frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
You said two Converted destroyers... the converted class if memory serves was the Durango. Wouldn't that mean that there was a third converted destroyer? The BWS Durango?
BWS status
- Thread starter frostytheplebe
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Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Durango was the name of the heavy destroyer class, not a new name for the carrier conversion.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
Very well conceding that the UBW
We see the UBW launch two during the fighting, Speradon and the rush to Earth. We see Confed lauch two attacks on Intrepid, and the attack on Tyr which could have been what led to the UBW withdraw from Confed. The Confed was not entirely on the defenseive, and the attack on Tyr was all of the justifaction the UBW would need to pull out.
The Border Worlds caught someone carrying bio/nano weapons into their territory and arrested them. Confed then sends military forces to rescue the person arrested, retrieve the weapons, destroy the data the Border Worlds had on the weapons, and execute the personal that were studying the weapons. At that point it's pretty clear that Confed is not planning to fufill it's obligation to protect the Border Worlds so they naturally leave.
And is it even possible for someone to have dimplomatic immunity inside their own nation?
We see the UBW launch two during the fighting, Speradon and the rush to Earth. We see Confed lauch two attacks on Intrepid, and the attack on Tyr which could have been what led to the UBW withdraw from Confed. The Confed was not entirely on the defenseive, and the attack on Tyr was all of the justifaction the UBW would need to pull out.
The Border Worlds caught someone carrying bio/nano weapons into their territory and arrested them. Confed then sends military forces to rescue the person arrested, retrieve the weapons, destroy the data the Border Worlds had on the weapons, and execute the personal that were studying the weapons. At that point it's pretty clear that Confed is not planning to fufill it's obligation to protect the Border Worlds so they naturally leave.
And is it even possible for someone to have dimplomatic immunity inside their own nation?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I think you're confused about the story.
Everything that Blair et. al. were told about Brody was a lie created by Tolwyn's group to gain their assistance in kidnapping her so that she could finish developing his weapons. She was not accused of spying by the Union of Border Worlds (she was, in fact, a Border Worlds agent -- she was Eisen's original contact who arranged his defection to the Intrepid.)
That's correct, the Tyr series happens before the Union of Border Worlds has been formed; aside from being part of Tolwyn's plan, it's also unclear exactly what the attack means to the Tyrians (Tyrants?)
As soon as the Union comes to exist, though, they're violeting Confederate airspace (the cruisers)... and then they deploy their carrier into a Confederation system to cover the *defection* of a high profile Confederation officer (ultimately officers.) They're being manipulated, too, but they certainly aren't blameless (or some purely good force.)
Everything that Blair et. al. were told about Brody was a lie created by Tolwyn's group to gain their assistance in kidnapping her so that she could finish developing his weapons. She was not accused of spying by the Union of Border Worlds (she was, in fact, a Border Worlds agent -- she was Eisen's original contact who arranged his defection to the Intrepid.)
That's correct, the Tyr series happens before the Union of Border Worlds has been formed; aside from being part of Tolwyn's plan, it's also unclear exactly what the attack means to the Tyrians (Tyrants?)
As soon as the Union comes to exist, though, they're violeting Confederate airspace (the cruisers)... and then they deploy their carrier into a Confederation system to cover the *defection* of a high profile Confederation officer (ultimately officers.) They're being manipulated, too, but they certainly aren't blameless (or some purely good force.)
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
I thought that Eisen's contact was Intrepid's captain.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
No, he was the person who vouched for/reccomended Eisen -- Brody was his... what's the spy term? Handler?
Check out this e-mail archived from the WCIV PSX site: https://www.wcnews.com/secret.htm
Check out this e-mail archived from the WCIV PSX site: https://www.wcnews.com/secret.htm
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Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
As LOAF said he vouched for him, as well as being a friend of Eisen. He mentions as much in both the novel and game.
Also great job responding to no one. It was great to see you break down your previous post to make sense...oh wait.
Kyle Maverick
Rear Admiral
Going back to the bit about the Intrepid ending up in Confed hands, someone asked why it would have ships the Border Worlds were flying on board, he's one thought:
If Confed was going to be policing the UBW, the Union might not have been the only groups flying those ships, the Black Lance were able to get hold of them, so pirate groups probably could too. A good way to train pilots to learn a ships weaknesses would be to get pilots to fly the ships themselves.
Also I thought that it was a joint training scheme on the Intrepid, but as has been pointed out, everything we say is just speculation and we'll probably never find out the real answer
If Confed was going to be policing the UBW, the Union might not have been the only groups flying those ships, the Black Lance were able to get hold of them, so pirate groups probably could too. A good way to train pilots to learn a ships weaknesses would be to get pilots to fly the ships themselves.
