EPISODE 3 Discussion

iCe

Vice Admiral
Atekimogus said:
4. Why did Obi-Wan, let Aniken left alone after he had cut off his feet? I mean if he didn't want to kill him, why didn't he help him get away from the fire? But if he wanted to kill him why would he for god's sake leave him alone to die a very slow and agonizing death? Wouldn't it be more mercyful for a jedi to end is suffering? But no he leaves him alone to fry.

So could please anyone clear this up for me thx :)

Obi-Wan said he couldn't kill anakin, because he was like a brother to him.

Also, he might not have done it because jedi do not believe in killing helpless opponents. He also might not have pulled him away from there, because he realised that anakin was totaly consumed by the Dark Side and that there was no way to help him regain his connection with the Light Side of the Force. So he left him there because he was in pain, or to him suffer for becomming Darth Vader and all the crimes he has commited.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Just got watched the movie today. I'd heard a lot of bad things about it from friends - and then I loved every minute of it. I can understand why some of the people I talked to think it's awful, though. Taken by itself the movie is pretty messy, with too many different things happening, too many leading actors, and so on - but taken instead as the movie that goes between episodes two and four, it works perfectly. The trouble is, you really have to be a Star Wars fan (as opposed to someone who merely enjoyed the other five episodes) to fully appreciate episode three.

Delance said:
I said it before on EPII, but EPIII makes it clear, the Jedi indifference throws Anakin to the Dark Side as much as the Sith corruption.
Look at it from a different point of view - forget Lucas trying to get anything across, forget the sequence in which the episodes were made. Look at it as one complete story. Yeah, the Jedi in Eps I-III are indifferent, and their teachings are pretty crazy. It's exactly this that leads the Jedi to lose against the Sith. Then Luke comes along, he rejects the Jedi ideology... and wins. I don't know what Lucas was trying to get across - I don't know if this was supposed to be some kind of "detach yourself" message... but I do know that whatever the intention, the end result is the exact opposite.

Jason_Ryock said:
Yoda - sigh. Walk with a cane, fight like a whirling deverish. Sorry, just doesn't work for me anymore. Once, I can understand, but after the crap in the senate hall, the sneaking through the tunnel, the clone troopers at the temple...no. The cane has no purpose, anymore. Unless it concealed a lightsaber. Which it didn't. People gave you to much credit - I can't believe they cheered when you killed the Royal Guard. At least they don't walk around leaning on their Force Pikes. You sucked. Go back to being a puppet who does nothing. It was more interesting.
Sigh. Am I the only one that thinks Yoda's light sabre abilities fit the character perfectly?

Think about it. He's an eight hundred year-old Jedi master - of course he's good with the light sabre. And you would think that the guy that can lift an X-Wing out of the swamp would be able to use the force to do a few flips and mid-air rolls, right? So far, so good. Ah, but then we have the cane, which is what everybody seems to be having trouble with. Well, again, he is an eight hundred year-old Jed master. We can presume that he's old enough to need the cane - and while the force obviously would work far better than the cane, it would be completely inappropriate for the character to use the force needlessly.

Yoda's portrayal is far better thought-out than anybody is willing to give Lucas credit for. Just like we would expect, an eight hundred year-old Jedi master is a badass with the force, and just like we would expect, an eight hundred year-old Jedi master only ever uses the force when needs to. So what's everyone's problem?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I had a problem with how it was played in Episode II -- as a sort of 'joke' and for shock value instead of a natural progression of the movie. It didn't bother me at all in Episode III... it seemed natural and less "wacky" when he was fighting the emperor.

(It was also completely pointless in terms of storytelling in Episode 2 -- Yoda shows up and fights Dooku with no result when the actual 'event' should be Anakin fighting Dooku without waiting for Obi-Wan.)
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Delance said:
It would be bad for a diplomatic situation, as the individual would have no reason for being loyal to the side he’s representing.

I should've been more clear. I was thinking of a Jedi as a third-party moderator, not as a "diplomat" per se.
 

