Dos Secret Missions 1.5

Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by Baggins, Nov 17, 2016.

  1. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff

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    A Wing Commander film without Pilgrims would have probably been a better choice. The pilgrim plot (in it's original intention, not the end result we got) on it's own is an interesting story and Blair's abilities are tied to that plot so I disagree to some extent that the movie Chris Roberts set out to make (based on the shooting script) could work without it. It possibly could even have been a good movie with the right support from producers and such. However it probably should not have been Blair's story, but it is what we got, and for that reason I hope you guys all are understanding that I usually approach this topic from that angle.

    Sure the theatrical cut bare-bones Kilrathi invasion story could be told just fine without Pilgrims or Blair's abiliities, but that version of the movie's story would have needed a rewrite... or a different script altogether to flesh out everything in the absence of any character development, and to make the Kilrathi a real threat with some better explaining behind their motives. They shot a movie about Pilgrims and then tried to make it about a Kilrathi invasion in the editing room.

    The movie script (at least in the original draft) does tend to channel Star Wars quite a bit though in general. As much as Wing Commander was inspired by WW2 it was also inspired by Star Wars. The comparisons aren't a mistake.

    Wing Commander always felt more grounded in sci-fi compared to Star Wars being essentially a fantasy film set in space. People got upset that it seemed like the movie was trying to add space magic to a series that, up until that point, seemed to avoid anything that may have looked like it (though there was that time that Viking looking dude visited the Claw looking for an orb). This is the opposite problem people had with The Phantom Menace. People complained that Lucas was taking their space magic story and taking the magic out of it. However people weren't mad because midichlorians somehow made Luke special ahead of time. Luke was special because he was force sensitive regardless of whether it was space magic or space amoebas. This was already established many times by things Yoda and Obi-wan had said in the original trilogy. [Just as an aside, I will add that The Phantom Menace doesn't explicitly say that the midichlorians are the source of the force either. That actually would seem to contradict everything we're ever told about how the Force works, and how it's an energy that's present in every single living thing. It actually sounds like they are more some kind of symbiotic parasite that is found in high concentrations in people that are force sensitive, which gives the Jedi a convenient way to test if people would be a good candidate for Jedi training. ]

    It likely would have been much better to not invite the comparison between WC and Star Wars in the first place. Even so, editing Blair's internal struggles out of the film only further served to emphasize his 'powers' when part of the point of the pilgrim plot is that Blair doesn't feel special and rejects the idea that he's special. The pilgrims felt they deserved to be treated special for it and there was a civil war where most of them were wiped out because of it.

    Having Blair's abilities being genetics based doesn't change whether he's an 'everyman'. The disconnect for us fans is more as you mentioned that Blair was no longer my or your character. That's not so much an internal problem with the script or story being told though. That's more of the danger of adapting a game and sticking to the characters established in the game. How us fans of the games view the movie as opposed to how the movie stacks up as a stand alone piece of art (or entertainment) aren't the same at all. A movie even if it's decided it's somehow tied in to the game canon typically should have it's own internal consistency and be accessible to a broader audience. There's been a marked for more direct tie in films but usually those area direct to DVD or direct to digital tie ins of varying quality like some of the more recent final fantasy, or Mass Effect and Deadspace animated films. They usually have a really small budget and are sold almost exclusively to fans of the series.

    Edited for clarity... I was in a rush when I originally wrote this, so, yeah, lets blame it on that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
  2. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    There is that moment when Blair's fathers "vision" also tells Blair to push a button to save himself. That was slightly supernatural/precognitive.
     
  3. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    Midiclorians are poorly disguised version of real life mitochondria.
     
  4. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff

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    This is in the novels right? Because I'm 100 percent certain that's not in the script or film.

    Edit - Doh, you're talking about that other WCA-TV episode. The subconcious does all kinds of strange things in the name of self preservation, so we don't have to assume that one was literally something supernatural.
     
  5. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    Ya, but it sounds kinda like the Majel Barrett AIs on the Star Trek, somewhat electronic/robotic.
    True but I've seen some members describe his appearance as a "ghost" what with him supposed to be dead. It does seem kinda "Tanque Dimension"-esque in hind sight.

    But then I've always been confused if that was his miltary father (he looks like he is in a uniform with medals). Or his StarPeace anti-war foster dad. Either way he writes to a living dad of some sort throughout the series.
     
