Classification of TCS Eisen

There have been a few comments regarding the posting of Vampires on a smaller carrier in seeming contradiction of comments in the manual. The primary evidence for such a posting is the fact that Excaliburs were posted on the Victory.
This evidence ignores some very simple flaws.
1.) The Excaliburs weren't in general deployment on ANY class of ship of the fleet. Given the window between the final testing of the Excalibur on board the Victory and the deployment of a squadron of Excaliburs to the Victory, I think its more likely to assume that at the time of the T-Bomb run on Kilrah, the Victory was the FIRST carrier flying a fully operational squadron of Excaliburs. Confed hadn't had time to implement full deployment of these fighters, and the wartime necessities required a special, last-minute deployment, to quite possibly the best pilots in the entire navy, in order to make certain that the T-Bomb was properly delivered to its target. A Ranger class carrier was probably chosen for a single reason - it was the largest carrier that Confed could afford to pull off of the front lines to devote to the 'destroy Kilrah' projects. And had the Victory carried a fighter that was already capable of getting through the defenses of Kilrah, then the Excalibur might have been assigned elsewhere.

2.) In contrast to the Excalibur at the end of the war, the Vampires have been in general deployment for some time. Command has already come up with a deployment scheme for fighters.
Thunderbolts - Installations get access to these older fighters until enough modern fighters trickle down.
Excaliburs - Installations get access to these older fighters until enough modern fighters trickle down.
Panthers - Every carrier in the fleet carries these fighters (or will shortly carry them), which are excellent fighters, and capable of carrying out a wide range of duties.
Vampires - The larger carriers in the fleet carry these fighters. They are probably better suited to anti-fighter duty than the Panther, but also somewhat restricted in the duties they can perform. Their superior anti-fighter capability, coupled with their anti-turret Wild Weasel package, indicates that they're geared toward escorting and protecting bombers in strikes against heavily defended targets. Since you usually send only the biggest carriers against a hardened target, the Vampires are restricted to the heaviest carriers as a cost-cutting measure.

One last item. Given that the Midway was waiting for its Vampires and Devestators to arrive at the beginning of the game, I'd say chances are that Confed Navy had already designated that the Wolfpack would be transferred to the Midway by the TCS Eisen. The Eisen was probably already leaving the Core Systems and heading for the Kilrathi frontier when the distress call from the Midway was received. The fighters on board the Eisen would thus be indicative of what the Eisen would normally carry, and thus not be fighters that were switched in at the last minute.
 
The first operational Excalibur squadron was actually onboard the TCS Eagle, one of Confed's new escort carriers.
 
Originally posted by Viper61
Ok, Haesslich, it would be really helpful if you could deduce some things from previous posts, but history shows that just gets people confused.

Q & A:
Q - TCS Eisen a Vesuvius?
A - Yes, from information it probably is (and from mine and Loafs argument, I'd have to agree). But if you rely on either the head programmer or the FMV director's coffee boy for information that didn't make it into the game or literature somewhere you get in trouble. Everyones got different opinions and you're bound to get clashing information (anyone remember the Blade Runner "Was he or was he not an android?" question that everyone including the star, the director and the novelist had a slightly different opinion on?) Unless somethings stated in something that's canon (dammit theres that word again, here comes the topic drift. . . noooooooooo) or can be deduced form information in the c word, I wouldn't put much faith in it (translation: Unless it came from a game, it's manuals, books, movie or TV show, or god himself - Chris Roberts, of the WC universe anyway :) - I wouldn't try to stand on it. )

For heaven's sake, you've been told by one of the people who helped make the game and decide how WC went. We're not just talking Joe Gametester or Joe Coder, but we're talking about someone who was actually there for the fricking meetings, and there to help design the way the WC universe went at that point. Chris Roberts wasn't even working on WC at the point of Prophecy, so using HIM as a 'canon' source is a poor bloody answer too - by that time, he was not doing WC. Asking him for answers on games after Prophecy is like asking Gene Roddenberry about Enterprise - that's not his baby, and he wouldn't be able to tell you what's canon about it even if he was alive to answer questions.

