Dos Secret Missions 1.5

Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by Baggins, Nov 17, 2016.

  1. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    Was watching this YouTube video showing off the Secret Missions 1.5 mod and couldn't stop noticing the filmmakers passive agressive digs at Wing Commander CIC and Ben Lesnick, and the Wing Commander movie.
     
  2. centaurianmudpig

    centaurianmudpig Captain

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    Interesting how it seems to be a camera recording the TV rather than actual capture.
     
  3. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    Can't say I know the guy. I get lots of salt sometimes because I work on a high profile game; can't take it too seriously. (Though if he's an old fan who I've offended I'm certainly sorry. If there's one thing I've learned as I've gotten older, it's that it's best to be known for what you love and not what you hate.)

    His posters are really cool!
     
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  4. Quarto

    Quarto Unknown Enemy

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    Wise words. And a lesson this guy has yet to learn. But I suppose different rules apply to YouTubers, apparently they're all supposed to be snarky and cynical.
     
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  5. Shot

    Shot Rear Admiral

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    Check out 26:01 from that video, it's explained pretty clearly. Good site overall, but nothing is perfect. See the score by my name? It's not because of what I post, still in the single digits, it's because I've been here forever. Before this place existed I was a part of the newsgroup mailing list where I had a memorable go with Ben on his opinions about the online episodic episodes for Wing Commander Prophecy because he felt it was in essence Wing Commander 6, a full game. That's a strong opinion, when you have strong opinions expect strong reactions. I managed to ask one of the actual designers of the game what he and everyone else felt about that game, he agreed with me, it was looked at like an add-on, an expansion, a "secret missions" pack. His reactions to my perfectly reasonable and understandable thoughts have forever tainted him in my eyes. He likes his opinions to be strong, he does not care for others. And yeah, like 90% of the world I don't care too much for the movie.

    Well, no, actually I have a soft spot for it owning two copies of it, I saw it in the theater and witnessed Star Wars fans walk out. I wanted so much to love it but what I got... I think we're all owed an apology for that film. I can appreciate some people liking it, what is ever so much harder to appreciate is it portrayed as a masterpiece on this site, like it's academy award material, which empirically speaking it is a bad film. It's like loving a band so much that you refuse to acknowledge those one or two terrible songs in their catalog, in fact, you love them. It makes it hard for the majority of people who love the games to lump themselves in with these other people who would love to literally kiss Chris Robert's ass if they met him. There's a lot of great Wing Commander games, there are a couple money tie ins as well, cartoon was pretty damn good, movie was pretty damn bad.

    I mean, how much fairer can you get? I love certain aspects of this site which is why I try to make it here and eat it up at least once a month. But it's not perfect. I can find the all the instructions, the videos, but where's the neatly organized section for contemporary reviews? I can go to the hall of light Amiga site and get reviews from real magazines for every single game listed there. There's a lot of reviews on this site but I have to search the actual news section and go through tons of posts, there's no organization there. I love Wing Commander, I'd like to read what others felt about it back in the day. This place has its own Wiki, which attempts to lump the movies with the games and the books and to me it does not feel like someone trying to be faithful to any sort of timeline, it's someone who just wants to see if he can do it. You're going to take a movie which takes place in both the Wing1 and 2 timeline and attempt to weave them into the game timeline? Where Tolywin commands the "Tiger Claw", not the "Tiger's Claw". Put in this never mentioned religious thing... I go to that Wiki because I'm genuinely interested in sifting through all that material, but I'm there for the games. Make a separate section for the movie, the books, and everything together, but at least have the option of having the games separately because that's what most people are coming here for. I own all of the books, some of them are quite awesome. In fact some events from the books get mentioned in the games, good. When it's in the game, then it happened in the game timeline too! But to act as if those books mean anything, it's delusional. Maniac died in the Wing3 book. Let's not even talk about all the liberties the Wing4 book took. And of course the most shining example is that according to Nintendo the Super Mario movie never happened. There are more than enough examples for my opinion to be a valid opinion.

    Don't agree with me? Talk about it, discuss... God forbid compromise... But I have always felt from being a long time lurker on this forum that certain people deal with differing opinions quite harshly in an elitist manner that I don't happen to enjoy. Something all of you have yet to learn in your forum bubble. I have been a prominent member of several forums over the years, yet here I am, having less than 10 posts here but joining over a decade ago. I'm not here trolling, I'm not here disagreeing with everything said... To me there's no point... I see what's written and I don't feel welcome. You how many YouTube videos this place has spotlighted over the years? Not to sound cocky but that is a quality review for secret missions 1.5, it's extraordinary fair while also being very opinionated.