  6. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    Blair has a nice confused family history now, but at least in the context of the show alone it was intended to be a hallucination of a living character rather than a ghostly visit.
     
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  7. delMar

    delMar Rear Admiral

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    Just saw this post on top of the Recent Post's listing. I'll add a bit to the technical discussion, if you don't mind. And as this seems to be the thread of lengthy posts, I'll try to do my best to comply :)

    Changing filenames is just one of the required steps :)

    No, it's not the same engine. It's more that the SWC engine and the WC1 engine works with a very similar data structure for missions, briefings, dialogs, etc.

    Yes, but you have to take care about some things, otherwise you'll screw up the file structure and the game will probably just crash.

    Primarily, you need to know a bit about how data is structures. One byte is for the number of opponents at a specific nav point, another byte is about the enemy fighter's AI, etc. The forum holds a good amount of threads where lots of skilled engineers discussed all that things.

    Yes, we (@HCl started documenting most of it) managed to figure that out to a pretty large extent, but there's still some unknown bytes left.
    For non-engineers to be able to create custom missions, one would need an editor. Directly working with data files is not only too tedious, it's also very error prone.

    And then, some things about the current state of the mod:
    @UnnamedCharacter did an awesome job by writing tools that allowed to extract all mission, dialog, etc information from SWC and re-encode it into the structure that fits the DOS engine.
    So, to be honest: this mod doesn't have a single byte touched by a human. It's just been dumped from SWC and inserted into WC1. No tweaking, no optimizing.
    This should explain why Nav points are a mess, encounters don't seem to be balanced well, and in general things don't feel quite finished.

    As for the missing background images (like, in Halcyon's office); that's a limitation of the DOS engine.
    Backgrounds are only loaded when needed. None of the original games ever had a briefing scene in his office. That's why that background image is not loaded. So, fixing this really requires modification of the game's engine, which is way beyond of my skills. To be honest, I'm completely flashed that the engine compensates this by showing a fall-back background instead of just crashing.
     
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  8. delMar

    delMar Rear Admiral

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    @Shot, thanks for taking the time to do the extensive review.

    Regarding the broken installer .bat file: you're absolutely right, this was done for Windows. I'm lacking an authentic DOS machine. But I'll do that. For you. Soon.

    And sorry for getting the bad ending. References to what cutscenes are supposed to be played are not inside the data files but inside the binary, so that'll require some technical modifications that are beyond of what was done so far for that mod.

    BUT: I loved the shout-out to potential modders :). Anyone who's serious about wanting to create a mod, let me know. That might add some motivation to get an editor done.
     
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  9. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    Well, let me clarify a bit. I agree completely that a film without the Pilgrim plot would have required a very radical rewrite. But that's not really what I was getting at (although just renaming the Pilgrims to Border Worlders would have helped sooo much, also in terms of adding depth to WC4). I think it's only the Pilgrim special abilities that spoil things - not the idea of a new space religion or of a group of human settlers separating themselves from the rest. I really don't think special navigational powers were needed at all to explain Pilgrim arrogance and the like - the conflict between the colony and the metropolis is one of the most common themes in human history, it's something that most audiences would grasp quite instinctively. I mean, at the end of the day, it's the story of a young American pilot coming aboard a Royal Navy carrier - what's not to get? :)

    What would really need to be changed in the film to work around the special abilities? Not much. The Navcom thing can stay the same, it's just that there wouldn't be that bit of conversation about the Navcom being a recreation of a Pilgrim brain. The Errant's first jump would probably need to change, but that's not a big issue. Something else could easily have been inserted into the story to compensate - I would have liked to hear a little bit more about post-war troubles with Pilgrims, which would help establish that how other characters treat Blair is not just prejudice, and also would help foreshadow the traitor plot. After that, the only other instance of Blair's special abilities is the final jump - but that doesn't even need any changing. All pilots are trained to use jump drives, so nobody would even ask questions as to why Blair manages to do it. And as for why he went... well, he went because Angel was meant to go, but diverted to take out the skipper.