Jason_Ryock

Vice Admiral
Quarto said:
Sigh. Am I the only one that thinks Yoda's light sabre abilities fit the character perfectly?

Think about it. He's an eight hundred year-old Jedi master - of course he's good with the light sabre. And you would think that the guy that can lift an X-Wing out of the swamp would be able to use the force to do a few flips and mid-air rolls, right? So far, so good. Ah, but then we have the cane, which is what everybody seems to be having trouble with. Well, again, he is an eight hundred year-old Jed master. We can presume that he's old enough to need the cane - and while the force obviously would work far better than the cane, it would be completely inappropriate for the character to use the force needlessly.

Yoda's portrayal is far better thought-out than anybody is willing to give Lucas credit for. Just like we would expect, an eight hundred year-old Jedi master is a badass with the force, and just like we would expect, an eight hundred year-old Jedi master only ever uses the force when needs to. So what's everyone's problem?

Okay. So let's assume your theory is correct for a moment. If Yoda, being a Jedi for eight hundred years, is so great, wise, and respected, and the ultimate master of the Force, why does he need to learn how to "become one with the Force" from a Jedi Master who died fighting a Sith his apprentice was able to beat, and who didn't "Become one with the Force" when he died? Can you explain to me how that fits with your equation?

I am also in agreement with LOAF - there was no reason to have Yoda fight Dooku in EPII, it was there just for shock value and did not fit with the progression of the movies. The only reason it was less shocking in EPIII was because we had already seen him fight in EPII, but it was also necessary in EPIII for story-value, someone somewhere needed to explain why Yoda didn't go confront the Emporer himself and defeat him.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Jason_Ryock said:
Okay. So let's assume your theory is correct for a moment. If Yoda, being a Jedi for eight hundred years, is so great, wise, and respected, and the ultimate master of the Force, why does he need to learn how to "become one with the Force" from a Jedi Master who died fighting a Sith his apprentice was able to beat, and who didn't "Become one with the Force" when he died? Can you explain to me how that fits with your equation?
Oh, sorry, I forgot that any explanation is invalid unless it solves the answers to all of life's questions at once.

Seriously, WTF? What the hell does that 'becoming one with the force' thing have to do with the subject? You're grasping at straws here, and in a pretty bizarre fashion at that. Yeah, for some reason Lucas decided to throw in a weird and unnecessary explanation of that ghost-apparition thing from the original trilogy... but this neither validates nor invalidates what I said about Yoda. The two things are entirely unconnected.

I am also in agreement with LOAF - there was no reason to have Yoda fight Dooku in EPII, it was there just for shock value and did not fit with the progression of the movies. The only reason it was less shocking in EPIII was because we had already seen him fight in EPII, but it was also necessary in EPIII for story-value, someone somewhere needed to explain why Yoda didn't go confront the Emporer himself and defeat him.
At some point, somewhere, Yoda had to be shown fighting, and episode II (where every other Jedi was seen fighting) was the right place for it. He never had any need to touch a lightsabre in the original trilogy, but there was no way they could go through the downfall of the Jedi order without having the greatest Jedi of all demonstrating his skills. And from the storyline perspective, there was no difference whatsoever between episodes II and III - in both cases, Yoda thought he was fighting the Sith Lord. In one case, he turned out to be wrong - but just because you knew he was fighting the apprentice doesn't mean that he knew.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Jason_Ryock said:
Okay. So let's assume your theory is correct for a moment. If Yoda, being a Jedi for eight hundred years, is so great, wise, and respected, and the ultimate master of the Force, why does he need to learn how to "become one with the Force" from a Jedi Master who died fighting a Sith his apprentice was able to beat, and who didn't "Become one with the Force" when he died?

Much like the heavy buddhist influences and rationale that was used in Empire Strikes Back, one's "mastery" is still a learning experience through out a person's life. It's a lifelong accomplishment, not one that plateaus.
 

