EPISODE 3 Discussion

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
cff said:
How powerful is Yoda really in the end BTW. Everybody talks as how he is the strongest, but E3 would actually place Mace Windu into that spot, doesn't it?
Mace just happens to be the best with a lightsaber. Everyone turns to Yoda because he's the most wise - and as far as we know, the oldest in the order.
 

=Shadow=

Rear Admiral
OK, a few of Jason_Ryock's points were left unchallenged. You don't know as much as you think you do about Star Wars, so here are my corrections:

Wookie Bowcasters: You claim there aren't any in the movie. Well, almost every wookie warrior uses them in the brief battle on Kashyyyk. Just look closer.

Flaps on starships: By logic, any starship capable of atmospheric re-entry and landing should be equipped with flaps (a lot of them) to reduce airspeed and thus facilitate touchdown. Why not retro-thrusters? Unnecessary waste of fuel. Why not gravitational repulsors? At high altitude, they wouldn't be very effective being quite far from the planet's core, and they wouldn't work on time to prevent the ship from crashing. The repulsors would serve as a secondary aid, but nothing more.

Aldera: It's never mentioned that the mountain city in Alderaan is its capital, Aldera. It could be another settlement where Bail's mountain retreat is, who knows. And again you think that by seeing a very small part of a planet you've got its entire surface figured out. Any planet has mountains, for Christ's sake.

Two Senate domes: It was my impression that the smaller dome served as an entrance to the main dome (a large part of it was some kind of a parking lot, and then followed by a huge hall with red carpets and columns everywhere). At any rate, the camera's angles and positions in the previous movies couldn't have shown the smaller dome, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there till Episode III.

Luke and Leia on Tatooine and Alderaan, respectively: Crap? Geez, that's where they were hidden from the Empire. Damn, I don't want to believe you didn't know that...

Wiping the droids' memories: Both R2 and Threepio had critical information about the twins', Yoda's and Obi-Wan's locations in their memory. Should have they been captured by the imperials, it'd have all gone to hell. Again, common sense.

Yoda: About the cane, as it has already been mentioned, Yoda used the Force only when it was absolutely necessary. The Gimer Cane not only helps him walk, but also meditate (it has organic substances that stimulate meditation when chewed). That's not a theory, it's a fact, straight from Episode I Visual Dictionary. And regarding Yoda supposedly learning from Qui-Gon to become a Force spirit, that's also not true. It's your very own impression that he needed to learn the secret (his spirit shows up at the very end of ROTJ). Why didn't he taught Obi-Wan that then? Because such training requires an extensive amount of time, which both Jedi didn't have since they had to go into hiding immediately.

Swing Wings: WTF? They aren't even called "Variable Geometry Wings" either (those are modern aircraft terms, not SW, i.e. F-14 Tomcat). They're called X-Foils, and mentioned both in Episode III and IV, by ARC-170 and X-Wing pilots, respectively, in the same phrase: "Lock X-Foils in attack position!"

EDIT: S-Foils, not X-Foils.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
=Shadow= said:
They're called X-Foils, and mentioned both in Episode III and IV, by ARC-170 and X-Wing pilots, respectively, in the same phrase: "Lock X-Foils in attack position!"
It's actually S-Foils, if you read the script or novel
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Based on the fact that Mace Windu effectively beat Palpatine, while Yoda couldn't, would suggest that Mace is stronger than Yoda.
Only Mace didn't beat Palpy, he just let him appear to have done it, so that he could break Annakin. As soon as Anakin was broken, Palpy stopped the charade and dispatched Mace. Just note the difference in attitude. after Anakin gives in, Palpatine drops the weakness and become strong again.

He was never beaten.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Mace certainly did beat Palpatine - the majority of the fight took place before Anakin even showed up and the whole of it was Palpatine being beat back. However, Palpatine was manipulitive in his "I can't hold on" dialouge.
 

Jason_Ryock

Vice Admiral
Okay Shadow, you're just stupid, so here's the word on where you're wrong.