    And yes, you're right that no matter what happens, Blair suddenly having a mind of his own is going to be a problem for players. But that's just the players, and as you know, the film was aiming for a much broader audience. For everybody else who hadn't played the games, obviously Blair's personality wasn't an issue. But the Star Wars comparison was something that would be visible to everyone, and while certainly not everyone would have reacted negatively to it, it seems like there was enough of a negative reaction to indicate that it overall made the film worse. (note: there's a bit of a philosophical point to be made here. Obviously, comparisons to another work go beyond the internal features of the work being critiqued - so, is it reasonable to say that Wing Commander was worse because it was more similar to Star Wars? Yes, I will say that it is. It is obviously impossible to watch films in a vacuum with no knowledge of other works, and in this way, similarities with other works become factors that can both negatively and positively affect how we perceive the quality of a given work)
     
  10. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff

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    There's a few things that should have warranted at least a partial rewrite or revision. The main choice that really scuttles the traitor plot and led to it's removal was Merlin. If Chris had known he wasn't going to be able to use Merlin or even the whole traitor subplot ahead of time, they could have rewritten the scenes and dialogue. Instead, they shot all of the scenes that included Merlin (a waste of resources that could have gone into creature effects) and had to try and edit around the character. They tried several edits of the concom raid, and they never ever really solved the problem of how do you get Blair out of the turret and onto the Concom without Merlin telling him there's a Pilgrim signal (that nobody else seems to be able to detect). There's a version where Blair just leaves. There's a version where Paladin detects the signal and mentions it to blair over the comms (using ADR to dub in dialogue from Paladin).

    Chris Roberts has been quoted as lamenting the super short pre-production schedule. It's possible if they had more time to work everything out properly they would have come to the conclusion that another script revision was needed. The Pilgrim abilities are also quite prominent in the Tiger Claw jump scene. Did anyone think it was wierd that Blair was even allowed on the Bridge during that sequence? Sure Paladin says he wants Blair there, but there's a whole deleted scene just before the jump where Paladin, Sansky, Gerald, and Angel are reviewing the situation in the Chart Room. Gerald is a bit taken aback when Paladin explains that the coordinates for the short cut they are taking are Pilgrim coordinates. When Blair enters part way through the conversation, Gerald isn't happy about him being there, and Sansky confirms that he's allowing it because Paladin thinks Blair "might have a certain skill for navigation". When everyone leaves the room, Merlin is telling Blair how much probability of failiure there is, But Blair is staring at the holo-chart readout and tells Merlin the Coordinates are correct. The jump scene, without the underlying uncertainty of the crew, or the idea that somehow the Pilgrims have access to special jump coordinates is just unecessary and redundant, especially since confed ships make jumps every day just fine.
     
  11. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    I've always sort of felt the movie had a massive, unconscious structural problem that drags it down: Earth is in trouble and the ships can't get back to Earth in time... so they call Blair on Earth and tell him to go to a ship and to bring it to Earth. It gets explained away in the movie, but it sort of subconsciously breaks the verisimilitude of the world. You go in feeling like you're in a linear, pre-defined story rather than something happening in a living universe.
     
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  12. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    What exactly does Chris Roberts want to add back into the movie if he ever gets around to that director's cut/special edition?
     
  13. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    And of course, at one point it was far worse than that - as that left-over line about everyone on Earth being "dead and buried" indicates. My goodness, what a mess it would be then - Earth is in trouble, everything will be over in a couple of days... but somehow those days are actually years or something. But to be honest, I never actually noticed the problem you mention. I haven't seen the movie in a few years, but as I remember it, it wasn't possible to send a message to the Tiger's Claw, and Blair who was on his way to the Tiger's Claw was used as the fastest possible contact option. So, it's not that this was a really fast and ideal option, but it was the best there was given the circumstances.

    ...Unless of course the problem you reference is not so much the time frame and such, but rather the fact that an otherwise irrelevant Blair is contacted about this for no particular reason (given that the orders could have gone through Paladin). Yes, that certainly was an issue that made the whole thing feel a bit artificial. There was a few of these kinds of situations around. I personally was always bothered by the scene where Paladin uses Tolwyn's ring to show that he can be trusted - not only does it seem to make no sense (how long has Paladin been holding on to this ring, given that he clearly wasn't given it just then? Why?), but it's also ridiculously melodramatic given that later in the film Paladin is able to reveal his true identity as a Confed officer simply by providing an ID number (naturally, I leave aside the continuity issue regarding Paladin's service as a pilot onboard the Tiger's Claw - that's only relevant to us fans). All these kinds of things dragged the movie down, not because they weren't plausible as such, but because they seemed really forced.

