EPISODE 3 Discussion

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Star Wars' worst enemies are the Star Wars "fans". They are all a Wretched hive of scum and villany. I'm not refering to geeks who like SW, but to the SW geeks... They are impossibly demanding, they nitpick the most absurd and stupid issues... It's not even THAT good to being with. Don't get me wrong, I grew up dreaming of X-Wings, but hey, the dialogue was ALWAYS cheesy, even the good lines. It was ALWAYS full of holes and stupid things (Ewoks). But it had something good and fun inside it.

Then I go to theforce.net to check what they thought of the movie in the forums, and all I see are assholes spewing crap (of course, what else could an asshole do?). They set some impossible standard in their own twisted minds, and they hate the movie because it is completelly different from their idiotic theories. No movie would EVER satisfy them.

Sure, ANH and ESB are indeed the best ones in the series, and GL made several mistakes with the prequels (including writing dialogue and directing the movies), but hey, in the end, it is basically the same stuf...

Concerning the EU: The best thing GL could have done was ignoring it. And that's what he did. Why would he become subordinated to the work of others? and why would he take the time to check hundreds of books, comics, games... Bah, he is the owner of the show, and he can run it like he damn want it to be run.

So yoda uses a cane? Boo hoo. Cry me a fucking river.

Delance, ok, so Campbell and Lucas are dirty heretic gnostics. Burn them at a stake if you will. But stop bringing your holy crusade against heretics to SW. Your last post was like the one mixing the ghost thing wih the cane thing, apples and oranges.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
I largely agree with Ed on this. Much like the Boston Red Sox, anime and tee-ball, it's the people in the stands that ruin it. I don't care how much crap Fett has on his suit or the voltage of a turbolaser - I want some goddamned mythos. Episode III delivered that - albeit some parts better than others - and is easily the best SW movie since Empire.

(Not that Sith will replace Return Of The Jedi - but in terms of thematic density, direction, material and acting, Sith is far better than the roughshod manner in which almost everything was done in RotJ.)
 

Death

gh0d (Administrator)
Random observation:

Lucas must have some kind of amputation fetish or something. Anakin (multiple times, both before and after the helmet), Windu, Luke, Grievous (ok, as a machine, "amputation" is questionable), Dooku...

It's dangerous having limbs in the SW universe, apparently. You never know when some random goober with a light saber will come along and chop them off.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Death said:
Lucas must have some kind of amputation fetish or something.

It's suppose to be that maiming just takes someone out of the fight, instead of killing someone outright. One of those "higher values" of the Jedi.
 

Fellentos

Spaceman
Saw it a few days ago.

I didn't expect much of ROTS and yet still got dissapointed. Don't get me wrong, it was my money's worth and time but not the kind of movie I'd see again.

It was certainly better than the previous two but still worse than the originals imo.

I had a problem with a lot of things and it started right at the beginning.

1. The overblown use of CGI. Right at the start with the space battle there was far too much going before they focused on Anakin and Obi-wan. This trend continued during the movie where the CGI actually distracted from where the focus should lie. It did look excellent though.

2. The ships and units. The half A-wing / Tie-fighter looked crap. It was a desperate attempt to give both the rebel and empire ships of the originals a link to this movie. Where were the Headhunters or the Victory Star Destroyers? The semi-SDs were not Victory types. If he used these a link that would be much more believable.

3. The lightsaber fights. They were too repetitive in the moves they used. Where is the use of force powers? Hardly ever used in those saber fights, except for the occasional Force Push. They could have done so much more to bring more variety in the fights. The tactical use of some Force powers that would determine the outcome of the fight would have been great.

And the fight between Obi-Wan and Grievous was just sad. 4 Lightsabers against 1 lightsaber and right at the beginning Grievous loses 2 of his sabers that twist like choppers (That was great btw). I don't mind Obi-Wan winning easy, but he should have won by using his Force powers and not by lightsaber skill which is insane against such odds.




4. Dialogue. Once again Lucas shows his romantic dialogue needs a big overhaul. I cringed a whole less than the previous movies but that's also because there were less romantic scenes.

5. Rushed. The pace of the movie is very fast, and normally I'm in for that (example Die Hard 3) but in this case it was too fast. Many scenes didn't seem to link up well and the ending could have been better.