    I've recently done a review for Wing Commander IV as well which is much the same. It goes somewhere no other review has ever gone before. I show and give heavy opinions on the alternate scenes, the alternate missions, the interactive movie choices. I give a fair review to a game I love and it's not all hearts and roses friends, everything has flaws. It's something that this community should want shared I would think. But to hell with the overall review, I spent a minute or two giving fair critique to a well known site, a site I also recommended everyone go look at. The person who made the patch for secret missions 1.5 seemed to appreciate my review. I made it clear most of my bad opinions came from the actual story which he had nothing to do with, but the patch was amazing and I still hope others will take it upon themselves to make fan patches and make new storylines for these games.

    I'm an opinionated small time YouTuber but I do love Wing Commander, and I'm going to review every last one of them, including the secret missions and Privateer and Academy, you name it. And I love this site, too... Not always the forum area, I'm not the first person to say internet forums can be a little toxic, but this site is an amazing thing and it comes mostly from one man who loved Wing Commander probably more than all of us. But nobody and no place is perfect. If you hate the reviews fine, but if you're stinging because of what I said about this place, I like this place.

    https://amigalove.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=142

    I wish I felt a bit more welcome here because not only do I have a video review of Wing Commander IV I also have an in-depth written review of Wing Commander IV. If I had posted it here I think a lot of people would have appreciated it. Finally, addressing the camera; yes, I record directly off a CRT monitor using real hardware. In that case my DOS machine. I have capture software, I have emulators, I truly feel what you see from my camera is closer to what I see on the original hardware (hence, how it was intended to be seen) than what any emulator or capture card will ever give you. There are downsides like the lines, but the overall experience I feel is true to the real deal. That's what I like, and I make no apologies for it. I could have one million subscribers and I would NEVER change that aspect of recording. I shall always record off the screen. I realize plenty of people would not agree with that, that's fine. But just realize I make no apologies because I like it that way.
     
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  6. Shot

    Shot Rear Admiral

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    Although having just seen Ben's reply I was touched by his kind words on the posters and his remarks on if he ever offended me... Which, I guess he did. But he's also a man that, simply being here on this site has dealt with many many thousands, so I felt humbled to see him respond in that way. Honestly the harsh words on this site are tongue in cheek, I love this place, I loved it before it existed in the way of the newsgroup. I was even in a few of those Wingnut chat rooms forever ago. Still exist? I love this place, and I love Wing Commander and many other games and other systems. I am not some cynical bullshit YouTuber trying to emulate the Nerd, I am small, I'll always be small, I'd never want to make money, because right now every last review I've ever done has been passionate. In my eyes I give something no other YouTuber gives.
     
  7. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff

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    Thanks for coming and explaining your point of view. I'm not going to address all the points you make, but lumping "a minute or two giving fair critique to a well known site" into a review of a fan mod just comes off as someone with an axe to grind. It's really irrelevant to the review. I wish that was the kind of thing we could all just leave behind. Overall, since I started getting involved with WCNews, I'm not going to say I was ever totally happy with some of the ego-clashing that went on throughout the years, but most of that was a long time ago. I'd like to think we've all grown as people in those intervening years. Not everyone has to agree on everything, but I do hope they agree with the overall principles that WCNews runs by, which is predominantly a Wing Commander News site (and social hub) and a site for the preservation of all things Wing Commander (including resources regarding the Movie, and games that might not be the most popular). Overall, I think you would find the tone of much of our more recent conversation a bit more conciliatory especially where narrative conflicts come up.

    We have also recently added a tagging system for searching old news posts, though it does mean someone has to sift through and actually tag 20 years of daily news posts and add the tags. This is a resource issue, not a desire issue.

    Things like our wiki project and other resources would be great to have filled out in more detail and organized better, but those were and are secondary to the main mission of the site. We have a handful of staff members and not all that stuff necessarily gets the attention it deserves. With regards to that, there does have to be some underlying philosophy regarding how to deal with the varied source material. Many people have disagreed over the years with how some of this was handled mainly based on people's personal dislike for certain elements and sources.

    If we were to make another push to update WCPedia, a fair option that could be debated would be to break down characters and events by what events were in which books/games/movies/shows and simply state what that source says about the person instead of injecting any kind of interpretation. It would be a much drier type of encyclopedia, but I'm not sure it would necessarily be more useful to people in the short term. It would definitely be something we'd have to consider if WC ever gets any kind of serious reboot.

    Lastly, I guess you could say I'm passionate about the movie, but not because I'm under any illusion that it's some misunderstood masterpiece. I like it despite it's flaws. In a way, the story of why the movie is the way it is is more interesting than the movie, and it's kind of a sad story about the struggles of a creative vision being stomped on by corporate greed. I'm not saying that to suck up to anyone. Genuine mistakes were made during the production. But it does get irritating to find people less interested in what the actual flaws in the film are, and what are real issues in the narrative as opposed to simply harping on stuff and making up things to complain about just for the laugh factor.
     
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  8. Shot

    Shot Rear Admiral

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    That was a very fair reply. It in fact makes me question my gathered thoughts over the years of lurking. While I disagree with your thoughts of me having an axe to grind, it's not said in any way that gives me any reason to fault your personal opinion on the matter. I mean I could try to convince you of my good intentions, and perhaps I will, in time. Over many years I have utterly ate up the news section of this place, it is in mind the best fan resource for any game ever made.