Wookiee Bowcasters: Incorrect. You didn't watch the movie correctly. I suggest you look online for images of the Wookiees in EP3, and then learn how to spell Wookiee correctly. According to OFFICIAL PROP MAKERS FROM THE STAR WARS MOVIE no Wookiee Bowcaster props were used physically or in CG. They use a variety of oversize and galmerous looking hand weapons. In fact, for those of us who attended Celebration III, a number of said props were on display in the LucasFilm Archives room. Also, there is a video avialable (maybe to hyperspace only members) that discusses the development of Wookiee weapons, including a pan across about 200 props used in the movies - again, no bowcasters amoung them. However, now that I am thinking this line of thought out more I realize the weapons used by the Wookieees in EP3 look alot sleeker and nicer then the bowcaster, which has a more "gritty" feel to it. And Lucas said at an interview about EPI he wanted the technology to look more old and underdeveloped in EP4-6 then he did in EP1-3, which fits with the Wookiees not using bowcasters. Additional source is the Wizards of the Coast minatures game, which has no less then four Wookiee minatures from EP3 in their Revenge of the Sith set, none of whom are armed with bowcasters.

Flaps on starships: I agree completely, any starship capable of entering an atmosphere could use flaps. Wait a minute...did we just say STARship? As in, for travel through SPACE? Additionaly the Victory Star Destroyer was, supposedly, the only capital starship made to enter the atmosphere of a planet, and it does NOT have flaps (though it does have aerodynamic surfaces to generate additional life). Personally, if I was desiging a spaceship, I wouldn't waste space room and mechanics on a part of the ship that might be used from time to time. A majority of Capital ships are built to fight other capital ships in space, not land on a planet. Exceptions include the Acclamator-class Troop Transports from EPII and EPIII, but I would like to point out, those are troop transports, not the Flag Ship of an assault fleet on an Enemy Capital planet.

Aldera: The images of Aldera come directly from previous concept art work by Ralph McQuarrie, if you are familar with this art work at ALL it is impossible to confuse that city with Aldera. The layout and buildings appear in the same pattern....only this time in mountains instead of a lake. My personal opinion is that this was down to differentiate Alderaan from Naboo, which makes a good deal of sense as I am not sure it was ever Lucas' intention to show Alderaan when he made EPI (Because the better thing to do would have been to show Naboo as mountains instead of Alderaan). However, if you notice, both Theed and "Aldera" sit atop sheer cliff faces, which confuses me to some degree and I don't paticularly agree with. It's like he wanted the two to be similar, but not similar. Make up your mind Mr. Lucas.

Two Senate domes: There's actually several establishing shots in Episode I and Episode II that should display a second dome if it was there. My theory original was that this was the home away from home of the senators or for visitng dignataries. I actually still support this theory, as there are only two bits of data to contradict this. First, the Chancellors office is obviously in the Senate Dome itself, as the room next to it contains the platfrom he stands on to speak, that rises up out of the floor. Second, Senator Amidalas apartment complex is a seperate building from this second dome. This leads me to a new theory, and that is that the second dome has a dual purpose. First of all it is a spaceport for incoming dignatries and VIPS, and inside of it has offices and apartments for them to stay at while they are on Coruscant. Obviously, not every senator could have an office in the Senate Building, but it makes sense for the Chancellor to. And while Amidala is still an important person on Naboo she is no longer queen, or a princess, meaning that she could no longer live in the Palace on Naboo and would have to maintain a home elsewhere. As she serves the Senate on Coruscant, Coruscant is the likely place for her to have this apartment. However, I hope that they do go back to EP1 and EP2 and work to establish that second dome into the movies, because there are several key shots that should include that do not.

