Can it be???

[Hero]

Can the man we all love to hate, the deceased Major Jack "Jazz" Colsen, actually be <dramatic pause>................</dramatic pause> a Pilgrim?!

I don't remember where he was originally from, but him being a pilgrim can add a whole new way to look at WC2!

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Evilution!

[This message has been edited by Hero (edited August 31, 2000).]

 

[Shane]

Evidence, please? Well at least you aren't suggesting he's alive.

The death of his family on Goddard was his motivation. Though I always thought it a tad strange. The Cats were responsible not the Claw, but I guess he was insane. I'm guessing he had a second motivation by being a pilgrim to get at Blair and Confed, according to your suggestion?

While we are throwing out ideas, I once thought of writing a story where someone was pretending to be Jazz (or was it really Jazz,

back from the grave?) and was causing all sorts of headaches for Blair and Confed. I was feeling ambitious enough to actually link the Mandarins and the Church of Man and actually have it turn out to be an increasingly insane Mynx. The radiation had almost killed her and damaged her mind. A Church of Man transport came to Ayer's Rock (never came up with a reason, though RF sort of provided one) and they found her. She "became" Jazz to get back at Blair, having forgotten or have twisted the events, and believing that he had abandonned her. She had access to Church of Man resources and accounts set up by the Mandarins so she had a good budget to work from. Never got the story past the planning phases, mainly becuase while I could see how she could lose her chest, I couldn't come up with a "realistic" explanation for her hips, and no way could she impersonate a guy with those hips. Also, with the release of the map now, getting between Deneb Quad and Gemini Sector would introduce additional problems.

 

[Wedge009]

Heh, heh. Those are wacky ideas, guys.

 

[Quarto]

Hero: Major Zach Colson

.

And no, he's not a Pilgrim. Most Pilgrims don't come from Kansas

.

Shane: He blamed the Tiger's Claw because it supposedly detoured to take out a pair of Kilrathi troopships, and consequently arrived too late to save Goddard. However, he was wrong anyway - there's no way the crew of the 'Claw would have stopped the Sivar from firing the weapon. There was all too many Kilrathi capships out there.

And your idea is indeed wacky

.

 

[Shane]

I admit it was wacky, which is the final reason I neve did anything with it

The problem I had with Jazz was why side with the Cats, who were the ones who killed his family? Why not become like Ice and have more motivation for finishing off the Kilrathi? That misapplication of blame is why I'm arguing he was to some extent insane.

 

[Quarto]

Well, he was convinced that the Tiger's Claw could have saved the colony, but failed to do so because they considered bagging two transports to be more important. I don't think he was insane - but I'm convinced that he was misinformed by the Mandarins. And of course, the Mandarins were misinformed by the Kilrathi.

 

[Shane]

That level of hatred for the Claw, and everyone on it, and the extent he went to is the sign of some type of mental illness. He clearly isn't dumb, so I don't believe he was duped by the Mandarins.

One thought, maybe at some point he was hoping to get high enough and trusted enough that he could get at the Cats responsible. If he had to kill humans in the process he didn't care, just so he got to all those who he felt were responsible.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited September 01, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

Well, it's possible that he was insane, but I really don't think he would have gotten as far as he did if he had been. Rather, he was blinded by his hatred, and that's why he let the Mandarins dupe him. He probably knew all too well that blaming the 'Claw was stupid - but it was much easier (or at least it seemed to be) for him to nuke the 'Claw than to hunt down the Kilrathi... oh, wait. There was also the slight detail that all the Kilrathi responsible were dead already

.

 

[Hero]

Wow, easy there guys, I didn't come and said Jazz must be a Pilgrim, I've just thought to myself that we know Blair & Paladin are, so who else might be one, and Jazz looked like a perfect pick.

Hero: Major Zach Colson

.

I knew I had to have a mistake somewhere, hopefully I'll remember it next time (either that, or I'll just go and cheak my manuals

).

IMO, what Jazz did was pretty cleaver: After all, he was a top ace pilot and he did have a high kill score. So in his way, he got his revenge against the 'Claw, and got his revenge against the Kats. It was something like "both sides against the middle".
However, he had to be a little crazy, helping the Kats: I don't think that life under the Kats were Jazz style, and they probably would have killed him or imprison him for life anyway, and one thing Jazz is good in, is saving his skin

.

 

[Dralthi5]

You kind of have to feel sorry for Jazz, actually. I mean, his brother's killed and, in his grief, he allies with his brother's killers, and he dies because of it.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Wedge009]

Uhhh, Dralthi, that reason doesn't give me any cause for grief. And I take the bit about Blair and Paladin being Pilgrims is from the movie, right?

 

[WildWeasel]

Since I haven't played that game in a while, my memory could be a bit faulty. Didn't Mynx die in the end? And didn't Blair promise her that he would get revenge on Jazz for her?

