EPISODE 3 Discussion

d3r3k

Spaceman
i thought anakin's fall to the darkside was pathetic and poorly written.

okay, i know that the expanded universe is not canon, but george lucas pretty much ignored everything that has been established in it with his freaking obsession with the death star.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
d3r3k said:
okay, i know that the expanded universe is not canon, but george lucas pretty much ignored everything that has been established in it.

Then why are you bothering telling us you know the sky is blue and then demand that it's red?

Delance said:
You want to go free your mother from slavery? Tough luck, love leads to the dark side.

If anything, Anakin was right in doing what he was doing. Who are the Jedi to think so highly of their own order if they refuse to undo slavery in the galaxy unless it suits their needs?

Delance said:
Jedi compassion is based on a vague love for everyone in general, not particular individuals. Of course that doesn’t work.

No, what the Jedi believed is correct. However, they took it to needless excesses and became really complacent in their standings. (A quote from my favorite guilty pleasure movie: "A pitiful thing - to love those only who love us.")
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
LeHah said:
If anything, Anakin was right in doing what he was doing. Who are the Jedi to think so highly of their own order if they refuse to undo slavery in the galaxy unless it suits their needs?

Oh, they think it's OK to free people you are not attached to. But if you happen care about them, they order you to let them suffer in slavery.

LeHah said:
No, what the Jedi believed is correct. However, they took it to needless excesses and became really complacent in their standings. (A quote from my favorite guilty pleasure movie: "A pitiful thing - to love those only who love us.")

The error in on the excess, indeed, so I don't think we disagree. There's a difference between not being too attached to things and being completely indifferent. There's no room for compassion.

Not to mention hypocrisy of the whole thing. Yoda lets Dooku escape to save two Jedi knights he cares about. Maybe just the non-Jedi are expandable.
 

Mjr. Whoopass

<FONT color=lightblue><B>I was going to say someth
I thought the movie was interesting. It seemed it was more about pulling Ep's. 1+2 together with 4-6. Since we knew all the people who would survive and that the Emporer would take control of the republic while turning Anakin, there was really nothing to root or hope for, so most of the battles and dramas were forgone conclusions. It was interesting though because you were watching Star Wars history unfold.

BTW, excellent review Delance (the one where you quoted the critic's article). The lines between the light and dark side seemed rather grey, and after reading your article, I can see why.

I'm sure people will find several errors with the movie. I noticed that General Grevious shoots the window and causes it to break, allowing him to escape. Later, we see Anakin and Obi-Wan on the ground with the ship's glass intact.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Mjr. Whoopass said:
BTW, excellent review Delance. The lines between the light and dark side seemed rather grey, and after reading your article, I can see why.

Thanks! Maybe restoring balance to the force included such issues with the Jedi Order.

Mjr. Whoopass said:
I'm sure people will find several errors with the movie. I noticed that General Grevious shoots the window and causes it to break, allowing him to escape. Later, we see Anakin and Obi-Wan on the ground with the ship's glass intact.

Not to mention he spacewalks regardless of the fact that his external organs are pretty much exposed and he was coffing (was he sick?), what probably wasn't a good thing.
 

d3r3k

Spaceman
if you pay close attention, when the camera pans back into the bridge, you can see that the blown out window has been closed up by some type of metal door. a safety feature, i'm guessing.
 

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
During the initial space battle, one of the Star Destroyers fires a powerful beam weapon from its hangar deck. Would anyone like to guess what that was?
 

Jason_Ryock

Vice Admiral
Ah well, why not?

Music: Prior to the movie I am on record as saying several things about the music of Episode III. As people insisted I waited for the movie. My original statements still stand. My feeling about the music, and about the whole of Episode III was that it was too much of a rush to mix and match everything in the origional trilogy with the prequel trilogy. I think it did this badly, and screwed up years of Star Wars Lore that have been in exsistance since the first movie. The damage to the Star Wars Universe, and to the Expanded Universe, and to dedicated fans like us is damage that will never be repaired. The music is a perfect example of this. Battle of the Heros (Incidently enough, does anyone know WHEN this music was played during the movie?) will never be as memorable as Duel of the Fates. Frequently I find myself attempting to find the seven note melody that defines it and it usually takes me five or six minutes to find it. However, when the Anakin Duel switched suddenly to the Duel of the Fates -esque music I was definatly more attatched to the movie. The Love Theme was missing, and could have played a pivitol role in setting the mood between Anakin and Padme, which was unfortunate, and the inclusion of Leia's Theme at the end was utter crap. I was very unhappy with that. Binary Sunset would have been a better choice, this movie may not have ended on a disasterous note, but it sure as hell wasn't a good one. The music should have reflected that this was a darker movie. Okay, enough about the movie. Music C+. I feel better about it having seen the movie - but it's still just movie music and not that memorable.