Q - only Vesuvius class vessels being produced after WC3?
A - Read Loafs answer, no they were not. Ladiesman, hit the nail on the head. Vesuvius vessels were anything but cost-effective (actually for the force it put up they were probab;y close). In any case they were extremely expensive to build. The midway? We aren't even talking about carriers there yet. The Midway is where this discussion stops assuming that the Midway is being built to take over all the roles of the carriers we are talking about. And wow, thanks for restating what we've been saying the past several days. Appreciate ya *clicking teeth and pointing at you*

Look - did I say only Vesuvius-class carriers were being produced? No. However, the emphasis on the fleet as far back as WC3's time seemed to be the introduction of more escort carriers since they could carry fighters into more areas for the same resource investment into an older-design carrier. They allow you greater coverage and keep you from having to depend on heavy cruisers alone to escort convoys or other craft that need escorting.

HOWEVER, escort carriers lack the punch fleet carriers do in delivering heavy damage to hardened and well-defended targets. They're not likely to survive such actions, being underarmored and undergunned... as noted in End Run by Bondarevsky, upon commenting on the design of the Escort Carrier. We also have some more proof of this through Wing Commander 4, where the TCS Eagle was unable to penetrate Kilrathi space far enough to deliver the Excaliburs for their Kilrah run. The Eagle, as noted in many sources, is an escort carrier and one of their newest ones. She did NOT have the punch that even a light carrier like the Ranger-class does.

But, are you going to spend your money to build older-style carriers which were designed during the start of the war to deal with post-Kilrathi war threats? Especially when you'll need to rebuild their freaking shipyards and train more people to build the old design? Look, you've already got Escort Carrier yards ready to handle a lot of needs and you're decomissioning a lot of older carriers from the Kilrathi war era. You've got shipyards for Vesuvius-class craft as well, and you can probably build one or two more of these to handle serious force projection, and you've got shipyards turning out Midway-class craft already. Are you going to spend the extra money to built yet another early Kilrathi-war design craft, especially since it may not well be able to cope with the newer threats out there?

I'm not sure I would, but that's because I have a budget and people to consider.


Q- Vampires not on carriers other than Vesuvius or Midway do to maybe not coming back?
A - So you are saying that you wouldn't want the best warplanes for the job fighting a battle? What about the Excal? Would you have liked Confed to say, "well, we aren't risking our state of the art technology (Excalibur) on a carrier that won't be able to defend it. Lets leave them where there safe and let the war go on a few decades more! ". I'd say to have 2 vampires (WC and wingman) on a small carrier (if this is supportable) would be an excellent idea. You can't get much more bang for your buck than with a vampire. Why would you limit your capabliity and effectiveness in battle just to ensure that your fighter would come back? Isn't one of your fighters duties to protect the carrier? IT's already been done in the WC history. The Tarawa had the brand new Sabre-D's with all new torpedo tracking systems on board. This was do to the mission it had to accomplish and other factors (limited space, etc). So whay can't the Vampire be the same way (going on a bug hunt that's going to be a long tour of duty? Use the fighters that's most capable of doing this)? Going into bug space? I know I'd feel alot better with a few vampires in my launch bay.

C-ya

So you're saying you're going to waste these ships willy-nilly rather than have an effective strike force on a few carriers? The Tarawa's Saber-D's were a compromise for the Escort Carrier, because they are NOT necessarily better than the C-series (they weren't, actually - the whole 'cramped cockpit' issue was one noted by Bear, which meant that the craft which was not designed for two people suddenly had necessary displays hidden from the main pilot). The Sabre-D class was acknowledged as being inferior to a Broadsword solution to bombing runs (less armor on top of having vital readouts suddenly inaccessible to the pilot). I wouldn't base an argument around THAT craft.

Beyond that, it's already been noted what the Vampire's mission is... and THAT is one huge reason to put them on the heavy carriers. You don't usually have the space to launch a good bomber strike off an escort carrier, nor is the escort carrier likely to survive long enough for its bombers to come home to and refuel and rearm. Remember End Run? That was a major fleet action at Vukar Tag, and Bear knew damned well that if the Tarawa was there, it'd be toast. Why? Because it couldn't survive the same hits that even the Gettysburg and Wolfhound could, much less the TCS Concordia...

