite note, you haven't seen Season Two if you think the ARC-170 isn't in the Clone Wars. It featured quite prominently in the series. And now that it's mentioned I'm actually fairly certain that it's not in the movie, though the Novelization (according to Lucas) can also be considered canon, and the name probably appears in the Novel, having not read it I can neither confirm nor deny this fact. I said probably).

Regarding Return of the Jedi: I've seen the movie. And that paticular space battle. Alot. There's nothing from X-Wing Alliance in those scenes. In fact, the scenes for the Special Edition have been changed very little since the original movie. I'm not sure where your complaint comes from that X-Wing Alliance changed the Special Edition, given that Alliance was released hardly a month or two before the ROTJ Special Edition came out I don't think this accusation flies.

I've always taken the video games with a grain of salt - have you even played the Episode I game? If you haven't, you should try it. It's a fairly amusing diversion for an hour, mostly to see how far away from the movie it can go. You'll probably get sick of it about when I did: when you spend an entire level running through a gungun city and you lose the game if you kill any of them. But hey, we're talking about Tie-In Material, so let's talk about tie-in material. Where was Kochiro? Where was the Bridge? Where was the spaceport that Delta Squad was holding up for the Confederation Forces to land out? Yoda clearly gives orders for them to form up around Delta Squad, who are "reinserted" into the mix. Fine, leave Delta Squad out of the movie. That's acceptable. But for Yoda's sake, where are the bloody TREES? That's right, TREES. Kashyyyk is supposed to be covered by TREES. Giant Ones. And the Surface is supposed to be inhospitable. It's that way in Republic Commando, which is a tie-in to the movie. So why did Kashyyyk suddenly and inexplicable change in the five seconds between the game and the movie it's a Tie-In? Because a tree-covered Kashyyyk is an EU creation. In fact, in case you didn't know, Kashyyyk itself is an EU creation. And not in the same way Coruscant is - while Timothy Zahn put only a name on the City Planet of Coruscant, he created the full background for Kashyyyk. A background that has been used countless times for other Star Wars stories. (In fact, I have it from an unconfirmed Source that the data about Kashyyyk being covered with trees is part of the Star Wars Handbook they give out to people writing in the Star Wars Universe. Now, I'm not going to argue with you over what George Lucas looks at and sees that goes into that book, but it sure strikes me that if he could put Yoda in Republic Commando, and have the Clone Wars end five seconds before the Movie, Kashyyyk in Republic Commando could have looked like it did in the movie, instead of like it does in the rest of the EU.).

Now, about the ARC-170. I think the ARC-170 is a perfect logical step from the Republic Gunships (LAAT's) to the X-Wing. Here's my problem with that. Episode III takes place 16-21 years (I'm not going to argue about the date, accept whichever date you want, I know I have. I've heard a number of differant theories and I don't want to discuss them here, so I'm including all possible dates to avoid another useless arguement) BEFORE the Original Trilogy. It certainly didn't take Incom that long to mass-produce the ARC-170 between EPII and EPIII (which is around three years). I have a hard time with them taking the ARC-170 and moving to the X-Wing, and taking twenty years to do so. Further compouding the problem is the Z-95, which by the way does not have Swing Wings the same way the X-Wing does (or I suppose in proper technical terminology, Variable Geometry Wings). It doesn't make sense to take the ARC-170 and turn it into the Z-95. I'm okay with that too, there's alot of inconsistancies between the movies and the EU I'm not going to bitch about. But when they're screw with themselves, something needs to be said.

And that's my big problem with EP3, it screws with EP4 WAY to much in the way it tries to force connections with the original trilogy. It's twenty years earlier! Not EVERYTHING has to mesh up.

Again, I think this is the fan-bases fault. They practically assailed George Lucas with questions at C3 about what would be answered by the Movie. I think he felt like he HAD to make everything line up between the movies, or no one would be happy with the movie. And in the process, the realization that not everything WOULD line up was tossed away in favor of flashy CG effects.

