Bush?

[Quarto]

Oh, no, of course not. It's all true. All Palestinians just want to blow themselves up. That's the ultimate aim in life for any Palestinian. They're happy to take a few Israelis with them, but it doesn't matter that much to them, since it's the exploding that really makes them happy. Oh, and they're taught to use explosives even before they learn to walk.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Now I know you're just being silly. I thought that they can't compete with the military of Israel, and so they are forced to these measures and have to wage war on innocent people, however wrong that may be.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
Now I know you're just being silly. I thought that they can't compete with the military of Israel, and so they are forced to these measures and have to wage war on innocent people, however wrong that may be.

What you are saying here, exactaly? Do you think it's Terrorism? Justifiable? Acceptable?

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

What I'm saying is what I thought the situation is in Israel and Palastine. I'm not a great big expert on the topic, so correct me if I'm wrong. But I feel that suicide bombings on innocent people, no matter what, is unjustifiable and unacceptable, and yes it could probably be called terrorism as well, if you want to put it in the sense that these are attacks intended to bend people to one's will.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
What I'm saying is what I thought the situation is in Israel and Palastine. I'm not a great big expert on the topic, so correct me if I'm wrong. But I feel that suicide bombings on innocent people, no matter what, is unjustifiable and unacceptable, and yes it could probably be called terrorism as well, if you want to put it in the sense that these are attacks intended to bend people to one's will.

So by your opinion they can be called terrorism in that sense. A contrario sensu, then, in which sense suicide bombing against innocent civilians cannot be called terrorism.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Um sorry. Just run that by me again.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
Now I know you're just being silly. I thought that they can't compete with the military of Israel, and so they are forced to these measures and have to wage war on innocent people, however wrong that may be.

Not silly - sarcastic, which makes a world of difference. My point was simply that your claim is a fairy tale. Yes, there are suicide bombers. And yes, undoubtedly, there are some people in Palestine who try to persuade children that it's glorious and honourable to blow yourself up to kill enemies. But no, they don't buy that. 99.99% of them obviously do not believe suicide bombing is the answer - if they did, you'd be getting several thousand suicide bombings a day, instead of one or two per week.

This does not, of course, alter the fact that some people (like, a few hundred, maybe a thousand or two, out of more than a million) do choose to become suicide bombers (although even for them, I would argue that a solid dose of despair is required before they believe that suicide will improve their (after)lives). But, when you are dealing with such a small-scale phenomenon, it's ridiculous to make sweeping conclusions about the society where it arose. The only reason we even notice suicide bombings is because they have more victims than just the suicidant (suicidee?).

You might as well talk about how Australians believe that the only way to absolve yourself of failure is to commit suicide. Percentage-wise, suicides in Australia are probably a more significant phenomenon than suicide bombings in Israel and Palestine.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
Um sorry. Just run that by me again.

Well, try to read or remember what you have written yourself. Let me quote again, because scrolling down seems too much of a challenge.

yes it could probably be called terrorism as well, if you want to put it in the sense that these are attacks intended to bend people to one's will.

So it probably could (i.e., not necessarily, a possibility) be called terrorism as well (i.e., it must have other names), if things are put in that sense (i.e., under a different perspective, it would not be called terrorism).

So, please explain under what perspective it would not be called terrorism. Also, explain the other classifications you'd give suicidal bombing of innocent civilians as well. Everything is unequivocally implied by your message, unless you of course changed your mind and wish to retract.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Quarto
You might as well talk about how Australians believe that the only way to absolve yourself of failure is to commit suicide. Percentage-wise, suicides in Australia are probably a more significant phenomenon than suicide bombings in Israel and Palestine.

Really? I had no idea. How strange.

 

[Quarto]

Oh, don't draw any conclusions about Australia from what I said . I used it as an example because that's where both me and Phillip live, but in general, this would apply to almost any country.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Originally posted by Quarto
Not silly - sarcastic, which makes a world of difference. My point was simply that your claim is a fairy tale. Yes, there are suicide bombers. And yes, undoubtedly, there are some people in Palestine who try to persuade children that it's glorious and honourable to blow yourself up to kill enemies.

--snip.

Right, I get what you're saying. Do you think maybe that, not all Palastinions but the ones who do this at least, believe what I said before?

Originally posted by Delance
Well, try to read or remember what you have written yourself. Let me quote again, because scrolling down seems too much of a challenge.

Well, if Palastine are trying to make the Israelis live in fear, or are trying to bend them to their demands and such, then I'd call it terrorism. If it is revenge for something the Israelis have, I could be right on it being the reason for all the problems I'm not sure, then...I don't know. I suppose the Israelis would call it terrorism but I'm not really sure how to class that one.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
Right, I get what you're saying. Do you think maybe that, not all Palastinions but the ones who do this at least, believe what I said before?

That it's a great honour to die fighting Israel? Yeah, there's bound to be a few people who think that. I mean, suicide bombers are more than merely suicidal. Just don't talk about it as though it was something believed by Palestinians in general.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

No. If I did say that then I retract the statement. What I meant to say is that those who do believe what these suicide bombers believe probably make their kids believe that it's a great honor to die for Palastine or what they believe in. When I said how it's the same thing in Palastine when I said how some children of terrorists would gladly take up terrorism themselve's (Binladen's recruitment efforts for children would have probably had something to do with that), I wasn't making an indictment of the whole country. Just the people who commit these acts.

