Yeah. But I experienced myself often enough how little and seemingly unimportant changes can throw a mission off-balance, and part in the back of my head fears that the normal version without all that "fancy" stuff doesn't get as much attention as the other version and might end up screwy.
Buyable Ships
- Thread starter Ghost
- Start date
MamiyaOtaru
Spaceman
It would behoove you not to throw around such comments every time a user makes a suggestion you don't like.Lynx said:
Certain types of comments are counterproductive. Comments like "if they do this, it's a ripoff with WC ships," "do this or I won't play," "if you leave this as is, you can't make this other change," or "you can't call it a remake if you do this." My initial reactions to such statements are "I'm sorry you think so, go yell at Saga for using WC ships" "fine," "the hell I can't," and "then I'll change the bloody name and add a whole bunch of crap and if you want a bolt for bolt privateer copy, make it yourself"
I can't really fault people for making them, I've said things like that to coders of other open source software on many occasions. The thing is, it's never worked. And having made such comments myself, the manipulative intent behind them is immediately obvious and in a rather hypocritical way it gets me pretty steamed.
If you are sitting there thinking to yourself "he hasn't done what I wanted yet, now I will make a logical argument that they can't ignore and will force them to do things as I wish because they are obviously incapable of thinking straight themselves" or "I'll convince them to do it my way by claiming that otherwise their project isn't a real fan project, just a ripoff," pause for a moment, realize how that will come across, and try to make your point some other way.
And I shall try to take my own advice and quit being bitter at Stephan Binner for changes he's made to Konqueror. Maybe I'll try being glad he took the time to work on it at all, especially since I always just grab the code and reverse all the changes I don't like. Yay open source.
Men, we don't need to cut our thoats each others.
:
The point is: we have TWO Privateer.
:
Yes, two: the "standard" and the "enhanced" one.
::O
The "standard" Privateer is standard, thus untouchable, even for me.
When I play at the "standard" Privateer I want to see ALL the things that were present in the Old Privateer.
Not one little insignificant object more, not one little insignificant object less.
Not to mention wingmen, wings of 20 Gothri, sectors outside Gemini and so on.
But the "enhanced" Privateer it's a different matter...
And when I say "different" I mean DIFFERENT.
4 "good" ships: Centurion, Galaxy, Orion, Tarsus...
4 "evil" ships: Dralthi, Gothri, Kamekh, Talon...
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooring!
No variety!
Is it possible that the kilrathi, in the whole galaxy, uses only 3 types of ships (Dralthi, Gothri, Kamekh)?
I don't think so.
Is it possible that the human military forces, in the whole galaxy, uses only 5 types of ships (Talon, Stiletto, Gladius, Broadsword, Paradigm)?
I don't think so.
Is it possible that the human civilian "forces", in the whole galaxy, uses only 6 types of ships (Centurion, Demon, Drayman, Galaxy, Orion, Tarsus)?
I don't think so.
The point is that the Wing Commander Saga, except for Privateer, is a saga centered in the military aspect of the Human-Kilrathi conflict, not a saga centered in the trade routes across the humans sectors, not a saga centered in the exploration (and maybe exploitation) of unknown sectors, not a saga centered in bounty-hunter pursuits.
So in the Wing Commander Saga are barely present all the little and big "things" of the civilian universe.
I think that this "void" should be filled in the "enhanced" version...
I think.
And you?
:
The point is: we have TWO Privateer.
:
Yes, two: the "standard" and the "enhanced" one.
::O
The "standard" Privateer is standard, thus untouchable, even for me.
When I play at the "standard" Privateer I want to see ALL the things that were present in the Old Privateer.
Not one little insignificant object more, not one little insignificant object less.
Not to mention wingmen, wings of 20 Gothri, sectors outside Gemini and so on.
But the "enhanced" Privateer it's a different matter...
And when I say "different" I mean DIFFERENT.
4 "good" ships: Centurion, Galaxy, Orion, Tarsus...
4 "evil" ships: Dralthi, Gothri, Kamekh, Talon...
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooring!
No variety!
Is it possible that the kilrathi, in the whole galaxy, uses only 3 types of ships (Dralthi, Gothri, Kamekh)?
I don't think so.
Is it possible that the human military forces, in the whole galaxy, uses only 5 types of ships (Talon, Stiletto, Gladius, Broadsword, Paradigm)?
I don't think so.
Is it possible that the human civilian "forces", in the whole galaxy, uses only 6 types of ships (Centurion, Demon, Drayman, Galaxy, Orion, Tarsus)?
I don't think so.