CGI: OMFG, where to begin. First...the Spectacular Footage Rick McCullem showed at CIII CLEARLY showed the ARC-170 fighters and Anakin and Obi-Wan dropping out of hyperspace in formation - together - before engaging in battle. Where was this scene in the movie? Once again, they took the original movie, ANH, and attempted to emulate it with the Star-Destroyer opening. Sad sad sad. And that battle was no where near as spectacular or as large as I was led to believe it was. I'm sad to say, Clone Wars did a better job of portraying this battle then the movie did. And it was a half-assed cartoon. It should have been longer. More should have happened. However, the special effects were good for this part of the movie, as we knew they would be. I was concerned about the Wookiees and the Clones, as most of that was CGI work, I expected them to look terribly cartoony, but they came off well and believeable in their limited amount of onscreen time. This was also a concern for the Yoda/Palpatine fight. Much less complaining about that part, however. I think it turned out well. Overall, on CGI work, I would have to give this movie a B+. They could have done more, and they didn't, for whatever reasons.

ACTING
Padme - well I hate to admit it, but despite the cheesy dialouge (and come on, who hasn't had "No, I love YOU more!" arguments with their girlfriends/boyfriends before?) I feel like Natalie Portman was the best in this movie, much better then in EPI and EPII. As an actress who can't really act, she did perform appropriatly in this movie, I feel. Thought I still think she's a lousy actress overall.
JarJar - Kill Mace Windu, and let JarJar live? Yeah, I think I said enough.
Mace Windu - Geeze! Whose the freaking Dark Sider? Anakin trying to save the Republic, or Windu trying to kill it's leader? Judge Jury and Executioner right there. Not only were his lines terrible, he got a pussy death getting lightening blasted out of a window. They screwed up his character, screwed up his lines, and he screwed up his acting. All around a terrible combination.
Anakin - I've never been a fan of Hayden Christionson (or however you spell it! Has anyone gotten it right yet?) and I'm still not. On a side note, how sure are we this actor is a boy? And that he's of age? Because he comes across as a spoiled smug boy who got to be in Star Wars, his acting doesn't matter - cause he's in Star Wars! I don't like him. I probably never will. I'm sure some of this is the dialouges fault. I'm sure most of it isn't because of the dialouge at all. I disliked him before, I feel the same about him now. Well, at least my opinion didn't drop any.
Yoda - sigh. Walk with a cane, fight like a whirling deverish. Sorry, just doesn't work for me anymore. Once, I can understand, but after the crap in the senate hall, the sneaking through the tunnel, the clone troopers at the temple...no. The cane has no purpose, anymore. Unless it concealed a lightsaber. Which it didn't. People gave you to much credit - I can't believe they cheered when you killed the Royal Guard. At least they don't walk around leaning on their Force Pikes. You sucked. Go back to being a puppet who does nothing. It was more interesting.
Vader - ugh. ugh. You know, there's nothing I can say about this except ugh. The acting was terrible, the moving was terrible, the new suit looked terrible. Darth Vader went from being a scary bag guy to a clown. I laughed outright. The lines were terrible too, and hearing him talk about Padme was just...strange.
Obi-Wan - Crap. I have something good to say. This ruins my review. I liked Ewan in EPI. He played a Jedi Apprentice well. I liked him in EPII, he played a Jedi Knight very well. I liked him even more in EPIII, he played a Jedi Master well. I love him. He's the only redeeming quality of the Prequels. Well him and that sleek new starfighter, the ARC-170.
R2-D2 - so I heard after the first 10 minutes of the movie I would love R2. No freaking way. They went so overboard with R2 in this movie I wanted to puke. Seriously, this is not the same droid from the Original Trilogy. You know, for me to have been happy, all they needed to do was to slow him down. That's it. He can still have oil slicks and jet legs. Just don't have him race across the room so fast. Alas, Lucas must not have been watching the CGI frame rates very closely. I'm pissed about R2. I'd like to piss on Lucas because of what he did to R2.
Aunt Beru - her smile was so big I thought she was Julie Roberts. Was that Beru, or a toothpaste Commercial? I hate you. And Lucas.
Uncle Owen - oh, standing like Luke did. Touching. I was screaming - loudly - that the movie had better not end like that, much to the amusement of the people in the theatre. And it did. I almost cried because that scence was so bad.
Bail Organa - oh hey! something else good. I liked you.
Palpatine - eh. OVERBOARD with the audio effects on your voice. It made me cringe everytime you spoke. Again, WAY to much of an effort to tie you to the older Palpatine. Who was much cooler. And scarier. And he didn't need a lightsaber to do it, either.
General Grevious - I wondered if people knew that you were coughing because of Windu. I guess I got my question answered. I recall watching someone talk about Grevious, and the Obi-Wan fight. Something about, how to have him fight an enemy with four arms when they didn't have a four armed actor to play the role. I believe the solution was, "Have him cut off two of the arms as soon as possible." I hate this kind of crap. It pisses me off about the movie. That fight should have been so great. It was great in the Clone Wars series. In fact, the Clone Wars series as a whole was better.
Overall Acting: F+ (And the + is only for Obi-Wan).