So, to sum up my post: I don't care if the movies include or not include EU material. What I care about is when they include some EU material, especially stuff that doesn't fit, and skip over other stuff that does, in the process destroying links that are set up to help the plot flow (Like the Republic Commando Video game).
 

Sarty

Rear Admiral
Jason_Ryock said:
I understand the Movies are George Lucas creation, but he's taken his ability to decide what gets included and what doesn't beyond the limits of human endurance. It's like he's picking and choosing what he includes JUST to piss people off.

This is the kind of thinking I hate, the thought that the EU YOU like is what should be in the movie because YOU like it. The story for Episode III was already done when Clone Wars came out, so Grievous still came from Episode III, not the other way around. And since the story was complete, the Clone Wars creators might have noticed that Grievous was coughing and decided to explain it in the cartoon.

Regardless, GL does what he wants to with SW, as he should. IF he sees something in EU he likes, he'll use it, and probably change it around to better fit in with what HE wants to do. If he sees something he doesn't like, than he dumps it in the trash, simple as that. Again, IF he used something from EU, which he didn't, does that mean that now he has to include something from EVERY EU source? Of course not, IT IS HIS FRIGGIN STORY! You don't like it, don't watch it, hate it, hate him, he doesn't care.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
For someone I know nothing about and usually skim his posts, Sarty made himself a pretty sensible arguement there.
 

Gliderboy

Spaceman
While everyone whines about no Z-95's or Victory class Star Destroyers, has anyone noticed the Juggernauts in the Kashyk (don't know the right spelling) battle. They're not from the other movies, so GL does take things from other sources.
 

Ghost

Emperor
It is me or one of the transports parked in the Senate Building isn't from the OT or EPI and II!
He must take things from other sources!
 

Conrad

Rear Admiral
Jason_Ryock said:
But hey, we're talking about Tie-In Material, so let's talk about tie-in material. Where was Kochiro? Where was the Bridge? Where was the spaceport that Delta Squad was holding up for the Confederation Forces to land out? Yoda clearly gives orders for them to form up around Delta Squad, who are "reinserted" into the mix. Fine, leave Delta Squad out of the movie. That's acceptable. But for Yoda's sake, where are the bloody TREES? That's right, TREES. Kashyyyk is supposed to be covered by TREES. Giant Ones. And the Surface is supposed to be inhospitable. It's that way in Republic Commando, which is a tie-in to the movie. So why did Kashyyyk suddenly and inexplicable change in the five seconds between the game and the movie it's a Tie-In? Because a tree-covered Kashyyyk is an EU creation. In fact, in case you didn't know, Kashyyyk itself is an EU creation. And not in the same way Coruscant is - while Timothy Zahn put only a name on the City Planet of Coruscant, he created the full background for Kashyyyk. A background that has been used countless times for other Star Wars stories. (In fact, I have it from an unconfirmed Source that the data about Kashyyyk being covered with trees is part of the Star Wars Handbook they give out to people writing in the Star Wars Universe. Now, I'm not going to argue with you over what George Lucas looks at and sees that goes into that book, but it sure strikes me that if he could put Yoda in Republic Commando, and have the Clone Wars end five seconds before the Movie, Kashyyyk in Republic Commando could have looked like it did in the movie, instead of like it does in the rest of the EU.).


Seriously now, you see an area which must not be more than 20 miles across on kashyyk in the movie. This whole argument is pretty stupid.


Enjoy the little tie ins in these movies, I think of them as a bit of an acknowledgement to the people who have helped supply the fanbase with more Star Wars material and stories; helping to flesh out the fans universe so to speak. The EU is something to help satisfy the fans hunger for more star wars. You may really like x and would love them to be included in film y. But slating the movie because it doesn't correspond with your ideas on which star fighters should be fighting in a certain scene (etc. etc.) is just crazy.

why cant ARC what ever thingys exsist along side headhunters in the same universe, how exactly does this screw up a design liniage that hasn't been set on film? These arguments just doesn't make sense.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Conrad said:
why cant ARC what ever thingys exsist along side headhunters in the same universe, how exactly does this screw up a design liniage that hasn't been set on film? These arguments just doesn't make sense.

