Concordia's Captain

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Who's Jacorski, and who the hell is the Concordia's Captain? Even a guess would be nice.

Jacorski was someone who might be the Armada 'guy' -- he's mentioned in the conversation between the two pilots later in Voices of War.

Admiral Tolwyn was the captain of the WC2 Concordia (according to Fleet Action).

last time i checked Blair was just wounded, and I remember seeing someplace that he didn't fly during the battle for earth because he was wounded just before truce and was off the flight line (though pilots consider that being crippled) during the battle for earth. I can't remember where I saw that, though.

That's pretty close -- according to the WC3 novel, he was wounded *at* the Battle of Earth and wasn't around for a few months afterwards. He'd been Wing Commander of the Concordia at the time.

i still think it's pretty unlikely someone served on the Tiger's Claw and was a close personal friend of K'Kai. Okay I understand how it can be explained that the Tiger's Claw hung around in Firekka for a little while, plus if K'Kai is making stops everywhere she's likely to have more than just Hunter as a friend, so oh flip I dunno. I reckon the author intended it to be Hunter, but K'Tithrak Mang was kind of an all hands lost operation, Shotglass included, so I reckon the author is wayyy off the mark.

Based on everything else about the guy in the manual, it was written as though the guy was Blair (being at K'Tithrak Mang, fighting with Tolwyn, etc.). (Same thing applies to Colonel Lombard in the Academy manual...).
 
I'd place novel fiction above armada random writer who thought the Claw even survived K'Tithrak Mang fiction.

I'm not sure to what you're refering... The writer(s) of Voices of War never stated that the Claw survived K'Tithrak Mang....

and how nearly totally ignored Armada is.

..... Armada is the greatest of all time.

Based on everything else about the guy in the manual, it was written as though the guy was Blair

My thoughts exactly.
 

Dougie

Spaceman
The very original quote says "There's the brass wing
Shotglass gave me after K'Tithrak Mang"

Shotglass was very much dead after K'Tithrak Mang, as far as I could tell, since he was the Claw's bartender, and the Claw was very much dead after K'Tithrak Mang
 
The very original quote says "There's the brass wing Shotglass gave me after K'Tithrak Mang" Shotglass was very much dead after K'Tithrak Mang, as far as I could tell, since he was the Claw's bartender, and the Claw was very much dead after K'Tithrak Mang

You know, it IS possible for people to survive the destruction of a ship... and to me, that qoute alone proves Shotglass DID in fact live past the incident at K'Tithrak Mang
 

Aries

Vice Admiral
Dude, where does it say anywhere that Shotglass was in fact *on* the Tiger's Claw at K'Tithrak Mang. Hunter got off just before it so why couldn't Shotglass. Even bartenders need a little R'N'R.
 

TC

SubCrid
Originally posted by Dougie
I'd place novel fiction above armada random writer who thought the Claw even survived K'Tithrak Mang fiction. But that's just me.

Wow... Somehow that 'point' didn't register until someone quoted it... Even if your initial point about there being some sort of unsolvable error were correct Tuesday Frase was involved in a rather large number of Wing Commander projects, certainly more than Forstchen was...
 

Dougie

Spaceman
So to answer Corsair:

You think

and to me, that qoute alone proves Shotglass DID in fact live past the incident at K'Tithrak Mang

yet at the same time

Based on everything else about the guy in the manual, it was written as though the guy was Blair

"my thoughts exactly"

you believe the manual indicates it to be Blair.

However, it is clear that Blair was not on board the Lexington for Armada, or the eight months following the Battle of Earth, since he did not fly between the battle of earth and the reassignment to the victory in WC3.

So you can't have it both ways. You trust a piece of fiction to show that Shotglass survived the Claw's destruction which also makes out Blair to be on board the Lexington.

Pick one.

In answer to TC:

Wow... Somehow that 'point' didn't register until someone quoted it... Even if your initial point about there being some sort of unsolvable error were correct Tuesday Frase was involved in a rather large number of Wing Commander projects, certainly more than Forstchen was...

I have to choose which I acknowledge. The manuals, which contradict each other in terms of, say, Maniac's birthplace and age, showing them to be unreliable, or Fortschen's books, which have the odd error in them but have helped paint a much more complete picture of the WC world. I just choose to follow Bill over Robinson Crusoe's mate. Sorry if I offended you.
 