Sarty

Rear Admiral
Jason_Ryock said:
Okay. So let's assume your theory is correct for a moment. If Yoda, being a Jedi for eight hundred years, is so great, wise, and respected, and the ultimate master of the Force, why does he need to learn how to "become one with the Force" from a Jedi Master who died fighting a Sith his apprentice was able to beat, and who didn't "Become one with the Force" when he died? Can you explain to me how that fits with your equation?

Yoda never once said he had to learn it himself. Yoda told Obi-Wan that he had something he wanted Obi-Wan to learn during their exile. Which actually had to do with Obi-Wan learning to communicate with Qui-gon, not learning how to become a force-ghost. I don't know where you're getting this.
 

TurboTim07

Rear Admiral
okay. here're my opinions about the movie. and of course anyone's welcome to disagree.

I personally thought that it was better than Episode I and II, but I still think those two were still decent.

Tech:
I really liked the way the various ships and costumes tied in to the later series. You could see how the clone troopers' armor became the armor of the stormtroopers and scout troopers. The ARC-170 was a nice hint towards the X-wing, and the various TIE fighter precursors were nice as well. Then, there's the star destroyers of course, and the Tantive IV... just plain confused me. The Emperor's shuttle was a good hint towards the shuttle in Return of the Jedi (Lamda-class I think it was?). And, of course, the beginning of the construction of the Death Star at the end was, in my opinion, a good thing. On the other hand, R2-D2... how in the heck did he get so friggin fast?! He wasn't even that fast the any of the other episodes so why now?

Fall of the Jedi:
Very disappointing to me. Mace Windu's death was not a great way to let him die. He was there to arrest the Emperor, and up until Anakin showed up, he was doing just that. Then, for some strange reason, right when Anakin showed up, he took a more aggresive stance and wanted to kill Palpatine right then and there while Anakin was left trying to convince Windu to let him stand trial. Getting his arm chopped off and then blasted out of the window was not the way I had expected him to die. To be honest, I expected him to live and gather up the remaining Jedi to put up a resistance and be killed in battle later by Vader. After Anakin sees Palpatine send Mace out the window even though he was "too weak to fight back," he goes "Oh, no. What have I done?" and yet he still pledges allegiance to Palpatine even after seeing this deception. Ki-Adi-Mundi (for those who don't know, the white alien with the extra-long head and white ponytail at the top), shot in the back. SHOT IN THE BACK. by clone troopers! Didn't even give much of a fight. Plo Koon, at least he made it a little bit harder for the clone pilots to kill him, but I still find it hard to believe that clone troopers could shoot down a Jedi Master. Aayla Secura (I think it was her), I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't notice the clone troopers dropping behind and not sense the shots coming. Overall, it felt too short. Yes, after sleeping on it and waking up I felt very sad that the Jedi were killed but it wasn't just because they were killed but how. I felt like they were killed way too easily for Jedi. Worse yet, they were killed by clone troopers and not by Vader. I'm not sure about any one else, but I was under the impression that the extermination of the Jedi took years and not what seemed like just hours. And then, Palpatine is suddenly able to turn the Senate against the Jedi and making the Jedi the bad guys and him look like the good guys and no one seems to question it? Very disturbing.

Vader and Palpatine:
Wow, they give me the shivers. Not because of their "evilness" either. Anakin was pretty easily manipulated by Palpatine. I find it ironic that in acting on his dreams, he's the very reason Padme died. But back to what I was saying. Their transformations are what gives me the shivers. Palpatine's deformation because of the Force Lightning being sent back at him. Egh. Wonder if the Senate ever thought to consider how the Jedi could've possibly done that to him... Then Anakin gettin both of his legs hacked off. That didn't bother me, although it did catch me off guard. Should've listened to Obi-Wan, but noooo "You underestimate my power." I guess he didn't stop to consider that there was only really one place to land and the Obi-Wan knew it and was warning him. Oh well. Now when he got burned badly... youch. Seeing him with all those burns gave me the shivers as well.