    A thought: I wonder if ultimately, the problem doesn't come down to something that Chris Roberts kind of hinted at in a couple of different interviews and things (like when he talked about the influence of The Forever War on the movie script): namely, that Chris Roberts was building a movie out of pieces of things that he liked. There are many things in the film that seem needlessly referential - some on a broad thematic level (WWII in space - the "dips" that fighters go through at the end of the runway, the depth charge scene), and others being references to specific works (e.g. Jurgen Prochnow as the captain of a submarine in space, the Forever War thing)... I wonder how many other odd bits of the film actually come from references to other films or books? I can certainly imagine Tolwyn's ring being such a case (though I can't think of anything it could be referencing). So, did Chris Roberts just give in to temptation a couple of times too many?
     
  14. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff

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    The main goal of his would be to restore the Traitor subplot. Attacthed to that would be to getting someone to do so greenscreen to create the Merlin character hologram. Second goal would be to redo all the Kilrathi effects with CG characters.

    I'll try and break down this a little more into what scenes would likely be added back in when I get back later.

    There's actually a deleted line where Paladin tells Sansky that Tolwyn gave it to him "a year ago". Tolwyn is also apparently aware of Blair's Pilgrim heritage and likely that he probably has Pilgrim abilities. For that matter he's probably aware that Paladin has them too, or at least has access to Pilgrim coordinates. Right after Tolwyn talks to Blair about taking orders to the Claw, there's another deleted scene where Belegarde argues with Tolwyn about "using Blair's son". For that matter, there's a missing line in Tolwyn's comm too where Tolwyn tells Blair his mother was a good person. To a degree, there were layers of Chris trying to set up a rivalry between Blair and Tolwyn but much or that got truncated by the time the scripts were revised and the movie got edited down.

    They also don't say that Earth wasn't defended, just that the main fleet is "40 hrs away". There's nothing to say there's not more fleets, just that the one tasked with defending earth is apparently not at earth. There could be more ships closer to earth and there's another line from Belegarde that says Earth has "defenses" which could have been something like WC2's ISS or just Turret Satellites. We don't know though, and that's a bit problematic. The 40 hrs thing, I'll address a bit further down

    Regarding Paladin, I would suppose that he was trying to maintain whatever advantage he had by keeping his cover secret, especially if he suspected there might also be Traitors on board, but that's never really made clear.

    There were likely notes about what Chris wanted to see and some basic writing guides given to Kevin Droney. If you read the first draft it's a much harder sci-fi feel going on. One of the things Chris wanted was for the Claw crew to feel isolated so that their choices to fight in the war literally meant giving up everything on Earth. You fight to defend it but you have to leave it behind. So whether the Forever war influence was something Chris specifically asked for (he claims there were traces of it's influence in the games) or something Droney came up with and Chris liked I don't know. However, the pilgrim abilities are much more relevant with the presence of time dilation. They can take jumps that shorten travel times and ultimately jumppoints let people bypass some of the relativity based aspects of space travel. Everyone flying around on the Claw would age fast while everyone "left behind" on earth would age fast. The original draft of the script has Paladin being significantly older. He was on the Iason when humanity first encountered the Kilrathi. Angel gets a comm message at one point from an old boyfriend that has grey hair and kids... someone she gave up to fight in the war. So their only family is quite literally their ship mates.

    The emphasis on travel times, the fact that Tolwyn makes a point of using Pilgrims to get a mesage to the Claw fast than the drones can (because they can use jumppoints the drones cant) and that messages take so long to get anywhere in the first place all to a degree stem from this idea that there's time dilation. The time dilation got sort-of written out, but things like the Rosie/Maniac love scene are left over from it. Sansky's deleted scene where he gives a message to the crew about their orders refers to them having to count on eachother. Blair leaving angel after the skipper missile becomes relevant. The ship crew is your family. Everyone on earth you might have loved is "already dead and buried'" and so on. So while the forever war stuff was pseudo left behind, one of the main reasons to justify the powers, the Powers didn't get written out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  15. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff

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    One other thing I should add is that overall, the movie does seem a bit 'small universe.' Everyone in command seems to know everyone else. Tolwyn addresses Sansky in the message by his first name and calls him 'old friend'. In that case it's perfectly understandable that Sansky knows what the ring is. Whether Tolwyn specifically gave the ring to Tolwyn in case he met Sansky is a possibility. Or it's possible everyone that is directly under Tolwyn's command (which Sansky would be) he's familiar with personally.