Tech/Ships: Seriously, what was the purpose of the Tantive IV? I mean seriously, there must have been five minutes of just that ship arriving and departing various locations around the galaxy. In fact, the last third of that movie felt like that ship arriving and departing - instanteously - at various locations around the galaxy. Again, one more unnecessary tie-in to the origional trilogy. The ARC-170. Ah, the ARC-170. My favorite part of the movie, I'm sad to say. It went downhill after this. I loved this fighter though, we needed more of it. Along with the Tech discussion, how about them talking droids? Unnecessary? Yes, I thought so too. And just corny and stupid. Tech and Ships get's a D- (Only because of the ARC-170). Oh okay, one more thing. Flaps. On a Starship. Flaps. Flaps on a starship. I'm changing my mind. F+ (For the ARC-170, again). Bloody Flaps, on a Starship. WHERE WERE THE WOOKIEE BOWCASTERS?

Locations: Wow, we saw what, like thirty locations? These were mostly decent. Except for a few:
Jedi Temple - needed more. More of Anakin killing. More of Obi-Wan and Yoda killing. In fact, this location just needed more killing.
Kashyyyk - seriously now, why was this planet even in the movie? If you're going to show it, do something with it. It just existed, for no reason at all. Very not happy about it, also not happy about what it did to Star Wars EU Material regarding this planet. More needed to be shown. Desperatly.
Dagobah - I know, I know, it wasn't in the movie. That's why it's on my list. Why WASN'T it? Unlike Kashyyyk, it actually served a purpose.
Mustafar - no complaints. Looked real enough. Anyone else see the Death Star images on the computer displays when Obi-Wan Anakin were dueling?
Alderaan - don't even freaking get me started. I love this planet. Not after this movie. This movie makes me want to vomit for what they did to this planet. I'm fairly certain that when writing the movie, George Lucas had a check list that goes something like, "Jungle Planet, Forest Planet, Sand Planet, Mountain Planet" and by the time he got to Alderaan Mountain Planet was all that was left. My only problem with him doing that is that the location of Aldera and the geography of Alderaan is significant to the culture of that planet. Lucas destroyed all that with his five second wet dream about what he wanted in the movie. Me? Bitter? Resentful? Never.
Coruscant - why are there suddenly two senate domes? Answer? anyone? Where is the Imperial Palace? sigh. And rain. On Coruscant. I am disappointed.
Utapi - extremely well done. As always.
Random Jungle Planet - yeah, the one where Aayla Secura died. Whatever it was called. Remind anyone of the Star Wars Holiday Special? It reminded me of that, you know what? You have to be on CRACK to see those kind of colors in a movie. Seriously. That whole planet looked CG...oh gee, maybe because it was. Disgusting. Lucas must have done drugs to come up with that kind of a planet.
Overall Locations: F------ (because of Alderaan).