Luke and Leia on Tatooine and Alderaan, respectively: First of all, showing these scenes were unnecessary. Secondly, the Tantive IV is somehow managing to cross the galaxy multiple times in the last half hour of the movie without ever entering hyperspace. Now granted, we don't need to see it entry hyperspace ten times, but they don't even do that once. It's just 10 shots of the ship arriving and departing various multi-colored orbs set against a starry backdrop. This gets a little bit bland. Thirdly, Luke standing on the embankment at the Lars Moisture Farm on Tatooine was symbolic. He was looking into the twin setting suns and wondering if there is more the galaxy. This fits with his character and with his heritage - he always wanted more. Owen Lars on the other hand, "didn't hold with [Lukes] fathers ideals." he thought that Anakin should have stayed on Tatooine and been a moisture farmer. Okay, so if Owen Lars is content with his destiny, and thinks everyone should be content to just be a moisture farmer, why is he staring away into the stars? That was probably the most offensive thing in the movies, to me. You took a sacred scene in Star Wars and turned it into a silly connection between two movies. How many people haven't had a moment where they've just stared off at something, wondering about Life? They destroyed Luke's character in EPIV and Own's Character at the same time.

Wiping the droids' memories: Only C3PO has his memory wiped. Go see the movie again. They both should have been wiped, IMO. And here's another thing. If C3PO was built by Anakin, then he was a one-of-a-kind model. There weren't 30 billion differant models running around the galaxy. Granted, most people on Tatooine wouldn't know the differance, but wouldn't Owen Lars? Or Beru? Maybe that's why she asks for one that speaks Boche...

Yoda: Sigh sigh sigh. You need to check your facts. First of all there is a missing seen from EPIII which has Yoda talkng to Qui-Gon Gin about the Whimm. Secondly, it's in the novel - making this fact line official to George Lucas. You want to talk about time? Yoda has had 900 years to Master the Force, and 800 of them were spent training Jedi. He had plenty of time to Master the Force. My problem is, Qui-Gon is defeated so easily he's almost insignificant, and Yoda manages to fight two Dark Lords of the Sith. There's something confusing about that, to me, especially when you think about the fact that Qui-Gon DIDN'T become one with the Force. Yet he's somehow a master of it? As for the cane bit, it still doesn't suit me. Looking back over some of the arguments on this thread I've realized that without the EPII fight the EPIII fight would have looke ridiculous, and without the EPIII fight we would have been wondering forever why Yoda never went to fight the Emporer and instead sent Luke. So I can accept the fighting but the can bit still bothers me a little. I think its because he's all CG in the new movies, and was a puppet before. And there was an emphasis on making the puppet look like he needed a cane where as in some shots Yoda doesn't even look like he has anything resembling a sekelton to support his body (But hey! It's Star Wars - maybe he doesn't!).

Swing Wings: I don't deny the exsistance of Swing Wings. I have a new quote to put in here, I don't know who said it. They said X-Wings and ARC-170s are meant to go together, and that "Lucas isn't Subtle." This is true. In fact, none of EP3 was subtle. It was a beat-the-idea-that-it-ties-with-EP4-into-their-heads-at-all-costs kind of movie. Which is where most of my objections to it come from. I think a litte more subtly would have gone a long way. ARC-170s are a great design, maybe if you took away their swing wings for the movie they would have flowed into the Z-95 design better. In fact, if you gave them all six wings, and made the smaller ones not swing, I can easily see how the design would have gone into the X-Wing as well as the Z-95. I don't think it was necessary to mimic the X-Wing almost completely for the EP3 movie, when theres still 20 years of history to cover.
Now, about Variable Geometry Wings. Swing wings are only ONE TYPE of variable geometry wings, Variable Gemotry Wings are the "wings of a craft capable of forming more then one position to enhance performance." Which means I was correct in calling them Variable-geometry wings. I never denied that they do exist, it's very clear that they do (And the term S-Foils is used three times in the movies, not just two, but since you didn't know the line I don't expect you to know when it gets said either). However, what is NOT used anywhere in the movies is the term X-Wing or ARC-170. Well, okay. I guess X-Wing might be used in Empire when they're talking about escorting the transports off Hoth. I'm not to sure. But the point is you can hardly consider those names canon if they aren't in the movie. As was stated early, in the script the fighter is only identified as the Clone Fighter.

ADDITIONALY:
In the Return Of the Jedi:
(After Luke cut Vader hand)
Palpatine: Oh Vader! this is the fifth arm you lose. What's your problem man!!
Vader also loses a hand in Splinter in the Minds Eye, and Mara Jade (The Emporers hand) later mentions that he also lost one to the Emporer (These were early EU attempts to explain why Vaders arm was mechanical in EPIV). Just an interesting bit of trivia, that would mean he actually loses 7 arms (Though your number of 5 is still correct in ROTJ.