Also I thought that it was a joint training scheme on the Intrepid, but as has been pointed out, everything we say is just speculation and we'll probably never find out the real answer
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Yes, it's important to note that ships seen in Wing Commander IV can't really be *original* Border Worlds fighters -- the Union of Border Worlds comes into being during the course of Wing Commander IV, so it can't have been designing new fighter craft.
The problem is just that we don't know their stories -- who *did* design the Vindicator, Avenger and Banshee? Are they spit-and-glue fighters from years and years ago? Second-string militia fighters built specifically to serve with planetary squadrons? A mix of those concepts? Things I'm not even thinking about right now (converted patrol ships, trainers, etc., etc.)?
But yes, at the end of the day we just don't know the answer to many of these questions -- but then one of the tricks to settling your mind about some of these things is just learning that the process of knowing which questions still need answering can be just as satisfying as filling in *all* the blanks.
(I would bet that we could get the real answer -- or at least a retcon -- someday...)
The problem is just that we don't know their stories -- who *did* design the Vindicator, Avenger and Banshee? Are they spit-and-glue fighters from years and years ago? Second-string militia fighters built specifically to serve with planetary squadrons? A mix of those concepts? Things I'm not even thinking about right now (converted patrol ships, trainers, etc., etc.)?
But yes, at the end of the day we just don't know the answer to many of these questions -- but then one of the tricks to settling your mind about some of these things is just learning that the process of knowing which questions still need answering can be just as satisfying as filling in *all* the blanks.
(I would bet that we could get the real answer -- or at least a retcon -- someday...)
Sharpshooter
Rear Admiral
Most importantly, why didn't the Confederation use them [more often]? The Banshee and the Vindicator are pretty good... They even seem to outclass some Confed ships.
frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
I always thought the Avenger was a modified Confed shuttle. I seem to recall seeing the design... I think it was in the Academy TV series, I don't remember. But I thought that was where the Avenger came from. It makes sense as I always thought the damn thing's movements were only slightly better then a shuttle.
Why would they? Just look at the banshee. The thing is out of date and falling apart. I seem to remember an excerpt from the novel describing the first time Blair launched on one of these thing. It was described as old and pretty much falling apart. I'd be more willing to believe it was a scratch build possibly from a mix of fighters, perhaps parts of the Rapier I (as previously suggested), as well as stuff from other fighters.
Really the only enigma I see is the Vindi. It has superior weaponry, I love the Tach/Laser combo, and has a rear turret (a feature very uncommon on medium fighters). As far as I'm concerned its really one of the few true multirole fighters we see in WC.
The thing thats a real mystery to me is if there is a real shortage of fighters, then why don't we see more use of the wing of Hellcat Vs that Blair brought when he defected.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
We don't know for sure - the pirates at Tortuga (in "The Last One Left") seem to be using an Avenger as a shuttle or a boarding craft... but that's not necessarily it's original purpose (it does tell us that it's fairly old, though..)
I don't think such an excerpt exists -- the 'holy trinity' of mysterious Border Worlds fighters doesn't show up in the novel at all.
In the novelization Blair arrives on the Intrepid in a Thunderbolt... and it's ultimately too damaged to keep flying.
frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
Been a while since i read that book. I do remember the Tbolt... they should have been able to put the guns on it to good use. Though i was refering to the game.
Sharpshooter
Rear Admiral
Gameplay-wise, I personally think WC4 doesn't do a very good job of making the BW fighters look bad. I'll take a Banshee over a Hellcat anytime. Even the Avenger has its good points (like the ultra-powerful guns). If Confed used junk like the Epee or the Scimitar during the Kilrathi war, then I can't see why we don't get to see the BW ships fighting the Kilrathi (actually I can guess - it's probably an oversight, like the Johann's Rapiers).
Then again, not all ships are lucky enough to have a Pliers.
Then again, not all ships are lucky enough to have a Pliers.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
Okay but that brings up some new questions.
1: The BW forces in the novel mention arresting her for having bio-weapons. Why did she have them or did Tolwyn have them planted so that she would be arrested and easier to find?
2: Why would Tolwyn want to let an enemy agent anywhere near the bio-convergence weapon development project?
3: If she was critical enough to the project for Tolwyn to go through all that trouble to get her why didn't she just sabotage the bio-convergence weapons and cripple Tolwyn's plans?
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