In the WCP era, we've also noted that they have gone to more specialized designs for their missions... and the Vampire is specialized to hunt and kill other fighters in combat and to hunt and kill turrets. However, they're more effective in packs, and they're not usually used to guard a carrier - they'd be wasted there in a mission that could be done as well by a Panther, or better by a Wasp if there was really an attack incoming.

So, tell me this: are you really going to waste two Vampires (your most expensive fighter at the moment) on each ship that might be able to carry them, in the hope that two fighters alone will tip the balance in missions (and most of them Wing Commanders don't fly as well as Blair or Casey do), or are you going to concentrate them on maybe a dozen or two dozen platforms that will definitely get the job done, and also have the punch to get those fighters to where they're needed? You're pissing away your strength otherwise, in spreading them out so far apart.
 
We should also take into consideration that Vampires are assigned to Confed's *elite* fighter wings -- which would rarely be assigned to escort carriers.
 
So...
Piranha - light, undergunned fighter designed for recon work. Presumably has a longer range than most other fighters, and is faster than the other Confed fighters. Built for speed. Long range guns. Light missile load-out primarily appropriate for unmaneuverable targets (mostly HS missiles).
Tigershark - Multi-Role fighter. Light long-range guns and heavier close-in weapons. Actually faster than the Panther under normal thrust. Carries rocket pods for bombardment.
Panther - Superiority fighter. Slowest fighter under normal thrust. AB speed is faster than Tigershark. Missile load-out optimized for dogfighting (FF and IR missiles). Light WW loadout available. More manueverable than Tigershark.
Wasp - Optimized interceptor. Strap-on boosterpack available for faster closure rate with incoming. Short range swarmers and mass drivers for use against slow flying bombers (which are easier to catch up with), along with HS missiles, which are useful against less manueverable bomber types. Tachyons and IR missiles for escorting fighters.
Vampire - Superiority fighter. Fastest Confed fighter under normal thrust and AB thrust (even faster than Piranha). Only faster fighter is Wasp under booster-rocket thrust. Highest pitch and roll rates (yaw, on the other hand, is somewhat lacking). Heavy, long-range guns. LARGE missile assortment that appears to be primarily designed to minimize lock time. MIRV missiles appear designed to "spook" large numbers of fighters without need for pilot judgement. They may not kill if they hit, but they'll at least make the enemy pilot think twice about hanging onto someone's tail. FF missiles are useful for nearby fighters that jump the Vampire. IR missiles provide a larger payload than other two types, while allowing a short, all-aspect, lock time. WW load-out also much larger than Panther/Tigershark load-out, providing four times as many anti-fighter missiles, and 33% more HARM missiles.

Pirahnas are probably encountered all over the place. Any ship that's likely to need a high-speed fly-by of a long range target probably has at least a couple of them on hand.
Tigersharks are probably available on nearly every Confed carrier, and slowly replacing the older Thunderbolt and Excalibur squadrons posted to bases throughout Confed space. Given the current Nephilim crisis, and the ability of the Nephilim to seeminly invade any area of Confed space, this replacement policy will probably be sped up as resources permit.
Panthers are probably also in use on most carriers. The lightest carriers (i.e. any carrier that only carries a single fighter squadron, and any hybrids similar to the Kilrathi cruiser designs) probably carry strictly Tigersharks, but anything larger than an escort carrier (CVLs and similar ships) probably carry a squadron of Panthers to act as a dedicated superiority squadron. The fleet carriers (Vesuvius and Midway classes) also probably carry a squadron for strikes against mid-level targets (we know that the Midway class does, at least).
Wasps are probably only in use on the fleet carriers. Anything smaller probably doesn't have the space to devote to a squadron of fighters that is pretty much a one-trick fighter. That's not necessarily a given, however. A number of bases are probably being assigned these fighters, as well (or will be assigned them shortly). Their non-mobile status, along with their tendency to be placed in strategic areas, make them more likely to draw strikes, and thus the perfect place to position these fighters.
Vampires are superior to other Confed fighters in nearly every area of performance. As a result, they are almost certainly the most expensive. If a mission doesn't require high-end performance, then the Panthers or Tigersharks probably draw the job. But if it involves a heavily defended, high-end target, with lots of fighters and/or turrets providing defense, then the Vampire can be assigned to go in and clean them out. Probably due to price, only carriers that are expected to tackle difficult targets are provided with these fighters, and only the best squadrons on those carriers are allowed to fly these fighters. It is no coincidence that those same carriers often have the best fighter pilots in the fleet.
 