6. The sudden change of heart of Anakin. His choice for the Dark Side came very abrupt after Mace died. Even with Anakins feelings going for the Dark Side in AOTC already, it still felt rushed. Perhaps the Dark Side has that effect on people, but it just didn't seem natural.

7. Mace and his cronies against Palpatine. Palpatine kills of 2 jedi in seconds!? Perhaps that Scream temporarily stuns his opponents? And why let Palpatine use a lightsaber? He didnt use one in ROTJ. It would have been cooler if he didnt need to use one to kill his Jedi opponents, or that he would use the lightsabers of the Jedi against them.

8. Once again a mention of midi-chlorians. Yes lets further destroy the mysticism around the Force, way to go Lucas.

9. The crap attempt at humor and bonds. I didn't laugh once this movie, and the attempts at humor were laughable at best. Furthermore the dialogue between Anakin and Obi-wan was bad when they are still on good terms, and it just didnt ring. This has a lot to do with the casting of them at the very beginning.

I could go on for a while I guess...

Perhaps I'm just an Original fan that can't be pleased by new Star Wars movies, but I feel it could have been so much better if Lucas let someone else direct the movies.
 

Sarty

Rear Admiral
1. Special effects are part of the SW series, they always have been. I can't think of one moment in the movie that I was drawn away from what was happening to stare numbly at some CG object.

2. Headhunters and Victory SD's are EU, Lucas did what he wanted and you don't like it, too bad.

3. You forget that they are using the force while they are fighting with the lightsabers, focusing on their opponent to sense their intentions and to sense attacks more easily. Even Palpatine and Yoda have to pause to use some force power against one another, there's just too much to focus on.

To answer why Obi-Wan was still better with a lightsaber than Grievous, read above. Greivous knew how to use a lightsaber, but Obi-Wan could see what Greivous was going to do before he did it, thats what Jedi do when fighting with lightsabers.

4. I understand what your saying but I don't think the movie was any worse off because of it.

5. It kind of had to be. The fall of the Republic, the Jedi Purge, end of the war, birth of Luke and Leia, rise of the Empire, rise of Darth Vader, etc. Thats a lot of stuff to fit into one movie. I think they did it well.

6. I think its a mix. Part of it is yes, the dark side does grab a hold of you pretty quickly I would imagine, and part of it is he knew he couldn't go back to the Jedi after helping to kill Master Windu. He felt he had no choice but to give in to the dark side.

7. Palpatine gives Yoda a good fight, why wouldn't he be able to kill standard Jedi without too much difficulty. Your doing the same thing with Yoda too, not wanting Palpatine to use a lightsaber. Its been said many times that the lightsaber is the weapon of a Jedi Knight and obviously of the Sith as well, it makes sense that he most powerful on either side would still use them.

8. We already know from the original trilogy that a person's attunement to the force is tied in with genetics, the mysticism around the force was taken away before the prequels.

9. I was relieved to see simple jokes between the characters, even while they were in a tight spot. That was one of the best parts of the originals, being serious but still being fun. Even in some of the tensest battles the characters were joking with each other, and I'm glad they did it.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Thank you, Fellentos, for demonstrating how sad and ridiculous the fanbase can be.

WTF!? Victory SDs are fine and dandy in games and other EU sources, but as far as Lucas is concerned, THEY NEVER EXISTED. Same goes for Headhunters and mostly all game jedi powers. Maybe if they included the YT-2000 corellian transport the 20 thousand people who know what the fuck it is would be pleased, but then Lucas' art design team would be stuck with a ship THEY DIDN'T DESIGN.

I'll say it again: THANK YOU LUCAS, for leaving all the UE stuff out, no matter how cool it was. Doing otherwise would not only guarantee the alienation of ALL non-SW geek people, but also completelly tie lucas and his people in some huge and tortuous continuity they had nothing to do with.

BTW, yeah, ROTS is better than RotJ because, ultimatelly, the plot of the older film is kinda crap. Sure, the redemption of Vader and death of Palpatine is cool, but the whole rebel attack on endor and the DS2 is just dumb ans nonsense. the entire plan to atract the rebels is kinda silly, and so is everything that happens in endor. RotS is a lot more relevant and not-silly. Ok, the lovey parts suck, but they're few and far between.
 