The Z-95 was a tasteful indication of what the predecessor to the X-Wing was. This "ARC" fighter is 30 flavors of "wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more". Lucas is many things but never subtle.
 

Dahan

Rear Admiral
Star Wars' worst enemies are the Star Wars "fans". They are all a Wretched hive of scum and villany. I'm not refering to geeks who like SW, but to the SW geeks... They are impossibly demanding, they nitpick the most absurd and stupid issues... It's not even THAT good to being with. Don't get me wrong, I grew up dreaming of X-Wings, but hey, the dialogue was ALWAYS cheesy, even the good lines. It was ALWAYS full of holes and stupid things (Ewoks). But it had something good and fun inside it.

Then I go to theforce.net to check what they thought of the movie in the forums, and all I see are assholes spewing crap (of course, what else could an asshole do?). They set some impossible standard in their own twisted minds, and they hate the movie because it is completelly different from their idiotic theories. No movie would EVER satisfy them.

Sure, ANH and ESB are indeed the best ones in the series, and GL made several mistakes with the prequels (including writing dialogue and directing the movies), but hey, in the end, it is basically the same stuf...

Concerning the EU: The best thing GL could have done was ignoring it. And that's what he did. Why would he become subordinated to the work of others? and why would he take the time to check hundreds of books, comics, games... Bah, he is the owner of the show, and he can run it like he damn want it to be run.

So yoda uses a cane? Boo hoo. Cry me a fucking river.

ABOUT BLOODY TIME!!!
There is some intelligent life here on this planet. I had hope that there would be some people here who are not obsessed or critical about the 3 prequal movies that AGL created. That man had a dream, that man had an idea and that man acted upon it. Not the hundreds and thousands of people online who believe that the movie should be directed/produced differently.
If one fan disagrees with the movies and makes one for him/herself then another fan might not like what they see and make one for themselves claiming that the Star Wars movie should be made accordingly. At the end of the day it is GL who decided how it was going to be portrayed in the movie.

Delance, ok, so Campbell and Lucas are dirty heretic gnostics. Burn them at a stake if you will. But stop bringing your holy crusade against heretics to SW. Your last post was like the one mixing the ghost thing wih the cane thing, apples and oranges.
 

Haesslich

Spaceman
This is a losing battle, since it's an 'Internet Debate', but here's my reply.

Jason_Ryock said:
I never said anywhere in my post that the ARC-170 appeared in Vehicles and Vessels. What I said was that Lucas forced Grevious and the ARC-170 to be EU Material when he released them - FIRST - outside of the movies (which according to him are the only things canon). This I believe is an inherent mistake, their debut should have been in the movie, no matter how much tie-in material you attempt to make. Anf if you read my post again - or maybe for the first time giving what you're talking about - my specific complain was that Grevious was coughing. This threw alot of people off in the theatre I was in. I've had to explain it to everyone I know whose seen the movie. That was straight from the EU, and it made it into the movie.

Given that you've stated that the movies are the only 'canon' items here, this must mean that the novelization and the comic versions of the movies are non-canon, since they're a) released before the films and b) aren't the films at all since they don't show in theatres. You've basically made a statement which can be summed up as 'I don't believe what Lucas believes is canon because it appeared elsewhere - as a tie-in - first, yet other things I do like do not show up in the movies such as Z-95's and Victory-class Star Destroyers'.

Jason_Ryock said:
And as for tie-in material, it's still Expanded Universe no matter how you look at it. The Movies, the Novelizations, and the Radio Drama are the only things that George Lucas considers to be canon (which in and of itself is interesting as they contradict each other in a number of places). So Grevious and the ARC-170 make their first appearance as EU Characters. It's the same with the 501st, which is the Clone Division used to attack the Jedi Temple, and has for many many years been the name of the costumed Stormtrooper Club, and has ANOTHER Reference in an EU book. So where do the EU refrences stop and start? I understand the Movies are George Lucas creation, but he's taken his ability to decide what gets included and what doesn't beyond the limits of human endurance. It's like he's picking and choosing what he includes JUST to piss people off.