Clone Troopers:
Very, very cool. Nice job showing transitions from the original clone trooper armor to the stormtrooper armor. But their betrayal, to me, was tragic. Here, they're genetically bred with having to take orders. They know no other life but war. They know they were bred for war and are expendable. Sometimes, they even get a chance to befriend Jedi, as with Obi-Wan and Cody(I think that was his name. I'm not quite sure though), only to be forced to carry out Order 66 and have no feelings about it. If you've read Republic Commando: Hard Contact and/or played Star Wars: Republic Commando, then it puts a whole new perspective to the characters you're introduced to. You find yet another Jedi who befriends and clone commando (Etain and Darman) only to have Order 66 be carried out during the movie. Speaking of Republic Commando, why in the heck do you have a clone trooper "contact" giving you orders instead of a Jedi like you're suppose to? Anyways, I digress. I wonder what eventually happens to the clones. Maybe some of them are stormtroopers in the original trilogy, but most of the stormtroopers are regular humans that go through the academy (as Kyle Katarn was one of them). I guess I could answer that question though myself because I remember reading somewhere (either it was a quote in Hard Contact or it was on the Star Wars website) that Kamino was invaded so I'm guessing it's safe to assume that the cloning facility was destroyed, but I would like a firm and definate answer to that question.

The whole Force ghosts thing:
Okay, everyone knows that Qui-Gon Jinn's body doesn't fade away while Ben's, Anakin's, and Yoda's do when they die. Then, some people complain about how Lucas answered that question in Episode III. Here, of course, is my take on it. Yoda, while very wise and old, didn't know about becoming one with the Force because of his traditional views on Jedi teachings. Qui-Gon was known to be rebellious in nature, and that was one of the main reasons he wasn't on the council. I think, because he didn't have traditional views about the Force, he able to learn about things in the Force that a traditional Jedi might have viewed as too close to the dark side although they really weren't. Either that, or it could be that his will to teach Anakin in the ways of the Force was so strong that he was able to retain some sort of method to speak with other Force users. He might've discovered how to speak through the force but Yoda could've perfected it. Remember that he's only able to speak in Episode II and not show up as a ghost whereas Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin do show up as ghosts. So maybe Yoda found out that you could speak through the Force and works to find a way to appear as a ghost. Then, he teaches this to Obi-Wan. Now, as for Anakin. I believe that after he killed Obi-Wan, he was perplexed as to why there was no body. Being curious and wanting to have all the power he could, (Ben's lasts words were "I will become more powerful than you could ever imagine.") he wanted to find out this power for himself. And probably through meditation, he discovered this secret on his own. And that's how his body disappeared, and he came up as a ghost. This is just a theory, and like I said, you're welcome to disagree.

Anyways, those were just plot elements that I decided to point out and discuss. In the end, I really liked the movie, and I plan to get it when it comes out on DVD (or I might wait and get the box set if one ever comes out). It does a good job tying in the prequels with the originals. But, it does bring up new questions for me that I wish could be answered. But, these were just my thoughts on the movie and how I felt about it. If someone hadn't seen it and asked me to see it again, then I'd probably say yes and go see it again because it was worth my money.
 

Dahan

Rear Admiral
For the record, the first two times I played WCIV, I got the flight instructor ending.
How many endings are there in WC 4
Jason, I do not know if it is or you must be the most critical person to criticise about Episode 3. Sure Ep 1 and 2 may have been shit and all, but you have to give the benefit of the doubt that there was a plot that would lead up to the final part.
The way I see it -
Episode One - The only things enjoyable was Obi-Wan/Qui-gon Jinn vs Darth Maul
Episode Two - Obi V Jango, Clone Battle, Genosis Battle Arena, Anakin/Obi V Dooku
Yoda V Dooku and some minor diagloue scenes worth watching.
Episode Three - Pretty much everything was good for me.