 

[Aries]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
When I said how it's the same thing in Palastine when I said how some children of terrorists would gladly take up terrorism themselve's (Binladen's recruitment efforts for children would have probably had something to do with that

not to mention Saddam giving $10,000 (i think that was the amount) to the families of suicide bombers

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Did he just? I wish he'd give me that much so I can do something about my brittle ankles.

 

[Aries]

yeah, it's just one more reason to nail saddam. we get him, there might be a decline in suicide bombings, since their families won't get money (at least from him)

 

[junior]

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
Did he just? I wish he'd give me that much so I can do something about my brittle ankles.

Its been public knowledge for quite a while. I think there are other sources that also provide a form of "life insurance" for the families of suicide bombers, but Saddam's chunk of change is the biggest.

 

[redwolf]

Just going back on the Palestinian question, the real worry I have, is that there are a lot who want to fight and die.

For example, I had a discussion with a "Palestinian" girl midway through 2001. I was taking a moderate pro-West stance in my discussion and her, and her left wing friends all went to town on me. I was trying to defend the West and America (some people may find this a bit odd, considering my anti-war stance) but these people would have none of it.

The final straw came when I asked a hypothetical question. "If there was a war between Palestine and Australia, who would you fight for?" Her reply was that she would without a doubt fight for Palestine. I was shocked. I asked why would she do such a thing considering she had lived in Australia all her life and was an Australian citizen. She responded that she will always be a Palestinian.

Truly shocked, I told her that in Palestine, they wouldn't want her back. She's not Palestinian to them. She dresses and thinks like a Westerner. However, I told her to go back there if she loved it so much. Since then I have had a completely different view of Palestinians. I was amazed at this fanaticism.

I, like her, have parents from a different nation. My father was born in Italy and my mother had German parents. Regardless, I am not Italian nor German, I am Australian and would not even consider this girl's course of action.

It pains me to say it, I do believe that Palestinians are trouble. I do believe in a state for them, but they are too fanatic for my liking and indeed world security. Even the Jordanians (a fellow Arab nation) are worried. There are now more Palestinians in Jordan than there are Jordanians!

And no, for the hawks on this message board, this does not defeat my argument re Iraq. To me, Hussein is only supporting Palestinians to gain credibility and support from Arab countries.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by redwolf
Truly shocked, I told her that in Palestine, they wouldn't want her back. She's not Palestinian to them. She dresses and thinks like a Westerner. However, I told her to go back there if she loved it so much. Since then I have had a completely different view of Palestinians. I was amazed at this fanaticism.

I, like her, have parents from a different nation. My father was born in Italy and my mother had German parents. Regardless, I am not Italian nor German, I am Australian and would not even consider this girl's course of action.

Any people living in a foreign land will cling to their culture and national identity for as long as it takes (paradoxically) for them to be fully accepted. Your parents had it easy - aside from a few verbal jabs your father would have received for being a "wog", they could be absorbed into Australian society very rapidly. Indeed, the fact that each of your parents comes from a different country, it's not surprising that you identify yourself as Australian.

On the other hand, people who do not have the comfort of fitting in easily, and people who do not necessarily need to fit in completely - that means pretty much any families where both parents belong to the same culture - will retain their cultural and national identies for longer. This isn't some weird Palestian fanticism - it's a universally human trait. If you went to live in the Middle East, your children would be fanatically Australian (unless you married a local, of course). This could be seen at any time in history. The British who lived in India were usually more nationalistic than those who lived in Britain. The Russian Jews who migrated to Israel now identify themselves as Russian immigrants first, and Jews second. Heck, studying here in Australia, I tend to think a hell of a lot more about what it means to be Polish than I ever did while living in Poland.

The paradox, of course, is what you said - if she went back to Palestine (well, hmm, bad example, since she can't go back to a place that doesn't exist), she wouldn't be accepted. A Lebanese friend of mine (who, like you, is a second-generation Australian and who, living here, is always keen to highlight his Lebanese origins) told me that when he visited Lebanon, he identified himself as being Australian. Whenever I go home to Poland, I feel completely out of place too. This Palestinian friend of yours, if she had a Palestine to go back to, would claim that she's Australian.

It pains me to say it, I do believe that Palestinians are trouble. I do believe in a state for them, but they are too fanatic for my liking and indeed world security. Even the Jordanians (a fellow Arab nation) are worried. There are now more Palestinians in Jordan than there are Jordanians!

OH MY GOD THEY'RE REPRODUCING KILL THEM ALL!

 

[steampunk]

Originally posted by Quarto
Any people living in a foreign land will cling to their culture and national identity for as long as it takes (paradoxically) for them to be fully accepted. Your parents had it easy - aside from a few verbal jabs your father would have received for being a "wog", they could be absorbed into Australian society very rapidly. Indeed, the fact that each of your parents comes from a different country, it's not surprising that you identify yourself as Australian.

I think the trick is to live in so many different countries that you don't identify with anything. Like me I'm a citizen of the world!