And here, you're saying that the novelizations and comic adaptations (which are not the movies) are canon, which contradicts your previous statement. Given this type of argument, it can be stated with some assurance that you do not believe the creator has the rights to decide what belongs or does not belong in his own work - that it is your own interpretation which determines what ultimately belongs or does not belong in the SW universe.

There's a difference between 'authorized by Lucasarts' and 'official tie-in' material, such as that which appears in the Clone Wars series and tie-in games. If Lucas says something is 'canon', it's canon material, no matter how much you disagree; it's like your saying that, because the Battle of Earth is never seen and only mentioned in game documentation for Armada (and later WC3) that it never did happen, so you disagree completely with Origin's statements that it is part of the WC universe's lore.

As another posted pointed out, it's like saying that Privateer sucked because it's missing the Andorran Republic, or some other fan-creation.

Jason_Ryock said:
ARC-170: Just a quite note, you haven't seen Season Two if you think the ARC-170 isn't in the Clone Wars. It featured quite prominently in the series. And now that it's mentioned I'm actually fairly certain that it's not in the movie, though the Novelization (according to Lucas) can also be considered canon, and the name probably appears in the Novel, having not read it I can neither confirm nor deny this fact. I said probably).

The name is not mentioned in the movie, and exists only because they needed something easy to tag the fighter with, other than 'clone fighter'. As noted, the name derives from the filename of the original art; ART-170. It's a lot more technical-sounding to use its designation (ART-170, Eta-2) than 'clone fighter' or 'jedi starfighter'.

Jason_Ryock said:
Regarding Return of the Jedi: I've seen the movie. And that paticular space battle. Alot. There's nothing from X-Wing Alliance in those scenes. In fact, the scenes for the Special Edition have been changed very little since the original movie. I'm not sure where your complaint comes from that X-Wing Alliance changed the Special Edition, given that Alliance was released hardly a month or two before the ROTJ Special Edition came out I don't think this accusation flies.

And if you'd read my post closely, you'll have noted that I'd said IF you had made an argument that Lucas had taken stuff from the EU to make into canon material by reworkikng Return of the Jedi to use missions or scenes from the X-Wing: Alliance game, then your arguments about 'Lucal stealing from parts of EU and ignoring others' would have been valid; XWA is a game set in the SW universe, taking props from it and creating a seperate story which is not meant to advance the main plot of the SW universe. Republic Commando, in contrast, is meant to illustrate part of the series of events between Ep II and Ep III, as is the other Clone Wars series.

Jason_Ryock said:
I've always taken the video games with a grain of salt - have you even played the Episode I game? If you haven't, you should try it. It's a fairly amusing diversion for an hour, mostly to see how far away from the movie it can go. You'll probably get sick of it about when I did: when you spend an entire level running through a gungun city and you lose the game if you kill any of them. But hey, we're talking about Tie-In Material, so let's talk about tie-in material. Where was Kochiro? Where was the Bridge? Where was the spaceport that Delta Squad was holding up for the Confederation Forces to land out? Yoda clearly gives orders for them to form up around Delta Squad, who are "reinserted" into the mix. Fine, leave Delta Squad out of the movie. That's acceptable. But for Yoda's sake, where are the bloody TREES? That's right, TREES. Kashyyyk is supposed to be covered by TREES. Giant Ones. And the Surface is supposed to be inhospitable. It's that way in Republic Commando, which is a tie-in to the movie. So why did Kashyyyk suddenly and inexplicable change in the five seconds between the game and the movie it's a Tie-In? Because a tree-covered Kashyyyk is an EU creation. In fact, in case you didn't know, Kashyyyk itself is an EU creation. And not in the same way Coruscant is - while Timothy Zahn put only a name on the City Planet of Coruscant, he created the full background for Kashyyyk. A background that has been used countless times for other Star Wars stories. (In fact, I have it from an unconfirmed Source that the data about Kashyyyk being covered with trees is part of the Star Wars Handbook they give out to people writing in the Star Wars Universe. Now, I'm not going to argue with you over what George Lucas looks at and sees that goes into that book, but it sure strikes me that if he could put Yoda in Republic Commando, and have the Clone Wars end five seconds before the Movie, Kashyyyk in Republic Commando could have looked like it did in the movie, instead of like it does in the rest of the EU.).