And:
Mace Windu Vs. Grevious

An argument has been made in this very thread, that it is your intentions not your actions that ultimately lead you to the Darkside. This argument was made to defend Mace Windus actions in confronting and nearly killing Palpatine. However, there's a hole in this theory. How does this jive with Anakin's actions? He sought to save Amidalas life, which was selfish, yes. But he also sought to preserve and defend the Republic. Remember, his intention was to have Padme become his wife, and "together" they would rule the Galaxy - as it should be. His intentions were for the good of Galaxy, not the tyranny and oppression of everyone. Granted, killing Tuskan Raiders and their familes was a darkside act, to be sure. But he believed that the Jedi had betrayed the Republic. The same with the Seperatist leaders. It was all in the defense of the Republic and the Galaxy. So someone tell me how that brings him to the Darkside - his actions may have been evil, but his intent certainly wasn't.
 
Edfilho said:
Only Mace didn't beat Palpy, he just let him appear to have done it, so that he could break Annakin. As soon as Anakin was broken, Palpy stopped the charade and dispatched Mace. Just note the difference in attitude. after Anakin gives in, Palpatine drops the weakness and become strong again.

He was never beaten.
Gotta go along with this. It was clearer to me the second time I watched it. Palpatine took a page from Ali: Rope-A-Dope. He baited Windu in, forced Anakin to make an immediate choice, and wham! Smack-down!
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Jason_Ryock said:
Okay Shadow, you're just stupid, so here's the word on where you're wrong.
Shadow's stupid? He's not the one whining about how a single two-second shot of mountains makes Alderaan a mountain planet. He's also not the one whining about how Lucas is a horrible jerk for including stuff from other SW sources... and even more of a jerk for not including stuff from other SW sources.

Also, be warned - I'm allergic to people spouting nonsense and then having the nerve to call somebody else stupid. Keep it up, and I'll close this thread.
 

Ghost

Emperor
Jason_Ryock said:
Okay Shadow, you're just stupid, so here's the word on where you're wrong.

Wookiee Bowcasters: Incorrect. You didn't watch the movie correctly. I suggest you look online for images of the Wookiees in EP3, and then learn how to spell Wookiee correctly. According to OFFICIAL PROP MAKERS FROM THE STAR WARS MOVIE no Wookiee Bowcaster props were used physically or in CG. They use a variety of oversize and galmerous looking hand weapons. In fact, for those of us who attended Celebration III, a number of said props were on display in the LucasFilm Archives room. Also, there is a video avialable (maybe to hyperspace only members) that discusses the development of Wookiee weapons, including a pan across about 200 props used in the movies - again, no bowcasters amoung them. However, now that I am thinking this line of thought out more I realize the weapons used by the Wookieees in EP3 look alot sleeker and nicer then the bowcaster, which has a more "gritty" feel to it. And Lucas said at an interview about EPI he wanted the technology to look more old and underdeveloped in EP4-6 then he did in EP1-3, which fits with the Wookiees not using bowcasters. Additional source is the Wizards of the Coast minatures game, which has no less then four Wookiee minatures from EP3 in their Revenge of the Sith set, none of whom are armed with bowcasters.
Incorrect smartass
go watch the movie again
timestamp 0:50:07 a Wookie using a bowcaster clearly
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Dumbassness defeated one part at a time. Not unlike stomping out pinic ants or Antman.

Jason_Ryock said:
Wookiee Bowcasters: Incorrect. You didn't watch the movie correctly. I suggest you look online for images of the Wookiees in EP3, and then learn how to spell Wookiee correctly. According to OFFICIAL PROP MAKERS FROM THE STAR WARS MOVIE no Wookiee Bowcaster props were used physically or in CG.
Ghost pointed out above. You also failed to back up your claim with any sort of quote from a factual source. At best, such a claim is conjecture and will remain as such, especially considering it's coming from you of all people. I have no problem being proven wrong but I have absolutely no tolerance for lies in an arguement based on fact.