Fellentos

Spaceman
Just to be clear on this, I don't consider myself to be a true Star Wars fan (unlike you perhaps), I do know what EU means now though (Expanded Universe right?).

I am however space combat shooter fan, hence my use of material what is apparently not approved by Lucas (Is that really the case however?).

What I don't understand is why create something entirely new when you can easily create a link between the originals and these movies using the ships and powers that are apparently Expanded Universe. It will still be as new for the ones that did not play the games and yet familiar for those who did. Even using a few would have imo make it easier to bridge the gap. Sure put some new stuff that has the "cool" factor, but some EU material would have been nice.

As for additional Force power usage. I believe that it brings additional tactics in the lightsaber fights that would make it less repetitive as I implied in my previous post.

As for the plot of the Original movies, of course it isn't great. Hell its the cliche plot of saving the princess etc etc. In that respect ROTS story does look better, especially showing the manipulation and planning of Sidious very well, but it hardly suprised me either.

After seeing the new Trilogy I can relate most my nitpickings to the casting and dialogue. There just wasn't enough of a bond between the actors that together with the dialogue just couldn't make very sympathetic with the characters.
 

Sarty

Rear Admiral
The problem is that the EU you know is not the EU some other fan knows. The SW Expanded Universe is HUGE. There would be no way to use any of it without aggravating some other fans. So rather than try to tie HIS own story in with the hundreds of spinoffs that have been created, he continued to make his own stuff up, as he should have.
 

Jason_Ryock

Vice Admiral
Certain things, thought, came from the Original Trilogy movies, like the Victory Star Destroyer (check the Concept art for the movies if you don't believe me). So in some ways some of the fan-base DO consider it cannon, even though only the movies technically are.

Other things, like the Images of Alderaan, were done by Ralph McQuarrie as concept art for the original movies that never got used. And if you've SEEN the pictures of Alderaan, they are BREATH TAKING, not like the crappy shadowy night-time mountain cliff-based planet we see in the ROTS Movie. Point is, Alderaan is supposed to be very beautiful. And did anyony catch that Theed, Capital of Naboo, and Aldera, capital of Alderaan, are now both set on cliffs? That kind of offends me.
 

cff

Kilk'dymga'qith laq Ik'vikvi
I'v finally seen the movie as well and I really don't know judge it. E1 and E2 had their good and their bad parts - E3 leaves me with mixed feelings all over.

Technically I have 2 complaints:
* the movie was too rushed. The action scenes would have benefitted from a wider view angel with less cuts IMHO. The closeups with very frequent scene chances were too much.
* forgive me ILM, but some of that CGI was huge crap. That starfighter starting form that redish stardestroyer like capship? Prophecy had better textures then that! Also in the scene where you see 5-6 clone troopers without helmets they look so artificial they could have been taken out of Starlancer.

Plot wise:
* General Grievous - he is a robot, right? So why the heck does he breath like a bad imitation of Vader and caughs all the time?
* The whole arresting Darth Sidious scene was rather bad. Killing 3 Jedi in seconds? WTF? Also the fall of Anakin right afterwards felt extremely out of place. What have I done - oh, ok whatever - I will contine that dark path? Would have been far better to slowly seduce Anakin by teaching him some secrets then this.
* Ok, Yoda lost against Darth Sidious by bad luck. So he goes into exile? Ever heared of a rematch?

BTW: When Sidous talked about that overpowerful Sith Master who was killed by his apprentice - was he talking about his master or an old legend? Is there any offical ruling about that?
 

Ghost

Emperor
cff said:
Plot wise:
* General Grievous - he is a robot, right? So why the heck does he breath like a bad imitation of Vader and caughs all the time?
* The whole arresting Darth Sidious scene was rather bad. Killing 3 Jedi in seconds? WTF? Also the fall of Anakin right afterwards felt extremely out of place. What have I done - oh, ok whatever - I will contine that dark path? Would have been far better to slowly seduce Anakin by teaching him some secrets then this.
* Ok, Yoda lost against Darth Sidious by bad luck. So he goes into exile? Ever heared of a rematch?


1)Windu made his lungs almost poopoo in Clone Wars Episode 25.