Explain just, where in the movies, that they show all of Kashyyyk is covered in trees? They don't - we see a few miles of city, at best. Now, if they'd done a planetary tour, then we would probably have more to complain about - right now, it's about as senseless as saying that, because we never see washrooms on starships, that they don't have any on the whole ship. Where do we get a chance to see them addressing much of Delta squad, anyhow? We see them holding off the enemy while Anakin and Obi-Wan infiltrate the flagship, but we don't get much detail out of that. You're not just nitpicking now; you're deliberately ignoring what contradicts your point of view.

Or, to use another example, Red Squad in the original SW novelization is what gets blown up, and Luke is in Blue Squadron. So, given your views here, how do you reconcile that? Since when did we get the history of Gold Leader and Blue/Red Leader being good friends in the movie? There's only so much time to use in the movie, and we can't get all the details we need in those few minutes... so Lucas picks and chooses what he presents, even if everything's official. Or he can spin it off into a tie-in or some other official product which actually advances the story.

Face it - the X-Wing novels aren't canon, no matter how entertaining they can be. However, the Clone Wars stuff is, because Lucas is using it to tell the official story of what happened between Ep's II and III in a way that couldn't be done without a lot more money to film more movies. The X-Wing novels are authorized, but the Clone Wars stuff is official - two very different beasts.

Jason_Ryock said:
Now, about the ARC-170. I think the ARC-170 is a perfect logical step from the Republic Gunships (LAAT's) to the X-Wing. Here's my problem with that. Episode III takes place 16-21 years (I'm not going to argue about the date, accept whichever date you want, I know I have. I've heard a number of differant theories and I don't want to discuss them here, so I'm including all possible dates to avoid another useless arguement) BEFORE the Original Trilogy. It certainly didn't take Incom that long to mass-produce the ARC-170 between EPII and EPIII (which is around three years). I have a hard time with them taking the ARC-170 and moving to the X-Wing, and taking twenty years to do so. Further compouding the problem is the Z-95, which by the way does not have Swing Wings the same way the X-Wing does (or I suppose in proper technical terminology, Variable Geometry Wings). It doesn't make sense to take the ARC-170 and turn it into the Z-95. I'm okay with that too, there's alot of inconsistancies between the movies and the EU I'm not going to bitch about. But when they're screw with themselves, something needs to be said.

And that's my big problem with EP3, it screws with EP4 WAY to much in the way it tries to force connections with the original trilogy. It's twenty years earlier! Not EVERYTHING has to mesh up.

Huh, that's funny - I remember you posting something like this:

Jason_Ryock said:
I am also in agreement with LOAF - there was no reason to have Yoda fight Dooku in EPII, it was there just for shock value and did not fit with the progression of the movies. The only reason it was less shocking in EPIII was because we had already seen him fight in EPII, but it was also necessary in EPIII for story-value, someone somewhere needed to explain why Yoda didn't go confront the Emporer himself and defeat him.

What were you saying about tie-ins between Ep III and the later trilogy being unnecessary again? No, not all the tech had to mesh, but this is one way of looking at where some of it came from... and why some events had to happen the way they did.

Jason_Ryock said:
Again, I think this is the fan-bases fault. They practically assailed George Lucas with questions at C3 about what would be answered by the Movie. I think he felt like he HAD to make everything line up between the movies, or no one would be happy with the movie. And in the process, the realization that not everything WOULD line up was tossed away in favor of flashy CG effects.

So, to sum up my post: I don't care if the movies include or not include EU material. What I care about is when they include some EU material, especially stuff that doesn't fit, and skip over other stuff that does, in the process destroying links that are set up to help the plot flow (Like the Republic Commando Video game).