Concepts
Qui-Gon Jin. Sigh. He died. He didn't become a force spirit. But apparently he knows the secret to becoming one? Sorry, this just doesn't float with me. Another desperate attempt to reconnect with the original trilogy. One of the scripts I read explained a bit more of this. That scene NEEDED to be in the movie. Without it, this was just crap. And the idea that Yoda, a 900 year old Jedi Master needed to learn from a dead failed Jedi Master just doesn't float with me. At all. that was crap. Luke and Leia ending up on Tatooine and Alderaan - that was crap. Wiping Threepios memory. That was crap. It was almost like some of this stuff was dumped into the movie to explain stuff from the original trilogy...and then left a bunch of empty holes in the areas it was explaining. For overall plot suckage, I give his movie a D-. I mean, the battle of Coruscant was supposed to decide - one way or another - the end of the Clone Wars. And then we see several more Clone Trooper battles, and this battle is given a measly six minutes at the start of the movie? Let's get with it - how long was the Space Battle in ROTJ? And another thing, where WERE all the battles we were supposed to see? Wookiees, Clones, and Fighters got the least amount of screen time. It was all obsessed with the chessy Anakin dialouge. Suckage. Big time. This movie was supposed to be pure action.

The Immolation Scene
Yup, this gets its own category. It gets a C. Yup. I said a C. Why? Because the walking of Anakin was important - he had his legs cut off and was just fitted with droid prosthetics. He had to learn to walk all over again. He should have smashed more things. Shouted more. Palpatine should have told him how evil the Jedi were. Then they should have freed him and helped him up. Kudos for including Tarkin at the End though, that even looked like a 20 year younger Tarkin. I was impressed. This still needed massive improvement. It would have been more dramatic in silence. or with better music.

Dialouge: oh god. Do I even need to say it. F------ It was crap. I could have written better drunk and drugged up. Wait, I saw that movie...Moulin Rouge, wasn't it?

Overall:
Okay, here it is, overall. I think that Star Wars was better without this crap addition to the movie. I decided my Children would watch 4-5-6 first, so they could have the Darth Vader is Lukes Father moment. Now, they might only watch 4-5-6. I was happier with 1 and 2 then I am with 3. This movie was a terrible addition. In fact, I think I may watch the 25 episodes of the Clones Wars again, and replace my memory of my movie with them - they were that much better. In fact, any one of them was that much better then this movie. I was led to expect great things. Overall Grade D-. It will appeal to most of the casual Star Wars fans, but for the fanatics, Lucas sunk lower then EP1 and EP2 had already gone.

Summary of Grades:
MUSIC: C+
CGI: B+
ACTING: F+
TECH/SHIPS: F+
LOCATIONS: F-
PLOT/CONCEPTS: D-
IMMOLATION: C
DIALOUGE: F-
OVERALL: D-
 

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Fenris Ulven said:
a powerful beam from a kind of powerful beam weapon, maybe? :D

Very informative! Thanks for that wonderful morsel of intellectual gold!

I was hoping that a Star Wars fan might shed some light on this gun that hasen't been seen in any previous Star Wars film.

Why broadside in ship-to-ship battles when the Star Destroyers could easily destroy the other sides capital ships with a single hit from this gun?
 

d3r3k

Spaceman
because it looks cooler.

Jason -- i'm glad someone has the same views on the movie as i do.

i'm also thinking of picking up clone wars on dvd.
 

Ptarmigan

Spaceman
I saw Episode 3 on the day of opening. Really good movie. Better than Episode 1 and 2. It bridge the two trilogies well.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Delance said:
The error in on the excess, indeed, so I don't think we disagree. There's a difference between not being too attached to things and being completely indifferent. There's no room for compassion.

I think being unattached would be wonderful for a diplomatic situation, while compassion for, I don't know, for something else? I think it all depends on the situation.

Delance said:
Yoda lets Dooku escape to save two Jedi knights he cares about. Maybe just the non-Jedi are expandable.

I wonder if that would've changed if Yoda knew the lengths upon which Dooku carried the war in later years.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Delance, I think your PoV is too strict. The jedi aren't as callous as that. The problem was that they didn't know very well how to deal with the emotional issues derived from Anakin's uniqueness. ALL jedi are without family... Either a mother or a wife (or husband). They impose this on themselves because of the dangers of strong emotions to one who follows the force. But they do condone such feelings on anyone OUTSIDE the order.