    I so wish there was something akin to this site for the Might and Magic series, which happens to be in constant struggle as my favorite game series ever. For very different reasons, obviously. In the time spent eating up the news section I have clicked on many forum posts, while I do not feel my gathered opinion on the forum is necessarily untrue, it is obvious from this first hand experience that you are correct, it's not what it once was.

    I remember joining with great hopes I'd join a community of like minded fans of some of my favorite games. If I'm not mistaken I believe I made a post here (or maybe it was the newsgroup) where I tried to say every Wing Commander game was the "best" in some way, in response to a which game is the best debate going on. Ya know, Wing1 was the best at this, Wing2 that, etc. I certainly love these games a great deal. I have great memories of them.

    That's part of my thing on YouTube, not that I'm "a thing" at all, but I'm only there because I looked at the reviews everyone else was making and I felt there was something missing. I'm not saying I'm better than them, but I am saying I"m different. I try to get in as many actual memories as I can, it's not just a "review". It's "Gaming Memories and Review" and part of my gaming memories, like it or not, are of this place. There are some good memories, there are some bad ones. It's very relevant to my style of reviews to get in those personal moments.

    You might not agree with them but it's personal, it's a connection. It's something that is lacking terribly on YouTube. I say what I say and then I show my face when I say it. It's so everyone knows what I say I believe in strongly and I'm not afraid to show myself, like oh so many people. And just like the overall goals and mission of this site is to be a resource for a well loved game, I made it oh so clear in my mind how much I love these games in those reviews. I do feel there are things to point at and discuss, even in a masterpiece like Wing4...

    It's mostly for discussion, thoughts garnered through playing these games well into the hundreds of times over the years. I said in my Wing4 review that I feel these games are so well loved that the ONLY people that should have the balls to critique them are the people that love them. I can't even watch a review from someone who has no experience with the games or never cared for them. I wanted to punch the British magazine reviewers that attempted to destroy these games over the years for very poor reasons. But I love these games, I'd like to talk about them, and I love YouTube. It is not and has never been an entertainment site to me, it is the best social networking site that ever existed. It's really too bad Google does not realize this. But for me, it's all one big discussion.

    I always love any back and forth but sometimes they get carried over into forums and nobody bothers to tell the person that made the video about it. How many more terrible things might have been said about me here had I not wondered across this? Imagine making a video and pouring your heart into it and then coming here to see you're being called snarkey and cynical.... You could not have watched the whole review or barely any of it if that's your opinion on me.

    I was begging people to pick up with this mod and make their own stories because I'm tired of seeing Freespace mods, it would be so cool to see mods for the real game and have them work on the original operating systems. I'm filled with enthusiasm for a series that has not seen a true game since 1997. But oh my what a place this has been.

    Despite having no new games to support this place it was created and has existed since. You proved people still love space sims by helping to fund and spread the word on the most successful kickstarter in history. I've got plenty of good things to say about this place...it's just, when you eat up that much information there is bound to be some disagreements. This entire time I would have loved to have been here and discussed these things, but over 10 years ago I just shook my head and I'm pretty sure I didn't sign in again until last year. But so far from the response from Ben and then this last post I am genuinely surprised, I was expecting an all out attack on me and I came ready to fight.

    But now I kind of want to be friends. I agree about the movie being ever so much more fascinating when it comes to the drama behind it. Having read so many articles on it here it's a wonderful story, it may deserve its own documentary exposing all of that. But I do have genuine complaints about the film, and again, I've got 2 copies of it, I hate it but it is a guilty pleasure. I really don't feel I'm anything like a traditional reviewer attempting todeliberately pisss off as many people as possible for attention. I don't script one damn word, it's all straight from the heart. If a game is worth reviewing it's worth remembering, and I remember a whole hell of a lot. Thanks for the response.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  9. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    99% of the Secret Missions 1.5 is just the same text from Secret Missions 2, slapped together in a different order and new location names, with all references to Firekkans stripped out. I don't know which "Origin" team members made it... but its no worse than the text in Secret Missions 2 already 'is'... Personally I've never considered Wing Commander 1 to have a 'strong' narrative.

    It improved much in Wing Commander 2 and later.

    Also comparing Secret Missions mod to the actual Super Wing Commander is somewhat unfair, since the mod lacks some of the cutscenes that Super Wing Commander had, this includes a scene showing Hobbes coming on board (which Secret Missions 2 never had).

    Also the mission scripting, and difficulty 'balance' is a bit different in the actual Super Wing Commander than in the mod. Its not a perfect conversion, since the original game's engine is a tad more limited in scope.

    Although I agree, the 'actors' don't do the game much justice... The ones who did the voice work on Sega CD version were a bit better. I've always wished someone could mod WC1 to insert those voice overs into the PC version of the game.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  10. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    As for the movie and its inclusions...

    It was included in Wing Commander Arena apparently.