    I want to preface the next part by saying this isn't comprehensive. There's minor dialogue differences throughout the entire movie, and multiple takes... some better than others but things like eyelines and continuity don't flow between certain takes. There's alternate animatics for some scenes that aren't necessarily better, and almost all the Kilrathi scenes (and Tolwyn's scenes) have missing establishing shots of the fleets that would likely be in a special edition. Some scenes in the finished movie would likely have single line difference because they were changed in post production. Blair complains about his CO (angel) on the way to the mess hall in the theatrical cut. But Maniac's like was originally "he's just another tight ass XO" reffering to Gerald because some scenes were re-ordered. There's many instances like this throughout the film. There's probably other bits I forgot, but I think I hit most of the main ones

    Almost Certainly would be in a new Special edition

    • Merlin and Blair talk in his cabin on the diligent - Merlin's introduction
    • Before the jump, Sansky examines a photo on his desk of himself and Admiral Wilson (the Pegasus commander). After being asked to come to the chart room he takes a swig from a flask and then puts on Tolwyn's ring. (The picture part is in the movie but the dialogue is changed to calling him to the bridge and the scene is moved. The last part was deleted)
    • Kilrathi captain, Admiral, and Pilgrim traitor discuss the road to earth being open
    • Merlin detects and discusses a ULF (pilgrim) signal with Blair during the initial encounter with the Concom. It appears to be coming from the vicinity of the claw.
    • The Kilrathi Admiral talks to the captain and the traitor about the encounter with the Rapiers. He tells the Traitor that his friend on the Claw is dedicated, He orders the ambush to be set
    • Sansky asks Blair about the ULF signal. The claw AI denies any signal having been sent
    • Gerald tells an injured Sansky (after the ambush and flight deck decompression scene) he suspects there's a traitor on board. A revealed Commodore Taggart offers his assistance since he's technically the ranking officer. The claw is significantly damaged
    • The Pilgrim traitor tells the Admiral he should have sent more ships to deal with the claw. The admiral orderst the traitor to go to the Concom and transmit the jump coordinates to the Kilrathi fleet.
    • Blair is the Diligent's turret gunner during the concom raid, He takes out at least one fighter
    • Maniac prevents a Dralthi from ramming the diligent as it's docking. "That's for you rosie".
    • Blair sits in the turret listening to the comm chatter as the marines storm the Concom.
    • Merlin detects a ULF signal on the Concom. He grabs a helmet and sneaks past Paladin and Gerald
    • Blair walks past dead Kilrathi and Marines... There's a jump scare with a dead Kilrathi.
    • The Concom captain watches monitors as the firefights rage. He activates the scuttle button.
    • Gerald and Paladin notice Blair has left his post, Gerald goes to find Blair on the concom.
    • Blair finds the Kilrathi bridge but is knocked off his feet by a Kilrathi and then lifted into the air. Blair stabs the Kilrathi with his cross. He shoots several Kilrathi on the bridge preventing them from scuttling the ship.
    • Blair discovers the source of the ULF signal. It's encrypted with an executive level code (only Sansky or Gerald have access to the code). The Signal goes UHF turning the Claw into a beacon.
    • Gerald confronts Blair on the Concom bridge, certain that Blair is a Traitor. The Pilgrim traitor shows up and is revealed to be Admiral Wilson. Blair delays by showing the traitor that he's also a Pilgrim.
    • The Traitor wants Blair to prove his loyalty by killing Gerald with his cross. There's a brief knife fight, but once the younger Blair has the upper hand, he uses the opportunity to kill the Pilgrim traitor with his cross.
    • The pilgrim traitor detonates a grenade on the bridge.
    • Blair and Gerald return to the Claw to confront Sansky who has since removed his own life support. Sansky asks Blair to return Tolwyn's ring to him and then dies.
    • There's some very minor differences in the scene where the claw tries to send a message drone. Sansky has locked out the controls.
    • There's extended converstaions with Merlin during the jump to earth.
    • Blair returns the ring to Tolwyn. Tolwyn comments about Sansky and Wilson.