The point is that the Wing Commander Saga, except for Privateer, is a saga centered in the military aspect of the Human-Kilrathi conflict, not a saga centered in the trade routes across the humans sectors, not a saga centered in the exploration (and maybe exploitation) of unknown sectors, not a saga centered in bounty-hunter pursuits.
So in the Wing Commander Saga are barely present all the little and big "things" of the civilian universe.
I think that this "void" should be filled in the "enhanced" version...
I think.
And you?
@ilricca: I'd assumed that that was what the WC Universe Port is gonna be. Everything in WC Universe. Could just be me though.
-Chemus, FanBoy of Doom! "or was that anti-Fanboy of DOOM! ?, Pasta/Antipasta...?"
-Chemus, FanBoy of Doom! "or was that anti-Fanboy of DOOM! ?, Pasta/Antipasta...?"
I've seen the pictures of the ships present in the Ship Pack 0.3...
A truly impressive work!
With the Ship Pack 0.3 two third of my problems about the ships are, simply, history.
There is, anyway, the "civilian ships" problem...
I wonder: is this a "real" problem, or is a problem only in my mind?
In the novels about WC Saga there is something like passenger ships, various type of cargo ship, private yacht, nefarious pirate & bounty hunter ships or not?
A truly impressive work!
With the Ship Pack 0.3 two third of my problems about the ships are, simply, history.
There is, anyway, the "civilian ships" problem...
I wonder: is this a "real" problem, or is a problem only in my mind?
In the novels about WC Saga there is something like passenger ships, various type of cargo ship, private yacht, nefarious pirate & bounty hunter ships or not?
Aye, I dunno what devil drove me to type that thing earlier...I just want to make sure that the classic version doesn't get negelected in favour of the spruced up version, which my require some effort and possibly some changed mission files and so on because of the balancing issiues.
And since this is a public discussion I just feel the urge to post when someone posts an outlandish suggestion, so have mercy on me.
You are right since we've seen enough other ships in WC Galaxy, *but* the Gemini sector isn't the entire WC Galaxy but just a puny backwater sector.
Variety isn't everything. Have you played Freelancer? It has loads of buyable ships, but they all feel the same. There was no motivation to buy a new one since sans a few gun mounts more or less they barely were different. You can't make each ship feel unique if there are too much of them.
And with those wings of 20 Gothri encountered I'd rather change the game to have encounters with less enemies than to use that as excuse for putting in more powerful ships.
And since this is a public discussion I just feel the urge to post when someone posts an outlandish suggestion, so have mercy on me.
ilricca said:
You are right since we've seen enough other ships in WC Galaxy, *but* the Gemini sector isn't the entire WC Galaxy but just a puny backwater sector.
Variety isn't everything. Have you played Freelancer? It has loads of buyable ships, but they all feel the same. There was no motivation to buy a new one since sans a few gun mounts more or less they barely were different. You can't make each ship feel unique if there are too much of them.
And with those wings of 20 Gothri encountered I'd rather change the game to have encounters with less enemies than to use that as excuse for putting in more powerful ships.
Maj.Striker
Swabbie
Banned
Is it possible that the Kilrathi/Confed only 4-5 different types of ships? Actually it is very possible. US Airforce uses only two fighter classes for all intensive purposes. Before you contradict me, let me explain.
The F5 is used almost entirely for training purposes...it is not and has never really been a frontlines fightercraft. The F4 is retired...having died a quick death after its lackluster performance in Vietnam. The F17 was merely a prototype that eventually evolved into the F-18 (used primarily in the Navy). The F21 is an Israeli developed fighter that is listed in the USAF merely because a small shipment was delivered to the US to be used in dissimiliar fighter training...serving a role similar to the F5.
What does that leave us with? The primary fighters of the Air force are the F-15 and the F-16. Wait! What about the F-22? The F22 is just now being produced in larger numbers, the first squadron was recently delivered to the USAF only a month or so ago. With the arrival of this F-22 the F15 is being replaced. (Complete replacement is tentatively scheduled for 2013). The F22, to my knowledge, has not seen any "real" fighting action to date. The only two active "battle tested" fighters in service today are the F-15 and the F-16. The next generation of fighters (F23,F35) have yet to advance beyond the prototype stage. Of course there are bombers but even the number of those are limited. It seems unlikely to me that Confed would be that much different from modern times... if the USAF only has two active fighter classes, Confed probably wouldn't have 10 or 12.
Now of course you have the navy which uses a different array of fighters altogether but for good reasoning. To be honest , I think we have a lot of fighters that are serving dual purposes and we could save a great deal of money if we consolidated and standardized our air power. It surprises me that we haven't done so already.