    It certainly has quite a few references and inclusions in Star*Soldier and its related timeline... for better or for 'worse'.

    Nothing to try to 'fix' some of the major discrepancies between the film and the games though.

    But then again, if you look really closely not even the games were always necessarily 'consistent' with each other. There are lines that suggest Iceman, Hunter, etc, died with the Claw in Wing Commander 2 for example, and I think some of the manuals/internal series Bible. But Iceman was retconned to have died much later according to Prophecy.


    Another thing I noticed about the various original teams series bibles, and development production stuff is the amount of care to reference and utilize the licensed novel material as well.

    Maybe not a lot of the animated series stuff, but that came later between WC4 and Prophecy. There isn't really a bible for that era in relation to the games (at least one that we have publically?) except for the TV show bible itself (in its earliest prototype form).

    Of all the things, that series gives me a headache... Since either as a sequel to Wing Commander Game and was originally going to be a retelling of Secret Missions 2, and a prequel to WC2-3, or in its current existence as semi-prequel to WC1-2... it doesn't quite fit with the concepts of the games or even the movie. That Marshall and Blair were already graduated as per most sources (including Kilrathi Saga, Movie, etc). Why did they rejoin academy?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  11. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    Might not be entirely easy. While some of the people on this site have been given 'source code' to save and protect for posterity. It isn't public source yet, and their are still questions of legality of utilizing it for modifications? It might require some proper mods using source code to give us more control in mission packs and cut scenes? This goes back to my dream someday seeing a version of the PC version of the game which has full CD voice pack taken from the Sega version of the game. But that would require using the source code.

    The 1.5 conversion was probably not done with the source code? It was probably an extreme hack utilizing same engine material, and the fact that SM1.5 and SM2 have a lot of things in common mission wise? Some more history would be interesting to know though.
     
  12. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    That's kind of you to say! To quote Admiral Bergstrom, "we were young, then..." I hope I've mellowed out quite a bit over the years while still keeping my passion for everything Wing Commander (that's the hat trick, isn't it!) You grow up, you start thinking about other people and their different experiences... it's a good thing.

    What I've always barked at, I'd say, is negativity. I reacted when folks would throw down some favorite of mine, thinking I needed to defend it for the world to see... which, in retrospect, is pretty stupid! Let people dislike things. What I didn't understand was the idea that there MUST be different points of view, that not everyone needs to play the same game I'm playing and that not everyone needs to think the same things I do.

    I still love the insane details and I love arguing about them. I think it's a tremendously fun thing to take all the disparate parts and try to put them together... but it's also tremendously fun to take them apart again, or to call out why they really don't go together. And then it's even more fun to figure out why all those parts work the way they do, and why they were created that way in the first place. I love applying thought to Wing Commander, whether that's working out a timeline from obscure references or it's figuring out why Chris made X, Y or Z decision when he was shooting the movie.

    (I do agree with AD 100% with regards to the movie and the other odds and ends of the Wing Commander world. I don't think Wing Commander is the greatest movie ever made, I think it's a really interesting pile of history and parts. The spinoffs are often most valuable for their raw materials, the little bits of lore and the new thoughts they add to the discussion.)

    Anyway, what's more important than our differences of opinion should be what brings us together: a love for Wing Commander. Let's use that love to have great discussions, to learn more and to create great things together. I can tell right off you're a man after my own heart (I build retro machines now too!) and I'd be better off counting you as a Wing Commander friend than an internet enemy. :)

    (If I could give you some advice which I think you already know: stay small. As unlikely as it sounds I've been lucky enough to make space combat game community work my life these past few years, but at the end of the day I always come back to Wing Commander and this community. It's my home, and the freedom I have to create content that matters to me and no one else is a genuine treasure. Keep doing stuff you like and never care what anyone else thinks.)
     
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  13. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    And now a second reply for Baggins, who has many interesting things to talk about!

    You are exactly right; I think the 'legend' of these missions loomed a bit too large for too many years... they were always that thing we didn't have (you know, the toy you always wanted for Christmas but never got, so you built it up in your mind*.) They're utterly fascinating, but they aren't the entire, distinct mission disk many fans had imagined so much as an odd rework.

    As for who created Super Wing Commander, you are correct that it was not who we think of as 'the' Wing Commander team (Maverick)... it was an offshoot of the reliable console product group. These were the guys who didn't get the big budgets or the magazine covers... but they slaved away doing Super Famicom ports and titles like Metal Morph which brought in reliable money for the company with little risk.

    How did it happen? The answer is as simple as this: 3DO, the company behind the 3DO Interactive Multiplayer tech, was founded by one Mr. Trip Hawkins... who not-so-coincidentially also founded a company called... Electronic Arts (aka Origin's publisher.) That connection is why there's a surprisingly robust set of launch titles from EA for the 3DO consoles... and of course they recruited (and built up) a team at Origin specifically to build a Wing Commander game for the new system. They took a console team, built it up with new folks and launched SWC.