Plus, escort carriers have smaller budget and expensive equpment is used by those ships wich have reserved more money.

What else do we know about Eisen? Wich fleet she was part of and were there any special missions for her?
 
Originally posted by Rami Sihvo
What else do we know about Eisen? Wich fleet she was part of and were there any special missions for her?

We don't know. She ferries the Wolfpack squadron to the Midway, provides Vampire Wild Weasels for a strike against Nephilim ships, and helps to push the Nephilim back to the Kilrah jump node.
She never appears in the game, and no additional mention of her is made in the game.
 
Originally posted by Viper61
Alright! Someone knows their catapult history (should be taught in the classroom in my opinion :) ). Actually I was talking about The Brit-copied stream ones (the only ones from that era that were capable of launching a significant amount of weight - namely around 30,000 lbs) I just forgot to include that in my defense, thx Ender.
Or maybe you should have specified, rather than just saying "Catapult technology". :)
 
#1 - Roberts reference was for a laugh (apaprently lost in the translation to . . . nevermind that's an old joke too). Ok so your acquanintance got to bring coffee to the designers meetings at Origin, I'll still trust what can be deduced or what is actually important enough to be written into the history of a subject rather than listen to and accept what might have been had there been more time/space/etc (this is assuming that we actually disagree about a point, which we don't. You just seem to rely more on blind faith than thinking and discussing it with others at the CZ). And we're back to the point that everyone was trying to make (and I've been convinced is true) . . . the TCS Eisen is probably a Vesuvius-class carrier (the probably being removed by nothing short of a copy of a TCS ship registry or meeting the TCS Eisen in a future game)

#2 - the phrase "why spend money on carriers from the Kilrathi war era?" gave me my first thought that you didn't think Confed made anything other than Vesuvius class carriers. Oh and again we're not talking about post-Midway carriers. The interim years between the kilrathi war and Prophecy are in question. Ships are phased out you don't just stop producing something. That's how gaps in operational effeciency are made. Look at the F-15 introduced int eh 70's (or was it early 80's?). It's an older design, but do we scrap it to move on to bigger and better things? No we improve upon the design and give it more updated technology. Older model carriers (like the Eagle) will probably be produced until the Midway carriers are numerous enough to handle the jobs the Eagles were assigned to. So throwing away money on old carriers? not really. Keeping a continuous flow of military power with no interuptions? more likely.

#3 - ok the 2 Vampires in every home was a little too far on my part. But again, I'll ask, can anyone see any reason that the Vampire for some crazy reason that could come up (lets see I need a daring raid into the heart of enemy territory, but I'm going to give you ships that won't get the job done, but we don't mind losing because they don;t cost that much - I think I'd rather the mission be a success and loose the vampires than they not get there at all) could be stationed on a smaller carrier?

C-ya
 
Originally posted by Viper61
[B#2 - the phrase "why spend money on carriers from the Kilrathi war era?" gave me my first thought that you didn't think Confed made anything other than Vesuvius class carriers. Oh and again we're not talking about post-Midway carriers. The interim years between the kilrathi war and Prophecy are in question. Ships are phased out you don't just stop producing something. That's how gaps in operational effeciency are made. Look at the F-15 introduced int eh 70's (or was it early 80's?). It's an older design, but do we scrap it to move on to bigger and better things? No we improve upon the design and give it more updated technology. Older model carriers (like the Eagle) will probably be produced until the Midway carriers are numerous enough to handle the jobs the Eagles were assigned to. So throwing away money on old carriers? not really. Keeping a continuous flow of military power with no interuptions? more likely.
[/B]