TC

SubCrid
Originally posted by Dougie

you believe the manual indicates it to be Blair.

Wow, how do you get that? LOAF told you who the character that's writing it likely is, and that person isn't Blair. The character was written to have a history like that of Blair. It's like a spin-off character they created so it would seem similar to the one you'd been playing all along... however, it can't be the same character because he ends up dying.

However, it is clear that Blair was not on board the Lexington for Armada, or the eight months following the Battle of Earth, since he did not fly between the battle of earth and the reassignment to the victory in WC3.

So you can't have it both ways. You trust a piece of fiction to show that Shotglass survived the Claw's destruction which also makes out Blair to be on board the Lexington.

It doesn't say it's Blair though :)


I have to choose which I acknowledge. The manuals, which contradict each other in terms of, say, Maniac's birthplace and age, showing them to be unreliable, or Fortschen's books, which have the odd error in them but have helped paint a much more complete picture of the WC world. I just choose to follow Bill over Robinson Crusoe's mate. Sorry if I offended you.

Why would you offend me? The fact that you're wrong isn't offensive :) The odd error in the manuals is generally able to be passed off as an in-universe error (as most are actual pieces of text written by a character), however, Maniac's home isn't really that kind of error...
 
Pick one.

No no, you're completely misunderstanding. I don't believe that it WAS Blair in Voices of War, I believe that it was written, at the time, with the intent of the character being Blair. It obvisiously is not. I have made absolutely no contradiction.

And there are many strange inconsistancies in the books as well... more so than the manuals.
 

Dougie

Spaceman
Yeah but I love the books. I think they paint the most complete picture.

So Blair survived the Claw's destruction, Maniac survived the Claw's destruction, Angel survived it, Spirit survived it, Jazz survived it, Doomsday survived it, Bossman was already dead, Iceman (if we are to believe Hawk in Prophecy) was already dead, Hawk (since he served on the Claw) survived it, Shotglass (apparently, even though he was the full time bartended) survived it....

So really only Knight and Colonel Halcyon died with the Tiger's Claw. No wonder it got ambushed and destroyed, no one was on the flipping ship!

I'm not knocking the manuals either. Everything has mistakes.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Originally posted by Dougie
So really only Knight and Colonel Halcyon died with the Tiger's Claw. No wonder it got ambushed and destroyed, no one was on the flipping ship!
Sure, if you ignore the hundreds of other crewmembers and pilots onboard.

And Shotglass was just as entitled to shore leave as anybody else - why is the idea of him being given a vacation after the most tense two years in the carrier's history seem so strange to you?
 

t.c.cgi

Vice Admiral
Well, let me remind you Jazz and Doomsday WEREN'T Tiger's Claw pilots. They belonged to the Austin (was that it?). They wouldn't have been on the Claw for much longer after the fighting at Firekka. Why in the heck would Jazz betray the crew if that was his base of operations? Even traitors aren't THAT stupid.

And yes, bartenders need leave too. If I had to listen to a half thousand or more people whine about how shipboard life is bad, or how they're gonna get it the next day, I'd be very upset if I didn't get a break!
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Well, let me remind you Jazz and Doomsday WEREN'T Tiger's Claw pilots. They belonged to the Austin (was that it?). They wouldn't have been on the Claw for much longer after the fighting at Firekka. Why in the heck would Jazz betray the crew if that was his base of operations? Even traitors aren't THAT stupid.

Yup, they'd actually returned to the Austin during SM2.

So Blair survived the Claw's destruction, Maniac survived the Claw's destruction, Angel survived it, Spirit survived it, Jazz survived it, Doomsday survived it, Bossman was already dead, Iceman (if we are to believe Hawk in Prophecy) was already dead, Hawk (since he served on the Claw) survived it, Shotglass (apparently, even though he was the full time bartended) survived it....

Hawk's service on the 'Claw was as a comm tech earlier on... he was off at flight school when the ship was destroyed.

Iceman *did* survive -- timelinewise he was killed several months later (he also shows up afterwards in the WC1/2 Guide). Presumably most of the ships pilots survived... since they had so many people flying patrols that they had to have single-fighter elements.
 