The F5 is used almost entirely for training purposes...it is not and has never really been a frontlines fightercraft. The F4 is retired...having died a quick death after its lackluster performance in Vietnam. The F17 was merely a prototype that eventually evolved into the F-18 (used primarily in the Navy). The F21 is an Israeli developed fighter that is listed in the USAF merely because a small shipment was delivered to the US to be used in dissimiliar fighter training...serving a role similar to the F5.
What does that leave us with? The primary fighters of the Air force are the F-15 and the F-16. Wait! What about the F-22? The F22 is just now being produced in larger numbers, the first squadron was recently delivered to the USAF only a month or so ago. With the arrival of this F-22 the F15 is being replaced. (Complete replacement is tentatively scheduled for 2013). The F22, to my knowledge, has not seen any "real" fighting action to date. The only two active "battle tested" fighters in service today are the F-15 and the F-16. The next generation of fighters (F23,F35) have yet to advance beyond the prototype stage. Of course there are bombers but even the number of those are limited. It seems unlikely to me that Confed would be that much different from modern times... if the USAF only has two active fighter classes, Confed probably wouldn't have 10 or 12.
Now of course you have the navy which uses a different array of fighters altogether but for good reasoning. To be honest , I think we have a lot of fighters that are serving dual purposes and we could save a great deal of money if we consolidated and standardized our air power. It surprises me that we haven't done so already.
@Lynx:
:
For the variety: right. It isn't everything.
And yes, I've played Freelancer.
(And I enjoy all the mods that increases the variety...Sorry!).
I can write pages and pages about the problems of Freelancer, but not here and not now.
But variety is a good bait: it's an incentive to get more credits, to go far and wide.
Maybe it's my problem, I am sure, but when I've bought the Galaxy, the Orion, the Centurion, I asked myself: "And now? I have all the ships, fully equipped... What can I do?"
Nothing, there is nothing to do, because I have all that Privateer can offer.
The same, of course, with 2.000.000 different ships.
But 2.000.000 different ships requires many many many hours of playing, 3 ships...
In short: variety = longevity.
Ok!
:
For the variety: right. It isn't everything.
And yes, I've played Freelancer.
(And I enjoy all the mods that increases the variety...Sorry!).
I can write pages and pages about the problems of Freelancer, but not here and not now.
But variety is a good bait: it's an incentive to get more credits, to go far and wide.
Maybe it's my problem, I am sure, but when I've bought the Galaxy, the Orion, the Centurion, I asked myself: "And now? I have all the ships, fully equipped... What can I do?"
Nothing, there is nothing to do, because I have all that Privateer can offer.
The same, of course, with 2.000.000 different ships.
But 2.000.000 different ships requires many many many hours of playing, 3 ships...
In short: variety = longevity.
I would just like to point out to those saying that privateers can't fly military ships...
during the War of 1812 and the Revolutionary War, US privateers used vessels and cannon EXACTLY similar to what the the US Navy was using. The difference was that privateers carried large crews so that they could take ships by boarding and then sail them home as prizes, and privateers equipped cannon better suited for disabling or crippling a target, like long 9 pounders. The navy preferred their big 36 pound carronades, which would blast large holes in anything at short range.
Also, privateers from Baltimore (the 'Baltimore Clippers' ) were FASTER than anything the navies of the war had.
The only difference between a privateer and a naval warship is that the privateer is privately owned and out to make a buck.
So it shouldn't be a big deal in priv-remake to be able to fly military-grade ships.
during the War of 1812 and the Revolutionary War, US privateers used vessels and cannon EXACTLY similar to what the the US Navy was using. The difference was that privateers carried large crews so that they could take ships by boarding and then sail them home as prizes, and privateers equipped cannon better suited for disabling or crippling a target, like long 9 pounders. The navy preferred their big 36 pound carronades, which would blast large holes in anything at short range.
Also, privateers from Baltimore (the 'Baltimore Clippers' ) were FASTER than anything the navies of the war had.
The only difference between a privateer and a naval warship is that the privateer is privately owned and out to make a buck.
So it shouldn't be a big deal in priv-remake to be able to fly military-grade ships.
Aron Figaro
Spaceman
Guys! Guys! CHILL!
Most ships in the Gemini sector should probably be buyable or OBTAINABLE. Here are some examples:
Stilletto: Obtainable only through secondary plot mission. Fly a few special ops missions for Confed and they'll give ya one.
Gladius: Possibly the same as the Stilletto.
Talon: This should probably be buyable, at the very least buyable at pirate bases, since they seem to have the bloody things in unlimited quantities.
Demon: Make this one buyable for sure.