    That team (in so much as one team actually stays consistent between projects in game dev) went on to develop a project called Prowler (a mech game), initially for the 3DO and later for the Playstation. Prowler was cancelled and they moved on to doing the Playstation port of Wing Commander IV (WC3 wasn't in-house)... and after that project ended they were chaged with the Playstation port of Wing Commander V. Around this time, Chris left the company and took some of the most experienced people from Maverick with him to start Digital Anvil... and one reorganization later, many of the people originally taksed with the Playstation port were developing Wing Commander Prophecy!

    That was me, working on Arena. :) I feel like the movie adds more than it subtracts, in the final analysis. It's *interesting* to me hearing about previous wars and space religions and ships we didn't see in the game... all the nagging continuity errors just seem like the price you pay to expand things.

    This, on the other hand, is David Ladyman. He was charged with maintaining a cohesive continuity as best he could, and as far as such things go he did a pretty darned good job. Continuity errors seem giant to us, for sure, but compared to pretty much any other IP it's really, really clear they were trying.

    It's also an impossible task. There WILL be errors, no matter how hard you look for them. Star Wars has a team with a seven figure budget these days... and they put out two absolutely conflicting stories about how Wedge defected from the Empire last month! (Heck, David shared his notes on False Colors with me recently after finding a printed copy... and he nails every. single. issue. anyone has ever had. Only problem is the editor at Baen didn't make most of the changes. And that's an extreme example, most of the time errors get accepted because they'd break narratives or confuse new players or any number of entirely logical reasons not to care whether or not Blair mentioned not meeting aliens before he'd even ever been given a name.)


    Origin comissioned a series bible alongside Wing Commander 2 in 1991-92, which was later significantly expanded into what we have for download here (that's the "WC3" version.) You can sort of tell just looking at the fonts and the content what the smaller licensor document was like.

    I can answer that one, and it was intended! Basically: no one wanted to make 'Wing Commander kids'... except the suits at Universal. The creative side wanted to make a sci-fi war show... and they were facing down executive notes that were all along the lines of 'the kids should deal with everyday problems!' So the trick they came up with was that the show would be called Wing Commander Academy and the pilot would be set at ... and then when they went into production they would do their best never to mention any of that again. Which you can see pretty much happens; the pilot is an excuse to put them in the battle and anything else is just lip service from Episode 2 on.

    The in-lore explanation was that it's not the Terran Confederation Space Naval Academy... it's the 'Wing Commander Academy,' a special command school they're attending after finishing flight school. (Check out the glossary with the press stuff; 'Wing Commander Academy' is supposed to be a proper noun inside the Wing Commander universe!)




    * - mine was the LEGO monorail.
     
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  14. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff

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    Of anyone, I've probably spent a lot more time thinking about why the movie is the way it is, and trying to get to the root of the issues with it. There's dialogue that still makes me cringe to this day, but the movie came at the right time for me I guess and I have a certain affection for it (or some would call it an obsession I suppose). However I do genuinely feel like the movie Chris Roberts set out to make was a much more interesting one, and even the one he shot was a much better movie that what the end result ended up being. I made a post recently over on the RSI site where this same subject came up so I'm going to steal from myself here and repurpose some of the same stuff I wrote there (with some additions).

    One of the conclusions which I've spoken at length to LOAF about regarding the movie and why it had such a negative reaction with fans (minor continuity quibbles aside) was in fact the Pilgrim story, but not for the reason most people assume (reviewers who were unfamiliar with WC had their own issues with the movie but typically not the Pilgrims). The major problem with the movie for fans of the games isn't necessarily what the pilgrims are, but rather that the movie really isn't about the Kilrathi. There's Kilrathi in it, and their invasion is the thing everyone is trying to stop, but other than that, nothing else is about them.

    The major plot, which was neutered in the editing room is about Pilgrims and more specifically about Blair's coming to terms with the implications of his heritage and what it means regarding his duty to Confed. He repeatedly talks about being only half Pilgrim as if the two sides are warring with eachother. The big deal with Pilgrims wasn't supposed to be their space magic. By the time of the movie the Pilgrims that didn't assimilate are a band of imbeded terrorist insurgents. The big deal is supposed to be whether Blair accepting the fact that he's part Pilgrim mean that he has to accept the radical ideology that people associate with it. It's a 'destiny vs self determination' question. He needs to come to the conclusion that the Pilgrim part of him doesn't change who he really is. Paladin is important to this plot because it's a decision he had already made long ago himself.

    So now, think about the theatrical cut for a moment: In the version we got, you have a movie not about Kilrathi, with a large emphasis on Blair being a Pilgrim, but it has no purpose. Everything in the first half of the movie more or less is designed to make Blair feel like an outsider. He's more or less rejected by his new 'family' that all view him as a traitor, or at least a liability. The Kilrathi subplot that gains a bit of prominence is too shallow to really carry a movie, but the scenes which would have provide the payoff for the racism Blair experiences are gone.