    Uncertain
    • Blair notices Paladin's tattoo as he leaves the Diligent's Bridge
    • Blair asks Paladin about his tattoo (during the scene where Paladin asks to see Blair's cross. Paladin doesn't really answer but deflects and asks about the cross)
    • Merlin appears briefly during the Diligent's encounter with Scylla
    • Blair, Paladin, and Maniac part ways after boarding the claw. Blair asks about the tattoo again, Paladin explains.
    • After Maniac talks to Blair about not wearing his cross (before his patrol with Rosie) Blair asks Merlin about Pilgrims prompting Blair to go talk to Paladin
    • Sansky, Paladin, Gerald, and Angel discuss the Jump the claw is going to take. Gerald isn't happy they are Pilgrim coordinates. When Blair enters, Sansky says he's allowing Blair to be there Blair. Blair examines the coordinates, and Merlin makes a few comments
    • At the start of the jump scene, Polansky is seen leaving the mess hall in his flight suit. There's completed timeslice footage of him getting into his fighter mid jump. Other dialogue would have put Spirit with him or part of another patrol but one of the ships that launch immediately after the claw exits the jump.
    • Sansky uses the intercom to give a speech to the crew about their orders once the Claw enters the Ulysses corridor (includes inserts of the crew listening to the speech)
    • Extended damage sequences on the Claw during ambush, and the damage response crews
    • After destroying the battleship, Paladin's broadsword is damaged in the blast shockwave. He ejects and Blair tractors in his ejection pod (only uncertain because I'm not sure this was cut for budget reasons or other)
    • Extended dialogue when Blair confronts Angel about the never existed stuff. As Blair goes to leave Angel also thanks Blair
    • Extended damage montages and victory scenes during the broadside scene
    • Angel is freezing in her ejection pod. As paladin launches to look for her, she's contemplating activating the pods self destruct presumably to minimize the suffering or being captured by the Kilrathi


    Almost certainly would *not* be in a Special Edition
    • After Blair delivers the disk, Gerald expresses distrust to Sansky. They consult the computer regarding the probability of a successful sneak attack on Pegasus
    • After Angel lectures Blair about what happens when someone dies, Merlin makes a few comments about Angel
    • On the flight deck before the Concom encounter, Blair is assigned a fighter (Chen's) and Blair and angel discuss standard operating procedure
    • Paladin gives some minor exposition about Kilrathi motivations at the start of the scene where Blair asks about why the Pilgrim war started
    • The torpedo room has a hull breach, and Rodriguez is sucked out a broken tube
    • Maniac launches and defends the claw during the broadside section. After seeing Paladin's maneuver he says something like "and they say I'm crazy".
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  16. Shot

    Shot Rear Admiral

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    Forgive the harshness in the video, just an excited guy going off the cuff. I believe I was pretty good with keeping in mind this was a fan creation, yet when it came to the ending for some reason I was sure that was something that could be added on. Of course that would require additional art work that's not there. But that was definitely how I was feeling after I played all those missions only to get the bad ending. In retrospect, it's just like the office scenes, does not really matter, just awesome to see that it could be done. I'm very glad you responded saying that for those interested, you could very well mod the game. I can see it won't exactly be easy, but it's good to see it was a little more than copy and pasting some files, that you see the potential there. I can't state how much I would love to see any kind of fan mods for the original games.

    I had been waiting for something like that for years, it's just too bad it had to be the 1.5 storyline there, I guess. ha. I can't wait to see LOAF or someone go through the real 3DO version and compare it to what I saw with this patch. I guess there's some special cut scenes missing but in terms of hacking into the game without the source code and giving us a new experience with a game we all know and love - Very impressed. Even if it was a simple copy and paste, it's something nobody else thought of until now, and it's impressive.

    Potential modders, I would concur with delMar, let that man know if you'd like to mess with a potential editor and create some new stories. I can say I'll certainly give any I find a try... How often do you get to experience a game you know so well in a new light? I've never messed around with modding stuff myself, there's really only a handful of games I like enough to see what the fans have to offer. I'm always impressed with what people do with Sonic the Hedgehog. They change the look, the colors, even the music! Super Mario 3 has some nice fan mods as well, not too many seem to be able to alter the music, but the level designs, for a guy who always wanted to see a direct sequel to Mario3, some of these mods are fantastic things.

    Not that it's not impressive to see the Tiger's Claw rendered in newer game engines, but to see the Claw we all know and love with some fascinating new storyline, or maybe just some funny story line... That's what I've been wanting for years. I do hope some more people will show interest in an editor being made. There really are Sonic hacks that of course would only appeal to a select few, but for those that play it can trick you into feeling like it's all brand new again. Imagine, a truly intricate branching mission path where there's 3 good endings, a couple endings sort of limbo, and a couple bad endings... Screw the original 40 heart pounding missions, we get another chance to play the missions right, lose some, go on different paths. Or maybe just 12 heart pounding "gotta win em all" missions. Just depends on how much time someone wants to sink into it. I have no doubt though that in the event something special was made with the original game engine, it's something I'm sure most people here could hold just as dear to their heart. Hope that gives a couple people some inspiration.
     