Dougie

Spaceman
So the Claw got destroyed, I presume, because stealths got behind the patrols and ambushed the carrier, which presumably had patrols eveywhere, and presumably Blair got the blame because they appeared to come from an area of space he should've been guarding.

I'm just curious how the fighters were recovered after the carrier was destroyed. I mean, the Claw tended to fly as one ship fleet, like the Concordia, so who would have recovered the non jump capable fighter craft deep in enemy territory and surely not outfitted for days of wasting fuel and oxygen. i'd have thought the fighters would be pretty boned?

Hawk's service on the 'Claw was as a comm tech earlier on... he was off at flight school when the ship was destroyed.

But doesn't he tell Casey about the time when Iceman took him on his wing when he'd lost a wingman and was a basket case? Presumably it happened before Blair was disgraced, because doesn't he tell Casey how Blair and he found his father's body? I might be wrong about that. But Iceman definitely flew with Hawk, unless he's a liar.
 
but wasn't Jazz and Knight related and he felt that Blair let his brother die on the claw. (I could be very wrong but I thought that was what he claimed he was pissed about in wc2) and the storyline consistentincy between the game and the movie had bossman dead before blair even got on the ship making no since.
 
I just looked below and some of what your saying didn't make since so My question is: Is blue hair Blair in wc1 or are you refering to the spinoff armada
 

Concordia

Swabbie
Banned
Originally posted by Dougie
Is it not more likely that Forstchen made a mistake by overlooking this passage? The alternative being that it was a different 'St. John' who served on the Tiger's Claw round about the time of WC1 who was a close personal friend of K'Kai.

Unlikely, the guy's name was listed as Ian "Hunter" St. John. It's him alright.

Or perhaps more likely, that voices of war can be disregarded as being overriden by Forstchen's novels, considering how brilliant they are and how nearly totally ignored Armada is. I'd place novel fiction above armada random writer who thought the Claw even survived K'Tithrak Mang fiction. But that's just me.

As a rule, documentation is supposed to override any books. Armada seems to cover some things that Fleet Action did not actually. Such as the Concordia persuing the remaining Hakagas.

All 5 hakagas were not supposed to be blown up at Sol. I think it was 3 of 5. Concordia persued the last one or two.

Thinking about it, there are so many places unexplored in the Wing Commander timeline that can be explored by perhaps the unknown enemy team. The whole Blair's side of fighting and being crippled in the battle of earth, and the concordia's last few months as a piece-of-crap carrier as opposed to its usual status as flagship of the fleet.

The Concordia was only "a piece of crap" as you say because it got the sh*t pounded out of it on numerous occasions.

To give you an idea...

1.) 2661: CVS-65, TCS-Concordia commissioned, second or third ship of Confederation-Class. (No Damage)

2.) 2661-2665: Probably some damage, but not officially mentioned (this is pure speculation, not canon).

3.) 2665: Concordia battlegroup ambushed by Kilrathi forces forcing them to retreat to Gwenydd for assistance from Caernavon Starbase. Escort Destroyer Beowulf destroyed; Concordia one torpedo hit from being destroyed.

4.) 2665: Concordia hangar bay damaged by a time-delay explosive which was initially believed to be a fuel-line explosion. Detonation causes heavy damage to flight-bay, sending blastwave out both flight-decks. Flight-operations temporarily halted while damage was repaired. Subsequent investigation revealed explosion to be the result of sabotage.

5.) 2665-2667: Some damage probably.

6.) 2667-2668: Concordia said to look like gashed-up boxer after years of abuse and no time to repair.

7.) 2668: Concordia takes three direct torpedo hits, and probably numerous smaller hits forcing her to retreat.

8.) 2668: Concordia persues the remaining Hakaga(s) engaging in battle. Hakaga(s) is(are) destroyed. Concordia takes additional damage in engagements.

9.) 2668: Despite all the patchwork done by her damage-control teams, the damage Concordia has sustained over the past 7-years (predominantly the last 3) begins to catch up with her. CVS-65 is forced off the front lines because she's practically falling apart at the seams, but still unable to return to base because of Confeds lack of Fleet Carriers.

Comment Inserted HereSure, the ship ended up as a piece of crap, but look how much poundings it took! That thing got bombed, torpedoed, sabotaged, shot at, and probably rammed (by a fighter). I think the Kilrathi even threw one of their Kitchen sinks at it (bounced off the phase-shielding).