Jason_Ryock said:
Additional source is the Wizards of the Coast minatures game
Non-canon source. Dismissed.

Jason_Ryock said:
Additionaly the Victory Star Destroyer...
Non-canon item. Dismissed.


Jason_Ryock said:
A majority of Capital ships are built to fight other capital ships in space, not land on a planet.
I think thats up to the writers to decide, not anonymous people on the internet who make a bad habit of not only making asses of themselves but perpetuating the "nerd" stereotype with this kind of ceaseless rabble. Admittedly, I'm not sure why a ship that size would need to land - God knows it would've helped on Star Trek a couple of times - but I'm sure they could find a reason.

Jason_Ryock said:
Aldera: The images of Aldera come directly from previous concept art work by Ralph McQuarrie
Unused concept art is non-canon material. Dismissed.


Jason_Ryock said:
My personal opinion is that this was down to differentiate Alderaan from Naboo
Your opinion is non-canon. Dismissed.

Jason_Ryock said:
I am not sure it was ever Lucas' intention to show Alderaan when he made EPI
Conjecture is non-canon. Dismissed.

Jason_Ryock said:
However, if you notice, both Theed and "Aldera" sit atop sheer cliff faces, which confuses me to some degree and I don't paticularly agree with.
1.) Mass rock formations do not make places relative to each other. Dismissed.

2.) What you agree with is non-canon. Dismissed.

Jason_Ryock said:
Make up your mind Mr. Lucas.
What Lucas has to say is canon, as opposed to you, who is a poster child for non-canon schlock. Dismissed.

Jason_Ryock said:
My theory original was that this was the home away from home of the senators or for visitng dignataries.
Conjecture. Dismissed.

Jason_Ryock said:
I actually still support this theory
Supporting conjecture still makes it non-canon. Dismissed.


Jason_Ryock said:
This leads me to new theory
Conjecture. Dismissed.

Jason_Ryock said:
Secondly, the Tantive IV is somehow managing to cross the galaxy multiple times in the last half hour of the movie without ever entering hyperspace.
Nitpicking things that happen off-screen or saying insinuations are discounted is stupid. Dismissed.


Jason_Ryock said:
Okay, so if Owen Lars is content with his destiny, and thinks veryone should be content to just be a moisture farmer, why is he staring away into the stars?
It was a nice sunset, thats all.

Jason_Ryock said:
That was probably the most offensive thing in the movies, to me. You took a sacred scene in Star Wars and turned it into a silly connection between two movies.
This coming from you of all people. I think I like this scene more if only because you're so obviously stupid, the fact that I did like it must be evidence of the fact that I'm smarter and a better person than you.

Jason_Ryock said:
Wiping the droids' memories: Only C3PO has his memory wiped. Go see the movie again.
R2's programming is overridden during the opening of Episode IV. He then picks up a "slight flutter". All of this could constitute a memory issue.

Jason_Ryock said:
They both should have been wiped, IMO.
Opinion is not canon. Dismissed.

Jason_Ryock said:
If C3PO was built by Anakin, then he was a one-of-a-kind model.
Droid assembly kits probably exist. Next.

Jason_Ryock said:
Yoda: Sigh sigh sigh. You need to check your facts. First of all there is a missing seen from EPIII which has Yoda talkng to Qui-Gon Gin about the Whimm.
Statement made without source or specific evidence. Put by the wayside as conjecture.

Jason_Ryock said:
Secondly, it's in the novel - making this fact line official
Page number, please. Dismissed until then.

Jason_Ryock said:
You want to talk about time? Yoda has had 900 years to Master the Force, and 800 of them were spent training Jedi.
Source that states years teaching, please. Dismissed until then.

Jason_Ryock said:
As for the cane bit, it still doesn't suit me.
No one cares. Next.