Pretty much everyone hated Jar Jar. I respect that but people tend to forget that Jar was not suppose to hated in the movie. I think that people forget that GL was trying to create a digital character without the use of actors and succeeded. People tend to forget that GL is experiementing with lots of things in the movies and people should appreciate what he has made.

One a finer point about people saying that they could write/produce/direct a better Star Wars movie. I doubt that. George Lucas had created the original idea and created the Star Wars leagacy. No one in their right would change what he has tried to achieved. Sure there are bad things in what he made, but for crying out loud appreciate what he did.
 

Jason_Ryock

Vice Admiral
I WILL be much happier when the DVD version is released and the missing scenes are made viewable. They needed to be in the movie.

One of them further details the teachings of the Whimm (who taught how to "become one with the Force") and why Qui-Gon is so important to that set of teachings. This scene really should have been in the movie.

As for my point about Yoda and Qui-Gon...Yoda walks with a cane because supposedly he doesn't draw on the Force to support his aging body. Why? Not because of a lack of power, he certainly has the ability. It is because, as the Jedi teachings suggest, as one matures in the Force and achieves mastery one will call on the Force less and less and rely more on his own body.

From this data, and general information about Yoda (such as his age) we can determine that he has been studying the Force far longer then anyone else has. Eight Hundred Years, according to him.

Now let's look at Qui-Gon Jin. He didn't want Obi-Wan as an apprentice, in fact, he failed in his teaching so much that his first apprentice went to the Darkside. He belived in a prophecy no one else did, and brought back a sand covered kid to fulfill it, against the councils wishes he continued to teach Anakin even when he wasn't supposed to. Then he confronts Darth Maul. And he dies. Yet his apprentice, who wasn't ready to yet be a Jedi Knight according to the council, manages to defeat Darth Maul. Meanwhile, Qui-Gon has died, and not faded away as the greatest of the Jedi do.

From this we can determine that Yoda's Force Abilites > Qui-Gon's Force abilities. Yet Yoda needs to turn around and learn from Qui-Gon? Sorry, that doesn't fly with me. And the whole cane concept is just cheesy. I could understand it if he looked hunched over a little more, like he was leaning on it, but he goes from leaning heavily on it and looking hunched over to standing straight up and permorming triple back flips. And crawling - quickly - through an access tunnel. It just doesn't fly with me - to many inconsistancies with the same character.
 

Tempest

Spaceman
Finally, Jason, a review I can agree with. It looked spectacular and all, and I enjoyed the movie for the ride. But in no way whatsoever does it come close to comparing to the original trilogy in my opinion. It may have looked cool, but it's full of so many gaping plot holes, that I can't even begin. I liked it, dont get me wrong. It tied everything up, too. it just seemed like after throwing out a lot of things that seemed 'cool' in the first two movies, the third was them trying desperately to tie everything together. And they could have done it much better. I found it a lot better than the previous two, but still didn't capture the charm of the originals for me, for some reason.

Why can Leia remember her mother, but Luke can't when they were born at the exact same time? She remembers imagines and feelings. He can't. Makes no sense! Unelss she's thinking of Bail's wife, but that wouldn't make much dramatical sense.

And the Vadar 'Nooooo!' scene? Cringe. Simply cringe.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Why can Leia remember her mother, but Luke can't when they were born at the exact same time? She remembers imagines and feelings. He can't. Makes no sense! Unelss she's thinking of Bail's wife, but that wouldn't make much dramatical sense.

This is an example of the extent to which Sci Fi geeks will avoid common sense in order to achieve the pleasurable rush of nitpicking -- in what universe were you taught that *memory* was any sort of constant?
 

Tempest

Spaceman
Bandit LOAF said:
This is an example of the extent to which Sci Fi geeks will avoid common sense in order to achieve the pleasurable rush of nitpicking -- in what universe were you taught that *memory* was any sort of constant?