    There's three pivotal scenes near the end of the film, that would have hammered the main themes home, but only one out of the three made it into the movie, and that's the scene where Paladin gives Blair his own cross. Basically Blair isn't confident making the jump to Earth because he's just turned his back on the Pilgrims (by killing the traitor with his own Pilgrim Cross no less). Losing the preceding knife fights and Sansky's death scene, shifts the focus away from Blair thinking he can't do the jump because he's rejected the Pilgrim ideology, to "believe in the force".

    On the jump back to Earth space, Blair is seen clutching his cross. He now free to be both Pilgrim and a Confed soldier. In the theatrical cut, it feels tacked on, but as shot, this is the main point of the movie, that we can grow past old hate and can be better people for it. We don't have to be anchored in the sins of the past. It's actually a much more timely idea now than even when the movie was filmed.

    Wing Commander arguably didn't need this type of story for Blair but losing the whole reason Pilgrims are a thing in the movie probably was worse for the movie as a whole and people's acceptance of the Pilgrim concept than having bad Kilrathi effects as it essentially rips out the movie's heart. There isn't really that much Kilrathi footage removed from the film. There's a handful of really short scenes where the movie cuts to the traitor onboard the Kilrathi Admiral's flagship that didn't make it in. By and large the majority of the missing footage revolves around the Pilgrim traitor plots.

    It's true the Pilgrims are never mentioned in the games previously, it's an area of Blair's life that's simply not explored in the games. So you have a useless "subplot" about racism that goes nowhere in a movie that for many people just doesn't work... Honestly you can't blame people for hating the pilgrim stuff.
    Now, even with a more complete cut of the film, there are still some issues for sure for a variety of reasons, but many of the nagging issues are at least somewhat easier to overlook.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
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  15. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    I prefer the Peter Telep novels over he movie itself but the movie is still fun. I like the work Loaf did with Star*Soldier that is great peace of original canon for the series, Witt all its nods to everything.

    It even managed to make a few nods to Super Wing Commander and 1.5 for the fun of it.
     
  16. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff

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    The movie novelization is fairly faithful to the script. If it was in the script, it's in his book, so it does at the very least give a good idea of what the deleted subplots are a like. Telep doesn't really deviate from it at all other than to fill out scenes. The other thing Telep did was (since he didn't have access to the movie art) is that he made some assumption and choices based of the way things were in the games when describing things. So the advantage to reading the novel (or the script too I suppose) is that you can imagine in your head that the effects are perfect and that the Kilrathi have fur.
     
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  17. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    Oh but he does describe the 'hairlessness' in the novels... Especially when you get to the "Emperor" in Pilgrim Truth (who seems to be physically all there as far as his limbs and eyes go except for the incurable Kilrathi 'mange' (Star*Soldier reference))...

    Interesting thing about that Emperor, is that after what the Pilgrims did to him, it leaves us with the knowledge that he probably had to commit ritual suicide in the end for being disgraced so badly, or be stuck in endless blood duels to regain his support.
     
  18. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation!

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    For the second and third novels, Peter would've seen the actual movie. (Unfortunately, some of the most nagging errors in the movie novel come from that disconnect... references to the F-44 Rapier and the WC2 Concordia in the initial book and so on.)
     
  19. Baggins

    Baggins Petty Officer

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    Oh I like his references that tie the books closer to the games in the first book.

    I like how he explains those things though in the second book. With the 'upgrades' and such. It might not "perfectly" 'fit/fix' things 100% but it does make things more flavorful and realistic/interesting.

    Paraphrase:

    There a few note-able differences between the newer CF-117b and the older F44-A Rapier. The newer model had increased missile capacity to ten guided or dumbfire missiles and packed a second generation nose-mounted rotary-barrel neutron gun that allowed for longer continuous neutron fire than the old F44’s first generation cannon. A switch on his stick allowed for alternate or synchronous fire, and standard laser cannons mounted to the 117’s short, upturned wings provided longer-range support. The standard Tempest targeting and navigational AI remained the same, as did the jump-capable drive array and twin thruster afterburner, as did the jump-capable drive array and twin thruster afterburnerpackage. Monitors and control panels seemed slightly smaller, but that could be an illusion. The seat felt a hell of a lot better though, with the welcome addition of lumbar support.

    Plus it gave the impression that it was the early Rapier F-44A, while what we see later in the games is the F-44A Rapier II model, which I think gave some 'evolution' between the novels and the games. Pilgrim Truth sort of put the CF-117b as intermediate design between Rapier (I) and the Rapier II.
     