2)Well, he (Lucas) needs to demosntrate that he is pretty powefull, Anakin know that he can't go back to the Council and says: ''I killed Windu, sorry, my mistake'', also the only thing that he wants from Palpatine is the power to save Amidala.
I find all of this very reminiscent of the Exar Kun Fall in the EU bibliography

3)He attacked Palpatine by surprise, i don't think that he could go to Coruscant or the senate building again without being watched by the Crimson Guards or Clones or whatever force is there.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
cff said:
* General Grievous - he is a robot, right?

Wrong, he is a cyborg. Part machine, part alien.

cff said:
* The whole arresting Darth Sidious scene was rather bad. Killing 3 Jedi in seconds?

He's a Sith Lord. He's suppossed to be a bad-ass.

cff said:
* Ok, Yoda lost against Darth Sidious by bad luck. So he goes into exile? Ever heared of a rematch?

Have you ever heard of the original trilogy? Yoda really couldn't kill the emperor, so a rematch would be a moot point.

And Ed, what are you babbling about? Anakin is supposed to be an archetype about how someone good is turned evil, and this is stated over and over again. On EP3 Yoda simply repeated what has been said all along, no surprise there. There was no need for you to get all confrontational. Cling to your fan-made thing if that makes you happy, but spare me of that crap.

And as for the other subject, yes, SW geeks can be a problem. There doesn’t seem to be any major continuity problem between the trilogies.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Jason_Ryock said:
So in some ways some of the fan-base DO consider it cannon, even though only the movies technically are.

Don't kick me in the balls and call it a handshake. Any fanbase is probably the absolute last place you should be looking at for continuity information. Frankly, most hardcore Star Wars fans are really big jerks who can tell you how many TIEs are in a Star Destroyer but not why the movies work, why we care about them or why they have a timeless nature. (And even the few who can tell you are just repeating something they read somewhere else.)

cff said:
* General Grievous - he is a robot, right? So why the heck does he breath like a bad imitation of Vader and caughs all the time?

And why does he have a grill for a mouth peice and a skull shaped helmet? Oh wait, thats just crazy ol George Lucas trying to be subtle.

cff said:
* The whole arresting Darth Sidious scene was rather bad. Killing 3 Jedi in seconds? WTF?

A couple things should be noted.

1.) The Jedi have been slowly losing their affinity with the Force, as said in Episode II.

2.) Do Jedi even know how to fight as a group? Theres a bunch of EU schlock that says they could coordinate using the Force but I don't think thats ever been made canon. In any case, if you don't know how to fight as a unit, you're fucked.

3.) The pure aggression of Sidious probably caught them off guard. I personally took great affection towards him cutting down that green motherfucker from Episode II.

cff said:
What have I done - oh, ok whatever - I will contine that dark path? Would have been far better to slowly seduce Anakin by teaching him some secrets then this.

For his whole life, Anakin has been looking for substance. Something to do with himself. The Jedi with their incredibly stand-offish attitude and cult-like mentality obviously was going to come apart sooner or later. Sidious just so happened to luck out by Anakin being in the wrong place at the wrong time. (Unless you believe the idea that Darth Plagus "willed" Anakin into existence or somesuch).

cff said:
* Ok, Yoda lost against Darth Sidious by bad luck. So he goes into exile? Ever heared of a rematch?

The strength and weakness in this is that it takes Yoda's warning in Return Of The Jedi very literally ("Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor - or suffer your father's fate, you will.")

cff said:
Is there any offical ruling about that?

It was a wink wink, nudge nudge that Palpatine was the apprentice.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Fellentos, I think my previous post listed the many reasons why the people who made the movies probably disagree with you... sincerely, the z-95 looks like crap. The ARC fighter is a lot cooler. I'm glad Lucas ignored that stuff from the games (which I like a lot)

BTW, I don't claim to be any kind of TRUE FAN of anything. That is a stupid and jerk-full attitude. I'm just me, a guy who likes SW and WC a lot. I'm not a better fan or more legitimate than any other fan. But that doesn't mean that I can't point out people being stupid. And complaining about Ep3 because it didn't fit into one's pre-conceptions of it is stupid. Like delance, who babbled a lot about his anti-gnostic crusade then attacked me :) But mainly all those annoying SW geeks who complain because some obscure jedi from a one-shot promotional comic didn't jerk off on screen. Sw movies are GL's turf, and he can do whatever he wants with it.
 
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