Drayman: Somewhere out there we should be able to buy one of these, but it'd cost a huge pile of creds for obvious reasons. Maybe save this for Universe, but I think it's decently viable now.
Errant: YES YES YES! Make it highly modifiable with a decent sized cargo hold, not quite a Galaxy but more like a super-Tarsus. Middle of the road, but a little slow.
Tarsus: Might as well make this buyable somewhere.
Other Confed Fighters: Maybe in certain systems once Universe comes out there can be plot missions to obtain other Confed fighters. There could also be plot missions to STEAL Confed fighters, as the Pirates did in Standoff. Mmm...Sabres...
Really Big Things: These would most likely be in the "old salvage, scrape it together" category. I could see, though a few plot events randomly seeded or something, a Privateer ending up with an old Venture-class Corvette. IIRC they were long out of service at that point, so it would be legitimate. It might help for those 18-20-ship cat-killing missions, too - or at least give those Gothri something to use their torpedoes on.
Most ships in the Gemini sector should probably be buyable or OBTAINABLE. Here are some examples:
Stilletto: Obtainable only through secondary plot mission. Fly a few special ops missions for Confed and they'll give ya one.
Gladius: Possibly the same as the Stilletto.
Talon: This should probably be buyable, at the very least buyable at pirate bases, since they seem to have the bloody things in unlimited quantities.
Demon: Make this one buyable for sure.
Drayman: Somewhere out there we should be able to buy one of these, but it'd cost a huge pile of creds for obvious reasons. Maybe save this for Universe, but I think it's decently viable now.
Errant: YES YES YES! Make it highly modifiable with a decent sized cargo hold, not quite a Galaxy but more like a super-Tarsus. Middle of the road, but a little slow.
Tarsus: Might as well make this buyable somewhere.
Other Confed Fighters: Maybe in certain systems once Universe comes out there can be plot missions to obtain other Confed fighters. There could also be plot missions to STEAL Confed fighters, as the Pirates did in Standoff. Mmm...Sabres...
Really Big Things: These would most likely be in the "old salvage, scrape it together" category. I could see, though a few plot events randomly seeded or something, a Privateer ending up with an old Venture-class Corvette. IIRC they were long out of service at that point, so it would be legitimate. It might help for those 18-20-ship cat-killing missions, too - or at least give those Gothri something to use their torpedoes on.
U
Unregistered
Guest
Just thought that I would drop in a couple of comments. Love the game btw regardless of the number of ships in it. Civilian companies make the ships not the military. Anyone could go to a ship builders at the moment and ask for a war ship to be built. Armaments would be a different matter. In fact in both WW1 and 2 civilian ships were armed and used, such as the Lucitania (although it was decommisioned when sunk) and the Jarvis Bay which famously opposed the Scharnhorst. Also during the Napoleonic wars there was what was called a prize court which auctioned off captured ships. Often war ships that were badly damaged would be bought by individuals rather than the crown as they would cost too much to repair, a luxury that private individuals didn't care about.
We are also talking about a legal profession in the WC world, not an illegal one so there is no reason that companys would not fulfill the demand for private fighter ships or conversion kits for ordinary ships. Already in the WC world their are armed turrents on civillian ships so it would not be unfeasible to create civilian 'capital' ships using jury rigged fighter armaments with much larger generators to provide more power. Also in Holding The Line, which is not official by any means I know (although very good, anone know where I can find the last chapters there missing from the site) the Tanfen corp has fighters and merchants converted to carry them, is this based on the books?
Lastly I am not sure that Pirates could not raid scrap yards for de-commisioned ships and tow them away. The yards are probably not well armed and space is pretty big to hide in.
Just some thought and keep up the good work. Their could be a traditional version and an extended one that allowed people to build up facilities etc such as X does. I know it would be a bit of a dream but maybe one day.
Nick
We are also talking about a legal profession in the WC world, not an illegal one so there is no reason that companys would not fulfill the demand for private fighter ships or conversion kits for ordinary ships. Already in the WC world their are armed turrents on civillian ships so it would not be unfeasible to create civilian 'capital' ships using jury rigged fighter armaments with much larger generators to provide more power. Also in Holding The Line, which is not official by any means I know (although very good, anone know where I can find the last chapters there missing from the site) the Tanfen corp has fighters and merchants converted to carry them, is this based on the books?
Lastly I am not sure that Pirates could not raid scrap yards for de-commisioned ships and tow them away. The yards are probably not well armed and space is pretty big to hide in.
Just some thought and keep up the good work. Their could be a traditional version and an extended one that allowed people to build up facilities etc such as X does. I know it would be a bit of a dream but maybe one day.
Nick