  20. Shot

    Shot Rear Admiral

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    Wow, everyone. Again I'm taken aback at how in depth everyone is getting here. I mean it's not the first time I've seen it here, but in the past I've also looked in and thought "oh wow, how did this war get started over that harmless post? haha. To me, back then, I would have thought because everyone was here under the guides of loving Wing Commander, that it would have been harder to get upset about people who are just sort of over analyzing their mutual love for something. As many faults as I see in the movie I have to say if I ever heard anyone talk ill of it who was "not" a fan of the series, I'd probably go to town on them. I wouldn't lie and say I love it, but I would be far more forgiving of it while pointing them at the excellent games. To me it's always been astonishing there are not more Star Wars fans who absolutely adore Wing Commander. Not that Mark Hamill didn't make quite a nice career for himself despite getting a bit type cast, but how can you love him in Star Wars and be so invested in that character and just not give two craps about those computer games in the 90's that he stared in, the closest you're going to get to seeing him kick ass in space again (well, at the moment anyway).

    Personally I've always kind of been more of a Star Trek guy, original series and movies. I just love how intelligent they all are. While I kind of remember seeing the Empire Strikes Back before Wing3, I actually didn't really "care" until playing Wing3 and seeing him, then researching him. Oh, that's HIM in Star Wars? Cool. I'm sure I got more enjoyment out of Star Wars by already knowing Hamill as Blair than I would have otherwise. It's amazing how much a game can touch your life forever. I'm sure we all remember the first time we looked up who Rachel was, and even Flint had a couple eye raising scenes in the past. I already liked Tom Wilson from Back to the Future but it's just amazing at how much of the cast I've looked up over the years and ended up enjoying their other work. I didn't know Jason Barnard had died when Prophecy came out and I remember being a little pissed that he didn't make it in. Then one day I saw the post this site made about his wife and how she gets all these great letters from fans of Wing Commander. I remember Hamill being on Howard Stern and Stern taking him to town on being stuck in the past with the conventions and stuff... Then he's like "look, I don't need Star Wars! I'm set for life because of Wing Commander!" - and reading about how Lucas screwed the cast out of all that money... raaar! But hey, smart man learning from his past mistakes and gambling on a computer game.

    I remember when Ginger Lynn answered all those questions for everyone... I gotta imagine that for her, well, I'm sure she had no shortage of fan mail at the time and to this day... But I bet it means a lot to her to have this group of nerds care about her on a bit of deeper level because of what she gave in Wing Commander. I've heard Malcolm Mcdowell say great things about his experience. You know, in retrospect having seen all these behind the scenes videos of them at the time; Chris Roberts really must have been the world's greatest salesman EVER! I mean not all of them were at the height of their game, but so many were recognizable, what was his pitch to them all? I have a guilt pleasure for interactive movies like Night Trap and the like, but of course it's because they're so bad they're good. All of these actors were so convinced that interactive movies were the future. They don't seem to be bull.... about it either, it really feels like Robert's was able to convince them fully. Of course that was not to come true, but they still bet on the right game!

    Until this site came along I thought I was the only one that sort of cared about these B list actors. When the movie came out I was fully expecting those names to be in it. At the time I didn't really have anything against Freddie Prince Jr or Lillard... They were okay, I didn't consider them "stars" by any means... I feel it was such a missed opportunity to have so many new fans of Wing Commander come to the party if it had been Hamill in the movie, which so many Star Wars fans went to "see" because of the preview... I will say this for the Wing Commander movie... It is less of a betrayal to Wing Commander than the prequels to Star Wars were.

    You're right, there was such a drama in getting that movie made, I've always ate up anything regarding that behind the scenes info this site puts up. But you look at everything working against Robert's at the time, and how much free rein Lucas had to do whatever the hell he wanted with those prequels... The bigger apology deserves to come from him in my eyes. But in a way, I kind of felt betrayed by Robert's when I read, long before the movie came out, that he was quitting to be a film director. I understand that must have been the dream, but after all the energy he must have conjured up to convince these not terrible actors to join his video game, it's just too bad it took him so long to discover he was living the dream all along. Maybe he felt the story was done, but I can't believe the games would have been left abandoned for this long had Robert's remained in that industry. With the success of Wing3 and 4 who knows who they might have gotten to come aboard before the death of the interactive movie. To tell the truth I wish the new game was being filmed, if a story you want, there's nothing like seeing the real faces to bring you in. It's too bad it went out with such a whimper, interactive movies.

    Despite Wing4 being filmed it didn't exactly get the best transfer to video. Even the DVD version does not exactly look "right", probably the jump from 24 frames per second to 30. In my Wing4 video I did also take a couple pot shots over here again, in the forum of actual Wing4 film masters. You guys have gotten a hold of such wonderful stuff over the years, to me the holy grail would be the original 35mm film masters. I remember the X-Files video game coming out, a very late interactive movie, came out in like 1999 I think. It was digital, not film, but just on the regular CD-ROM it looked so incredible at the time, better than television anyway. Of course it came on 7 CDs and each one was done before you knew it... But imagine how fantastic Wing4 "could" have looked. It's hard for me to forgive them for taking out the remove interlace feature for DOS, which Wing3 had. I truly believe they did that just to add to the list of "features" for the Win95 patch. Ugh... I imagine the filmed portion of Wing4 was simply the original acting and the bare sets. I doubt they edited CG onto the actual film itself, so I mean, we'd of course be missing out on a lot... But what a piece of history it would be, to restore the 35mm print, it would look amazing!