Uhoh, here we go. Now I'm a 'Sci Fi geek' and avoiding common sense. Fantastic ;)

Not everything is about constants. Sometimes a movie can be subtle in the way it speaks to a viewer in particular, giving different ideas and such. I'm giving my /opinion/ on how a later scene was dramatically /portrayed/. The scene was meant to be a big deal later, with Luke and Leia discussing their mother. The way it was set up, made it so. The impression that the scene gave off, that while Padme died when Leia said she was 'very young' the fact that she remembers what she looked like and that she was 'sad' while Luke didn't suggests that she was with her mother longer than Luke was. Either that, or it could be explained by some sort of force connection. Not that it really needs an explanation, it was a point that came to me when re-watching RotJ, though. Now, that was the initial feeling that I got from the scene. Call it wrong as much as you like, but you can't force an opinion.

I wouldn't say that I was some huge nitpicking geek. It's my prerogative whether I enjoyed the movie or not. Honestly? I was a huge fan of the originals, hence why I picked up on the smaller things established. And a lot of these smaller, subtle facts, were not held true in these new movies. Doesn't make them wrong, but I feel that it could have been linked, better. Now, Loaf, emphasis on I 'feel'. It 's not making me lose sleep at night or writing letter campaigns, or anything. :)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Everyone who posts to a Wing Commander message board is a sci fi geek -- there's absolutely no way around that.

I'm not the one who tried to quantify an opinion, though - you very clearly claimed that there was some sort of continuity or common sense violation going on. (Further, you phrased the whole thing as a question and didn't say a damned thing about it being an 'opinion' - given that preface you should no better than to be shocked that someone would *reply* to it.)

I don't care whether youi enjoyed the movie or not - I'm pointing out a very common trend everywhere. We see kind of 'classic' nitpicking as some kind of ideal instead of the fun joke people used to treat it as... and then we apply the most ridiculous standards to everything, ignoring common sense in order to specifically find fault with things.
 

Tempest

Spaceman
No doubt I love my sci fi. The word geek can be construed in many ways, though. ;) - And you're right, I possibly didn't phrase it in a method of my opinion. I was curious as to what people thought of the point, as an example, of the way the new movies linked to those of old. You thought the point was too nitpicky to be an issue. That's cool. And probably true.

Off the top of my head, there are a couple of other things. For example, when luke first initiated training with Yoda, Obi-wan asked Yoda if 'I was any different when you trained me' - whereas it was Qui-Gon and not Yoda who trained him. I know. /That's/ nitpicking. And yeah, I'm reading too much into it. I just figured that they'd try not to directly contradict anything previously established. But I loved those movies, and perhaps thinking anything could live up to them wasn't the best frame of mind ever, rather than taking them for face value.

One opinion I do have, though, is that there was something about the quirkiness of the new trilogy that kinda got to me. I mean.. one of the things I enjoyed most about the original trilogy, was that it was amazingly corny. But corny in a /good/ and enjoyable way. I found, that while the new movies held true to being corny, it was rather the cringing variety. I'm not sure how blurry the line between the two is, but that's the impression it gave me.
 

Ghost

Emperor
Well, Yoda trained the younglings, so when Obi Wan was a youngling probably he was trained by Yoda too
 

Tempest

Spaceman
Ah, that's true. And possibly he was particularly rebellious or impatient when he was more youthful. The reason it's kind of up in the air, is since nothing was actually mentioned in the new ones to support the claim. And if what Ghost has said is true, then it's just kind of left up to the viewer to derive.

Then again, not every viewer is going to be reading into it quite so much to have the /need/ to derive it. :p
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Bandit LOAF said:
This is an example of the extent to which Sci Fi geeks will avoid common sense in order to achieve the pleasurable rush of nitpicking -- in what universe were you taught that *memory* was any sort of constant?

Thats the error of all movies - even in the classic trilogy. If we're supposed to believe now that Obi-Wan was simply lying to Luke in that first film, that works... it doesn't QUITE work, but then it didn't quite work in 1983 either when we were supposed to suddenly think Obi-Wan had been lying about Luke's father. Ah, the perils of sequels.
 
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