Unless Confed suddenly becomes absolutely overflowing with wealth in the near future (beyond even the most jaded politician's wildest dreams), the number of Midway carriers in operation will probably never have anything to do with the number of Eagle carriers.
Why?
The two simply do not have anything to do with each other. The Midway fills one role. Its a big carrier. The Eagle fills another role. Its an itty-bitty carrier that goes places where big carriers aren't needed.
While Confed had other carriers during the war that were closer to what the Vesuvius and the Midway do, its hardly a stretch to argue that they're no longer in production by the time Eisen retires (which would be the earliest that a TCS Eisen would probably be commissioned). There's no reason to keep building the things when the Vesuvius is in full production, and could, according to Tolwyn, "...put the fear of God into the Kilrathi." You don't build F-4s when you can build F-15s, and chances are, we won't be building F-15s when we can build JSFs (add to that the fact that carriers aren't attrition craft, which are produced en bulk). Eisen is still in the military while at least two Vesuvius class carriers are (semi) operational, and thus presumably in full production by the time Eisen retires. Confed is at peace, its only real enemy is shattered, and there's no reason to keep wasting money on an expensive outdated design when the brand new one will work just fine.
 
<QUOTE>#1 - Roberts reference was for a laugh (apaprently lost in the translation to . . . nevermind that's an old joke too). Ok so your acquanintance got to bring coffee to the designers meetings at Origin, I'll still trust what can be deduced or what is actually important enough to be written into the history of a subject rather than listen to and accept what might have been had there been more time/space/etc (this is assuming that we actually disagree about a point, which we don't. You just seem to rely more on blind faith than thinking and discussing it with others at the CZ).</QUOTE>

Lets be fair -- everyone involved in this thread is doing a great job of actually thinking and discussing this politely... no need for more petty accusations as to who thinks 'right'.

<QUOTE>#2 - the phrase "why spend money on carriers from the Kilrathi war era?" gave me my first thought that you didn't think Confed made anything other than Vesuvius class carriers. Oh and again we're not talking about post-Midway carriers. The interim years between the kilrathi war and Prophecy are in question. Ships are phased out you don't just stop producing something. That's how gaps in operational effeciency are made. Look at the F-15 introduced int eh 70's (or was it early 80's?). It's an older design, but do we scrap it to move on to bigger and better things? No we improve upon the design and give it more updated technology. Older model carriers (like the Eagle) will probably be produced until the Midway carriers are numerous enough to handle the jobs the Eagles were assigned to. So throwing away money on old carriers? not really. Keeping a continuous flow of military power with no interuptions? more likely. </QUOTE>

The Eagle is separate from all this -- it's a *very* new design, compared to Concordias, Bengals, Tarawa-types and Confederations... I'm sure it's supposed to stay in service and it apparently has an important role to play.

Lets take the odd aircraft analogy even more literaly: Prophecy takes place in 2681 -- 47 years after the Concordia class was first produced. In 1974 when the F-15 was introduced, was the US military still buying (buying -- not keeping in service but buying new...) the same sort of aircraft that were produced in 1927, just because they *could*?

#3 - ok the 2 Vampires in every home was a little too far on my part. But again, I'll ask, can anyone see any reason that the Vampire for some crazy reason that could come up (lets see I need a daring raid into the heart of enemy territory, but I'm going to give you ships that won't get the job done, but we don't mind losing because they don;t cost that much - I think I'd rather the mission be a success and loose the vampires than they not get there at all) could be stationed on a smaller carrier?

Again, simple deck size: if it prevents the Tarawa from carrying Broadswords it can prevent an escort carrier from carrying Vampires... wasn't there a similar real-life limitation for escort carriers during World War II -- some types of aircraft couldn't be flown off the smaller decks?
 
Originally posted by Viper61
Ok so your acquanintance got to bring coffee to the designers meetings at Origin

Um... yeah... that's some good knowing what you're talking about... Capn Johnny would be John Guentzel. If you'll check the credits for Prophecy and Secret Ops you'll notice that he is credited as 'Designer'. He's one of the most fan friendly, and continuity oriented designers I've ever seen. He's the one you can credit for the nice Universe Map, for example. If you can find a higher source for Prophecy or Secret Ops design related informations (read: the lead designers of either game) I'd be quite happy to listen to them. I would, however, like it if you wouldn't belittle a man's credentials without at least making a half-assed effort to find out what you're talking about.
 