So, on the one hand, Republic Commando and the stuff from the Clone Wars series is EU and should be excluded. On the other, it helps the plot flow, as does the rest of the Clone Wars material. And now you don't care?

Huh.
 

Dahan

Rear Admiral
There is too many cons and pros for the movie.
But there are too many ignorant people who cant appreciate the quality of what GL has done for movie.....
 

Starkey

Avenging Rooster
Cool scenes we will never see in Star Wars:

In A New Hope:
The jawas are selling the droids in lukes farm:
Luke: Hey Uncle Owen this jawas are selling droids.
Uncle Owen: Oh perfect, we need a protocol droid, the last one was stoled by some punk (He sees 3po) Wait a second... You look very familiar.

Governor Tarkin: Obi-Wan Kenobi?
Darth Vader: He is here.
Governor Tarkin: What makes you think so?
Darth Vader: A tremor in the Force. The last time I felt it was in the presence of my old master.
Governor Tarkin: Well then be carefull, the last time you saw him, he kicked your a55.

Luke: How did my father die?
Obi-Wan: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights. He betrayed and murdered your father.
Luke: Really?
Obi Wan: No. the truth is I cut his two legs and his arm and then I let him burning in a river of lava.

Darth Vader: Your powers are weak, old man.
Obi Wan: Well You're not exactly a teenager either.

In The empire Strikes Back:

Han Solo: Afraid I was gonna leave without giving you a goodbye kiss?
Princess Leia: I'd just as soon kiss a Wookiee.
Han Solo: You've just kissed your brother, that is by far more disgusting.

In the Return Of the Jedi:

(After Luke cut Vader hand)
Palpatine: Oh Vader! this is the fifth arm you lose. What's your problem man!!

In the Revenge of the Sith.

Tribute to Pulp Fiction
Mace Windu: You're in this council but we do not grant you the rank of master.
Anakin: What?
Mace Windu: Say "what" again mother *beep*
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
In fact, in case you didn't know, Kashyyyk itself is an EU creation.

Kashyyyk is in the Holiday Special -- they pronounce it "Kashoook". The Empire calls it Wookie Planet (or Wookie Planet Two or somesuch).
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Kashyyyk being in the Holiday Special allows it a certain amount of gravity within a level of "offical" canon - that being a secondary tier (where it's status is "allowed" until it's complicated or denied with a movie script or it's immedeate off-shoots like a movie novelization or a radio drama). This makes it more "important" than most novels or comic books which are 99% of the time delegated to the lowest offical tier (relatively speaking - the only difference between an EU novel and fanfiction is that fanfiction doesn't have the Lucasfilm go-ahead stamped on it, so to speak.)

This being said Kashyyyk is less EU and more offical than anything made any time since Zahn wrote his first trilogy.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Jason, I'll ask again: DON'T BE STUPID.

Just because something (i.e. Grievous) debuted in an EU source (i.e. Clone Wars cartoon) it doesn't mean it was CREATED BY THAT EU SOURCE. Probably lucasfilms told the Cartoon Network guys to insert Grievous, the guards and palpatine's kidnapping into the series. But they were SURELLY created by the Movie guys.

Same with Republic Commandos plot, the game designers were probably told to include kashyyyyyyyk, or maybe told to pick some of the movie's settings.

The fact that we SEE those things in games and cartoons first DOES NOT imply that they are EU, especially when said games and cartoons were in development AFTER the movie was already written/in production.

Please think a bit before saying stupid things.

BTW, lehah, the Z-95 is so bland and generic. Why do you like it so much, aside from being some sort of x-wing precursor?
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Edfilho said:
BTW, lehah, the Z-95 is so bland and generic. Why do you like it so much, aside from being some sort of x-wing precursor?

You can say the same about the Hellcat and the Tigershark. Except more people like the Z-95.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Erm, well, ok, whatever floats your boat. but it is ugly, anyway :)

The 'cat and the 'shark at least have some charm. Even if I'd rather be flying something else.
 
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