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Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

[This message has been edited by WildWeasel (edited October 20, 2000).]

 

[Dralthi5]

Well, Wedge, I didn't say it was heartwrenching or anything.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Shane]

Since I haven't played that game in a while, my memory could be a bit faulty. But didn't Mynx die in the end? And didn't Blair promise her that he would get revenge on Jazz for her?

Yes he got a transmission from her, and she said she had been exposed to a pretty good dose of radiation and was going to die (if I recall correctly) She did let Blair know Jazz had escaped, he was heading for the jump point and that she loved Blair. I've read enough comic books, though, that unless I see a body laid out, confirmed dead and then forever guarded in a transparent coffin, I wonder if someone in fiction is truly dead

I could see Mynx being able to survive if she was rescued in time and they had some way to treat her. Remeber the Concordia had to leave that area of space at the end of SO2, so the Kilrathi or someoelse, may have come by the remains of Ayers Rock and found her. Or she could have been lying about her condition.

As for the original idea of Jazz as a Pilgrim I had an interesting thought about this just before drifting off to sleep last night. I recalled reading LOAF's account of his trip to Austin to see WCM with Chris Reid. They mentioned they talked to CR (Chris Roberts, not Chris Reid, just in case that confused anyone) about the traitor subplot and why it was dropped from the movie. Roberts said he was glad, he would be able to have Jazz in the sequel. Seems as though CR was thinking along the lines of a Mandarin/Pilgrim connection. Could it be that the remians of the Pilgrims formed what we knew as the Mandarins. That might help explain why we know no mention of the Pilgrims in WC. It's still shaky for WC1 (especially with the movie and game overlap), but still... They might figure they would have a good position in the empire because they would have abilities that the Cats would appreciate, and in some ways they don't feel truly welcome by the rest humanity. I need to try to find the movie novels, though I doubt I'll have much time to read them.


[This message has been edited by Shane (edited September 05, 2000).]

 

[Dralthi5]

Roberts said he was glad, he would be able to have Jazz in the sequel.

Yeah, too bad he didn't know the movie would do so poorly at that point

.



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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Penguin]

Dralthi5: How can you feel sorry for that insidious wretch? He's a traitor plain and simple. Paladin said it best "We've all lost someone close. It does not make you special."

Wedge009: Blair & Paladin being Pilgrims is related in the WCM.

WildWeasel: That's right. Mynx died & Blair swore to avenge her.

Shane: If Chris Roberts did do a WCM sequel & base it on WC2 then he would have to include Jazz since Jazz plays an important part in WC2 & it's add ons - planting the bomb on the Concordia's flight deck, framing Stingray for the murder of the comms guy, indirectly responsible for Spirit's death, feeding info to the cats, stealing the Blair's flight disk that proved that stealth fighters really existed leading to Blair's 10yr back water tour, stealing a Morningstar, attempted murder of Angel, etc, etc.
If memory serves the Mandarins were a sect of humans who aided the Kilrathi in return for various rewards.
A Kilrathi/Pilgrim alliance seems unlikely considering that their last alliance (depicted in WCM) resulted in the destruction of a massive Kilrathi fleet. Further resistance to Confed by the Pilgrims led to a massive blockade of all Pilgrim enclaves (Pilgrim Stars). Also considering the nature of the Kilrathi pysche it's unlikely that the Pilgrims would be better off under the Kilrathi then with Confed. Keep in mind that the Kilrathi practise slavery and the Pilgrims, with their unique talents, would be primary candidates. Pilgrim Stars also implies that most Pilgrims chose to integrate back into mainstream humanity, though some continued to resist, with generally disastrous results.

 

[Wedge009]

Even if there is a movie sequel to come out, I would think any reference to Jazz would be very loose, who even said they had to base it on the Concordia? Then again, I haven't seen the movie, so I guess I should go back and hide in my little corner.

 

[Dogg]

I personally loved the film...as I'm sure many here did, but I don't think a sequal to the movie is in the works, thanks to the poor box-office showing and the critics tearing it a new one. But even if it was, the Jazz-aspect, as was mentioned, would be loosely-mentioned, if at all....

I, for one, would get a kick out of seeing that whole drama on screen....but alas...some things are not ment to be.

 

[Shane]

If you look in the March 1999 CIC archives, you'll find an article about LOAF and Chris meeting Chris Roberts. This is pulled from their narrative.

Roberts explained that the he was glad the traitor section had been removed, because it meant he could use the Jazz subplot if he did another movie.

This was at a premeiere party, so at that point they didn't know how it would do at the Box Office. Also considering how they changed a few game elements in the story, it wouldn't be hard for them to work Jazz in and tie him to the Pilgrims. I agree another movie is doubtful, even DTV.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited September 11, 2000).]