Originally posted by Viper61
#1 - Roberts reference was for a laugh (apaprently lost in the translation to . . . nevermind that's an old joke too). Ok so your acquanintance got to bring coffee to the designers meetings at Origin, I'll still trust what can be deduced or what is actually important enough to be written into the history of a subject rather than listen to and accept what might have been had there been more time/space/etc (this is assuming that we actually disagree about a point, which we don't. You just seem to rely more on blind faith than thinking and discussing it with others at the CZ). And we're back to the point that everyone was trying to make (and I've been convinced is true) . . . the TCS Eisen is probably a Vesuvius-class carrier (the probably being removed by nothing short of a copy of a TCS ship registry or meeting the TCS Eisen in a future game)

#2 - the phrase "why spend money on carriers from the Kilrathi war era?" gave me my first thought that you didn't think Confed made anything other than Vesuvius class carriers. Oh and again we're not talking about post-Midway carriers. The interim years between the kilrathi war and Prophecy are in question. Ships are phased out you don't just stop producing something. That's how gaps in operational effeciency are made. Look at the F-15 introduced int eh 70's (or was it early 80's?). It's an older design, but do we scrap it to move on to bigger and better things? No we improve upon the design and give it more updated technology. Older model carriers (like the Eagle) will probably be produced until the Midway carriers are numerous enough to handle the jobs the Eagles were assigned to. So throwing away money on old carriers? not really. Keeping a continuous flow of military power with no interuptions? more likely.

#3 - ok the 2 Vampires in every home was a little too far on my part. But again, I'll ask, can anyone see any reason that the Vampire for some crazy reason that could come up (lets see I need a daring raid into the heart of enemy territory, but I'm going to give you ships that won't get the job done, but we don't mind losing because they don;t cost that much - I think I'd rather the mission be a success and loose the vampires than they not get there at all) could be stationed on a smaller carrier?

C-ya

I'm going to let LOAF and junior's arguments stand in my stead, since they've covered just about everything I'd have covered... and TC has hit the last point I was going to make. But really, please do yourself a favor and a) research and b) think through your arguments before using them to try and shoot me down?

And if you're going to point to the Cerberus as an example of a lighter craft than a heavy fleet carrier that was equipped with vampires - be aware that it was out there for a very specific purpose and a very specific mission, which necessitated rotating a half-squadron of pilots off of the Midway and assigning craft from Special Ops for their use to the ship for the duration of the mission. But I don't see many elite squadrons put on the small ships, not when the larger ships offer so much more help (y'know, even those elite guys often need cover).
 
And the Cereberus was hardley undergunned or underamoured like an Escort Carrier. It was well able to fend off a good portion of the pea soup waves of bugs and take a few "forgotten" torpedoes. If I remember the Tarawa fell apart after *one* torpedoe in ER, and could barely hold it's own agains a handful of Kilrathi fighters. Not to mention the Cereberus has a launch tube running the length of the ship. See my statements on the Midway and Vesuvius...

And anyone else notice how long, drawn out, and repetitive this has gotten? :D
 
Originally posted by t.c.cgi
And the Cereberus was hardley undergunned or underamoured like an Escort Carrier. It was well able to fend off a good portion of the pea soup waves of bugs and take a few "forgotten" torpedoes. If I remember the Tarawa fell apart after *one* torpedoe in ER, and could barely hold it's own agains a handful of Kilrathi fighters. Not to mention the Cereberus has a launch tube running the length of the ship. See my statements on the Midway and Vesuvius...

That's because the Cerberus was a Strike Carrier.....
 
The coffee boy quip was for another laugh, seing that I had no clue who I was talking about anyway, I don't know why anyone would be offended.

So in the end, everyone here (at least the people in the past few post) have agreed with me in the fact that the Vesuvius (and the Midway later) are not the only Confed carriers being made int eh time between the Kilrathi War and Prophecy (and even following prophecy). Wonderful, now I've wasted about an hour of my life the past few days writing dozens of useless posts.

Midways can't be everywhere I know. I guess it would have been more clear if I said that Midways will be produced until they strike up a good operational balance with Vesuvius and Eagle carriers.