    Let me apologize for any harsh words pointed this way or at Ben in the videos. Having not felt welcome all those years ago, yet still loving the site for information, it was easy to find things to point at and criticize. While I contend I just sort of like to poke, I didn't personally feel welcomed, so let's make sure they don't feel welcome here either. I was always pretty sure at some point, lovers of Wing Commander that you are, my very small channel would end up getting noticed. I sort of didn't want that, in a way. Say I hadn't said anything bad, everyone loved my review, and then I got a whole bunch of subs from here... Now I'm a little bit bigger but how many of these people are going to have any interest in all the other games I cover? I sort of purposely was changing up my videos to do my best to make sure people wouldn't subscribe UNLESS they really wanted to be along for the ride. In time I'll review all the Wing Commander's, and I truly feel my take on them will be unlike any current videos or written reviews. But I'm also in no rush, I'm just doing what I want to do. I had a whole load of people (for me) watch and sub to me based on a review I made for the Amiga game Defender of the Crown. The actual head artist for the game, Sim Sachs, commented on my video and loved it! Highlight of my Youtube life. I probably should have followed that video up with another Amiga game or something I felt all these new people might like... Instead I uploaded a Super8 film! Oh no, this is a "retro" channel, I do many things, get out if you don't like it! In a way I jabbed just to keep you away.

    While I ultimately feel both those Wing Commander videos and my written review for Wing4 are super unique and good, and I spent such little time in the grand scheme talking about this site... Ya know, it's all about personal connection with me, the memories along with the review. I'm not a monotone guy scripting these short reviews where they don't even finish the game... If that's what people call reviews, I want no part in it. But I do remember a day when reviewers were allowed to be very opinionated, a day when they were expected to win the games they reviewed or say why they could not. Since people started making money on YouTube the quest to turn the video making process into a sausage factory has so made me feel left out from how the site originally started. While I know most people who love forums rarely venture or have much respect for YouTube, to me it's an incredible place. If you're willing to search and find those small chancels, you come across some of the most genuine and thought provoking opinions.

    But you know what? Looks like you get that here, too. I still think those videos are worth watching, but I am sorry for any shots taken here, it is obviously a much different place with some great people who love to talk about the details. Back to some of the discussion; I'd really love to see all of what Super Wing Commander has to offer, but the last time I checked there was nothing but a few short mystery science theater 3000 type videos on it. I've never been able to see a full playthough and I can't say that particular port ever made me want to emulate the 3DO or Mac to play it myself. I couldn't tell you how much better the actual Super Wing Commander is compared to this DOS patch, but I tried to say in the video "if" this was the dialogue given, "if" it is accurate to the real game... eeeek.... To me the dialogue was not up to part with any of the previous Wing Commander, including Secret Missions 2. The whole mentioning of Stealth Fighters thing, this base is "developing and refining stealth fighter technology".... I gasped when I read that... It broke my heart to see this official piece of Wing Commander destroy the entire foundation that Wing2 was built upon... You are disgraced, sent away to the corner of the galaxy, never to fly a fighter again... Because Tolywin KNOWS the destruction of the Tiger's Claw was OUR fault. "Your ridiculous claims about a Kilrathi cloaking device!" - I might not love the movie, but I'm able to keep it separate from my opinions of the games. There are books I like, there are books I don't like so much... But like them or not I'm able to keep the books separate from the games. It broke my heart to see Super Wing Commander admit to stealth fighters, most likely to further promote Wing2, but they broke my heart in the process... Oh so many years later I can say I would have died a tiny bit happier if I had never read those words.

    All right, this has already gotten too long for one post... I'm sure you're all readers but bless you for making it this far if you have. Thanks to Ben again for his nice response to the matter, I'm glad a war was not started by anyone here or myself. I've seen it before from other forums, and without even saying anything about them. Just because I have an opinion, a factually based opinion that they refused to consider in that instance, this entire board was going after me... NONE of them said a word about it on my actual video... To me, Reddit makes no sense... You link other people's stuff, but you comment on Reddit, they might love it, they might hate it, but it's all in this little bubble and the guy making the video has no idea. Like me or hate me I really wish this thread would have been brought to my attention via the actual video. For someone so small, any sort of feedback means the world. I don't "want" to make money, no ads on my videos... I don't want to become what I hate from others. But it's not a television show to me, it's a personal journey as I collect my thoughts and opinions regarding a very long history of loving video games... Well, all things retro really. I don't need my ass to be kissed, but it sucks I had to find out about this out of total shock because I was interested in this post titled "DOS Secret Missions 1.5" - I'll have me some of that! .... oh.... it's about me...

    But then again, hey, I'm here now! A place I sort of always wanted to be. I hope I can occasionally bring some interesting conversation to the forum. Have to start signing in automatically now.
     

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