For the most part BTW, the Confederation Class (the type of ship Concordia was) was regarded as the most powerful ship in the fleet. To make it even better, she also possessed an excellent crew with special mention to Admiral Tolwyn and extraordinary pilots, namely Colonel Blair.

-Concordia
 

WildWeasel

Spaceman
Originally posted by DoomsdayPlague
but wasn't Jazz and Knight related and he felt that Blair let his brother die on the claw. (I could be very wrong but I thought that was what he claimed he was pissed about in wc2)

Yes, you are very wrong. Jazz's problem was that he lost a relative (his brother, I believe) on Goddard when the colony was destroyed. He blamed the Tiger's Claw and everyone on board because while they were heading to Goddard, they briefly sidetracked to take out some Kilrathi troop transports. Even though it wouldn't have mattered, Jazz still believed that they could've saved Goddard had they ignored those transports.

Jazz and Knight are not related.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
As a rule, documentation is supposed to override any books. Armada seems to cover some things that Fleet Action did not actually. Such as the Concordia persuing the remaining Hakagas.

All 5 hakagas were not supposed to be blown up at Sol. I think it was 3 of 5. Concordia persued the last one or two.

There's not anything about that in Voices of War. It specifically says that two of the ships survive and escape to Kilrah...

For the most part BTW, the Confederation Class (the type of ship Concordia was) was regarded as the most powerful ship in the fleet.

Except when they'd randomly blow up.

I just looked below and some of what your saying didn't make since so My question is: Is blue hair Blair in wc1 or are you refering to the spinoff armada

We were talking about Armada. The character in WC1 is Blair.

but wasn't Jazz and Knight related and he felt that Blair let his brother die on the claw. (I could be very wrong but I thought that was what he claimed he was pissed about in wc2) and the storyline consistentincy between the game and the movie had bossman dead before blair even got on the ship making no since.

Half-right. Jazz blamed the crew of the Tiger's Claw for letting his brother die in SM1... his brother was one of the colonists on Goddard killed by the Sivar dreadnaught. Knight wasn't related to Jazz -- and in all likelyhood he was *killed* by Jazz. :)

So the Claw got destroyed, I presume, because stealths got behind the patrols and ambushed the carrier, which presumably had patrols eveywhere, and presumably Blair got the blame because they appeared to come from an area of space he should've been guarding.

Blair was the first to get back to the 'Claw after it called for help. So when everyone else returned to the scene they found Blair and no Tiger's Claw... and then when Blair landed on the Austin they found that his flight recorder had been tampered with. (It didn't help that he claimed that he'd encountered "invisible fighters").

I'm just curious how the fighters were recovered after the carrier was destroyed. I mean, the Claw tended to fly as one ship fleet, like the Concordia, so who would have recovered the non jump capable fighter craft deep in enemy territory and surely not outfitted for days of wasting fuel and oxygen. i'd have thought the fighters would be pretty boned?

They landed on the TCS Austin, which was nearby. There's a fairly detailed novel-esque version of the 'Claws destruction in the WC1/2 Guide which answers all these questions (how people survived, where they landed, etc.).

But doesn't he tell Casey about the time when Iceman took him on his wing when he'd lost a wingman and was a basket case? Presumably it happened before Blair was disgraced, because doesn't he tell Casey how Blair and he found his father's body? I might be wrong about that. But Iceman definitely flew with Hawk, unless he's a liar.

Nah, happened afterwards -- Iceman and Hawk flew together at whatever their next assignment was.
 
Well Wildweasel I'm not totally wrong like you and Banditloaf have proved but only half wrong by stating that his brother did die and he blamed the claw and Blair. but my Question to you and loaf is why would jazz wait ten years to get revenge why wouldn't he had turned earlier? matter of fact maybe he was the one who had sabotaged the Tigers Claw by giving info on it like he did with the Concordia for getting back at the claw team over the Goddard problem? (essentually leaving blair with the blame) has there been some documentation on what happened between the ten years of the first one and the second? Also I don't recall him in the first game as a pilot (but was told he is in the story time line.) did I miss him in the game (was he in the SM1 and SM2) cause when I started two he and blair seem like they knew each other and didn't like each other but I had no knowledge of his existence till that moment?
 
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