Okay I didn't even think about using the Cerberus as an example, but okay. It was acarrier that was sent out with a specific purpose, why can't a smaller carrier have a specific purpose (like the Tarawa did) and to up the betting line on its ability to succeed, it needed the latest and greatest anti-fighter weapon in the Confed armory - the Vampire. Loaf you keep bringing up the size issue with the Tarawa and the Broadsword. The reason the Tarawa couldn't take on broadswords weas teh storage space because of both the carrier and the bombers size. With the Vampire being smaller than most normal craft that would be on an escort carrier anyway, why wouldn't it be able to perform this duty? Escort carriers in WWII couldn't carry some fighters due to the fighters size and weight (not the case with the Vampire). I can see size being a problem if the equipment used to service the Vampire was large and cumbersome, but aparently it isn't very large if it can fit in a Hades. Explain por favor, in more detail, what you mean by the size.

C-ya
 
Chris Roberts was in #wingnut tonight and he said this:

[02:16] <ChrisRoberts> The Eisen is a Ranger Class
[02:17] <ChrisRoberts> Don´t make me post in the CZ and break your ass!
[02:17] <_Ghost> Hello Mr Roberts


The word of God, himself!
 
Originally posted by Viper61
The coffee boy quip was for another laugh, seing that I had no clue who I was talking about anyway, I don't know why anyone would be offended.

So in the end, everyone here (at least the people in the past few post) have agreed with me in the fact that the Vesuvius (and the Midway later) are not the only Confed carriers being made int eh time between the Kilrathi War and Prophecy (and even following prophecy). Wonderful, now I've wasted about an hour of my life the past few days writing dozens of useless posts.

Midways can't be everywhere I know. I guess it would have been more clear if I said that Midways will be produced until they strike up a good operational balance with Vesuvius and Eagle carriers.

Okay I didn't even think about using the Cerberus as an example, but okay. It was acarrier that was sent out with a specific purpose, why can't a smaller carrier have a specific purpose (like the Tarawa did) and to up the betting line on its ability to succeed, it needed the latest and greatest anti-fighter weapon in the Confed armory - the Vampire. Loaf you keep bringing up the size issue with the Tarawa and the Broadsword. The reason the Tarawa couldn't take on broadswords weas teh storage space because of both the carrier and the bombers size. With the Vampire being smaller than most normal craft that would be on an escort carrier anyway, why wouldn't it be able to perform this duty? Escort carriers in WWII couldn't carry some fighters due to the fighters size and weight (not the case with the Vampire). I can see size being a problem if the equipment used to service the Vampire was large and cumbersome, but aparently it isn't very large if it can fit in a Hades. Explain por favor, in more detail, what you mean by the size.

C-ya

The TCS Cerberus is a Quick Strike CRUISER. That's why it's got that huge motherfucking gun out front. It's armored heavily for missions where you don't necessarily want to waste a fleet carrier (due to reasons of it being too expensive and too slow) but which would chew up an Escort Carrier. So you put the fighters on the scary, fast armored cruiser that can zip in, deploy a force and shoot the damned target itself if it must before running away. Might want to read TC's clarification below on the Cerberus' status.

Escort carriers have two simple missions, the ones that aren't rebuilt transports: they're there to cover more space for the same money you'd spend on a fleet carrier in missions that don't need the heavy firepower of that awesomely powerful craft, and they're expendable for when you need a ship that can carry fighters but which you can afford to lose in an action.

Do note that the Hades-class craft were designed with the mission I noted above in mind; therefore you design for the craft you know you need for that. You don't send Escort Carriers into areas where they're going to get cut up, unless you don't have a choice or need to lose this carrier because you can't afford to send someone else in... but where the loss of that carrier is relatively unimportant. But you're not going to send your most expensive fighters (entrusted to your best pilots) into that situation either, not on an escort. Also take note of the fact that the Hades-class Quick Strike Cruisers are 777 meters long - over ten percent longer than the Tiger's Claw and all other Bengal-class carriers at 700 meters for the TC and the Bengal, with the Kipling and the other Bengal-class being some 10 meters shorter. Cerberus has the room that an escort carrier like the Tarawa and its successors lacked, seeing that WC1 and WC2 era-transports were usually less than 100 meters long.

Size is still a problem, and survivability definitely is. It's why your elite squadrons are based off fleet carriers - they last longer in a heavy fight.
 
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