  17. delMar

    delMar Rear Admiral

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    Looks like this happened already: https://www.wcnews.com/news/2015/06/08
    @WingOver fixed the install routine for original DOS.
    Where did you get your version from? We should make sure that all available versions are up-to-date...

    Of course, this still leaves the bad ending in place.
     
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  18. Shot

    Shot Rear Admiral

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    - I believe I would have had the very first version. I downloaded it the very second I read the post and tried it out pretty much right after, doing the video as I went. I just downloaded this new update for the install routine. I did try to point out "I think this is sort of in the beta form, so keep that in mind, as I will." It wasn't even that big a deal for me personally, because I'm enough of a power user to figure out how to do that on my own... And while I understand most people would not be dealing with actual DOS these days, I guess I just so WISH there were a few more of those around, and I was kind of speaking for them. A lot of people in life; If they try something, does not work, they're done with it... I try to figure it out, which I did, but that was such a fantastic "event" in terms of Wing Commander "fandom" that I wished everyone out there who cared was able to play it. I think my overall opinion of the story that I saw from 1.5 is that any real fan of Wing Commander is going to want to play this... Once... At least... It's not good enough of a story to be played with in order with the rest of the series, that's just my opinion of the story... The patch I love, the POSSIBILITIES for the future that this patch gave us, gives me goosebumps as a fan of the series. I don't even care about the bad ending anymore, I mean that was my first reaction and it was honest, but it's also obvious there was not much you could have done with that... I mean seeing the birds would not have made any sense either. I'll be glad to go back to it and give an update should you give your final stamp of approval on it, and I'll certainly note the things that we've just got to accept.

    - By no means take my single opinion and use that as an excuse to pour hours of your life into something when perhaps not too many people appreciate it... But, I really hope you know how much I appreciate your effort. I was wondering why nobody ever tried to hack the original games over 10 years ago! - Obviously I can't do it, but with all the love and talent the fans here have, I never understood how Sonic, a console game, with many fans who probably only use a computer for surfing the web, never understood why that got so many hacks, and good ones, and here everyone is content with the mods that bring Wing Commander into other games, not mod the actual games. I do not demean your efforts, I don't care if it was a copy and paste job, what you did was impressive because at the very least, nobody else here did. I think that's important for people to keep in mind when giving their opinions on "in your spare time hacks" that most people couldn't be bothered to even look into, let alone do. I have in fact actually hacked a game before to give it new content, and I believe I'm the only one to ever hack that game... Probably because I'm the only one that bothered to sniff around... But I look at what I did and have utter humility over it, I don't really think I did anything too special there, this was special, at least in terms of fans. I could never recommend 1.5 for someone that hadn't played all the other games, but I can't fathom why more people here didn't grab that thing the first chance they got. I mean if you've played the 3DO version before then I sort of get it, although it's still pretty cool to play it in DOS for a fan I'd think...

    Do you have any idea how many hits the download got? I'm not sure if it was hosted here or say on Dropbox or something, so perhaps you don't have that information, but I would have thought anyone that saw that post would have downloaded it right away... I really do love the news section of this site, it's great, but that patch was the best news I've seen on this site in years! - I'm just one person, but in the event a few others step up to say thank you for that, please continue and/or see if you can make that editor - In that event I hope you'll combine the few that cared, and because they REALLY cared, I hope that stirs you onward... I'm a very small YouTuber just doing it because I have passion and love, not my day job... I understand how much the smallest of comments can make, as well as the large ones like this... lol... Even doing it for yourself, it still helps to have a few people there who are enjoying it along with you. In reality, I imagine even if they don't thumbs up my video or comment or subscribe, I imagine a lot more people like my stuff than comment, because that's just the way people are. If they hated it, they'd probably say something or thumbs down it, or go to a forum and bitch about it! hahhah... j/k... For everyone that does care enough to say something, you really need to add on at least a few more who just can't be bothered to say it. So again, thank you for this patch...

    ... and for the many other great comments and theories about the movies... I enjoyed reading them, and I'm going to get to them!
     
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  19. delMar

    delMar Rear Admiral

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    On the original thread, it got about 60.
    But that's still the version with the bad installer batch file.
    I don't know how many downloads it got in the CIC's download section.
     

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