Jason_Ryock said:
Vader also loses a hand in Splinter in the Minds Eye, and Mara Jade (The Emporers hand) later mentions that he also lost one to the Emporer (These were early EU attempts to explain why Vaders arm was mechanical in EPIV).
Splinter Of The Minds Eye is EU and is non-canon. Mara Jade as a character is EU, so her statement is also non-canon - even IF she said something like that, which I doubt. So far, you've thrown out statements without any facts. In a debate, you'd be thrown out of the room by now.

Jason_Ryock said:
How does this jive with Anakin's actions?
Clarify, please. You ramble incessantly and go absolutely nowhere with it.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Leh Hah, I don't know why you bothered with answering jason. It is clear he lives in his parents' basement, and all he does is annoy people on the internet with uber-nerd (and I say nerd in the worst possible sense) whinning. He can't even spell EMPEROR, instead saying that Palpatine owns an emporium. Maybe he does, but he is first and foremost the EMPEROR.

The guy can't understand that in 10 years they might have built a new dome for the senate, or that in 20 years wookies could have designed and/or adopted the bowcaster, or that this issues simply DOESN'T MATTER.

It is amazing how can someone watch the whole forest and only see a few trees and nothing more, to employ a very crappy and old analogy.
 

Haesslich

Spaceman
As I said, this was a losing argument.. but I love how LeHah pointed out that the guy arguing about the canonicity of various things from the movie and the Clone Wars series before that resorts to non-canon references like Victory-class Star Destroyers (which do not appear in the movies) and concept art (which is also not used in the movies) to justify his position.

And then goes on to say "But he point is you can hardly consider those names canon if they aren't in the movie. As was stated early, in the script the fighter is only identified as the Clone Fighter" after referencing the movie novel... which did use ARC-170, IIRC, as the name of the clone fighters. And as he himself admitted was probably there, which meant the name ARC-170 would be canon, as per Lucas' statements (referenced by himself) that the novelizations are to be considered canon sources.



Oops.
 

Ghost

Emperor
Even more smartass, check the SW database!

http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/bowcaster/index.html

Look at this!

'' A melding of varied technologies, the crossbow weapon fires energy blasts with explosive force. These Wookiee weapons are often hand-crafted, and vary in size and deadliness. The Wookiee warriors charged with protecting Kashyyyk from the invading forces of the Separatists during the Clone Wars carried large laser crossbows in addition to their rifles and pistols. Later, during the Galactic Civil War, Chewbacca was known to carry a smaller, more machined version of the weapon''.
 

Dahan

Rear Admiral
I have lost track of all the dicussion and debats about Episode 3. Can someone please summarise the main points/issues that we are all discussing please
 

Haesslich

Spaceman
Dahan said:
I have lost track of all the dicussion and debats about Episode 3. Can someone please summarise the main points/issues that we are all discussing please
What it boils down to seems to consist of three different ideas, at least in this thread:

1) Episode III isn't subtle - it clubs everyone who watches it over the head with references to 'later' Star Wars events and tries to tie together many of the themes started in Episodes I and II in order to form the basis of the next 'trilogy' of films.

2) Episode III isn't much like the first two prequels - more emphasis on action and a plot that moves along at a the speed of a hyperspace jump compared to the relatively sedate Episodes I and II.

3) Jason Ryock has a big problem with Ep III due to its apparent 'canonization' of what he considers to be non-canon (read: not in the movies) elements - things like the ARC-170 and General Grevious, along with the scenes shown in Aldera and Kashyyyk are what he objects most to here, along with what he sees as being 'non canon' things he dislikes being taken by Lucas and made into an official part of the universe. It should be noted that he uses non-canon sources in order to make his point, even if said points fall apart under closer examination.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Haesslich said:
3) Jason Ryock has a big problem with Ep III due to its apparent 'canonization' of what he considers to be non-canon (read: not in the movies) elements
You forgot to mention, he also has a problem with Ep III due to its apparent non-canonisation of what he considers to be non-canon.


....Huh?
 

cff

Kilk'dymga'qith laq Ik'vikvi
Haesslich's 3 points sum it up pretty well. I'd add a #4:
* Despite the need for subtelity to portrait the descent of Anakin to the dark side E3 holds true to Lucas and SW in general. Or in other words - everything besides the action is lacking, which is especially sad in this case.
 
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