Of course, the Jedi Order in the prequels is indeed flawed and complacent, and that is part of their fall. But Palpatine cared for Anakin's family even less than Yoda. The death and suffering of Padme was a prerequisite to Anakin's fall... I do think it was Palpatine himself that "broadcast" both nightmares into Anakin's mind. Just as Vader used the force to make Luke go to Bespin. Maybe the jedi council should have worried about Anakin's mother and wife a bit more, but they weren't fundamentaly wrong. A Jedi has no personal attachments because love leads to fear of losing... They can't afford it. It is pretty sad, but it's part of the deal, and the republic was at stake. If anakin was found at the right age, he would probably be ready to let go of his mother... and wouldn't get involved with padme.

I think the harsh picture you painted may be a tad biased and unidimensional. it is pretty interesting, nevertheless. Worst of all, accusing them of not caring for anyone outside the order and of being without compassion is trully absurd. EVERYTHING they do and dedicate their lives is out of compassion. Even though they have all those cool powers and sabers, their life ultimatelly sucks. They are alone, other people do not understand them, they have not a single minute of rest, they die, they suffer... they give their entire lives to the service of the republic and its people. MAYBE, just MAYBE, the jedi of the time were forgetfull of that. But I doubt it.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
The strength and weakness of the prequels is within the nuances. People felt that things like a trade disagreement and senate hearings and talks with the Jedi order were boring - but that was the whole point of the prequels. It was a political uprising, which is usually a very tricky situation.

All the thought was there for these newer movies but the execution was sloppy.
 

Sgt_thomson

Spaceman
I saw one of the first showings at 0035 on the 19th and I thought the movie was great. I do agree though that the movie had to fast a pace though and the ending was realy lame.
 

Lord Tauk

Spaceman
I just saw it tonight. It was alright, wasn't as good as I thought all the hype made it out to be, but it was definently worth the money and then some. I'll see it again before it's out of the theaters.

I was really dropping my jaw when I saw Order 66 carrying out, the whole theater (which was packed by the way) was in dead silence when the clones started to turn against the Jedi. The Younglings was a sad thing to see happen.. all the light saber duels were awesome. I felt sorry for Mace Windu, especially after the three jedi he brought with him to arrest Palps all but bit the dust practically in 4 seconds.

It was an awesome Star Wars movie.

There quite a few young kids there, they didn't seem to have a problem with it.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
LeHah said:
I think being unattached would be wonderful for a diplomatic situation, while compassion for, I don't know, for something else? I think it all depends on the situation.

It would be bad for a diplomatic situation, as the individual would have no reason for being loyal to the side he’s representing.

LeHah said:
I wonder if that would've changed if Yoda knew the lengths upon which Dooku carried the war in later years.

He knew it all right, he was more aware of the situation then Obi-Wan, who also said it.

Edfilho said:
Delance, I think your PoV is too strict. The jedi aren't as callous as that. The problem was that they didn't know very well how to deal with the emotional issues derived from Anakin's uniqueness. ALL jedi are without family... Either a mother or a wife (or husband). They impose this on themselves because of the dangers of strong emotions to one who follows the force. But they do condone such feelings on anyone OUTSIDE the order.

The idea that this is a jedi-only rule doesn't fly because Anakin is intende to be an archetype that transcends SW. The path that leads him to evil is not restricted to SW. The movie is there to voice this opinion that all attachments lead to fear from losing, what leads to suffering and then evil.

I did hear on a couple of interviews Lucas speaking of how Anakin is egotistical because he doesn’t want to let people go, and this leads him to evil. That’s a pretty weird way to think about it. Almost everyone is afraid to lose what they have, and that means that what they have is dear to them. Excessive detachment is not different from complete indifference. Where’s the seduction? Anakin went to the Dark Side out of desperation, reluctantly.

Is it compassion to let Anakin’s mother a slave, to force him to break his promise to free her, and allow her to suffer a horrible fate? Jedi knew this would happen, as the dreams of those strong in the force often predict the future. But they tell him to just let it go. Maybe all of them never met their mothers so they have no such fears, but then they wouldn’t have such dreams, or such rules.
 
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