Bush Space Plan

[GeeBot]

Actually, I think most gamers have heard about John Carmack and his Armadillo Aerospace adventure, at least in the beginning. I haven't been following it much, because I'm just waiting to see who makes the dramatic first gesture. Besides, yeah, my money is on the Rutans.

As for space exploration being unprofitable, I'm totally in agreement with you, Dom. It's going to be highly profitable, but I think private industry is largely waiting on the government to subsidize the development of technology to make it cheap enough.

To Bush's credit, he mentioned possible resources in space which would boggle our imaginations, although I think he meant in a way more like Helium-3: new, exotic resources. But there are tremendous quantities of traditional resources in space, like precious metals and the like. I wish he had mentioned something along the lines of that. Well, we'll see when the planning commission report comes back.

 

[Ein-7919]

But while the space funding continues, I would suggest you check out a Reparations site , I'm sure you'll find yet another reason to not support the NASA space budget

Actually, I fully endorse the NASA budget and would rather see our defense budget sacrificed for the NASA budget. My only problem is that manned space exploration is, at this time (and in the immediate future), impractical. Future technology research, robotic exploration projects, and the like DO need to be furthered. But, as long as we hold certain aspects of the nation's budget in priority (national security and sovereignty), the advances we will make in pure science research will be slowed to a trickle (because it has little to no immediate practical value).

Heck, if I really did not want space exploration to be furthered (which would essentially mean that I have no interest in space) why would I have played all the WC games so zealously? Why would I be so interested in the Homeworld games, Macross anime, Alien movies/games? Why oh why would I consider Contact to be on the top of my list of favorite movies (if not my favorite movie period)? I can tell you it's not just for the stories. But rather, for the grand worlds that said games/anime present. Space is grand, and it does need to be researched. Manned? At this stage in human history, no. Rather, probes and unmanned planetary rovers and the like should be utilized to their fullest. After we have gotten past the chemical rocket propulsion system as the primary thrust mechanism should manned, inter-planetary exploration be considered. This is because of the inherent limitations of chemical propellant. I want space exploration to be continued (furthered if possible)...so don't say I'm a political nay-sayer who's hiding behind rhetoric my true feeling of "Space is out there and we don't need to go there." So, no psych...do not make such a claim about me by my 3 posts on this thread.

 

[Dundradal]

When the country is in doubt and election years almost out, why not send a man to the moon! With all the issues we have on earth, we need not throw money away at space. It's nice to explore, yes. But when people can't sleep in a warm bed and eat good food then we have a problem....No Bush in '04

 

[Bob McDob]

When the country is in doubt and election years almost out, why not send a man to the moon! With all the issues we have on earth, we need not throw money away at space. It's nice to explore, yes. But when people can't sleep in a warm bed and eat good food then we have a problem....No Bush in '04

Yes, we all know how the US is in anarchy and half the population is homeless - oh, wait.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

When the country is in doubt and election years almost out, why not send a man to the moon! With all the issues we have on earth, we need not throw money away at space. It's nice to explore, yes. But when people can't sleep in a warm bed and eat good food then we have a problem....No Bush in '04

That doesn't begin to be how taxes work.

Edit: Here's a nice essay on the subject written by one of the Rocket Team members during the Apollo program: http://www.meaus.com/articles/whyExplore.html

 

[Delance]

That doesn't begin to be how taxes work.

I don't think logic and reason are going to do much good about that kind of argument, because it has more to do with politics than with any merits of the space program (or logic, or taxes). But nice info!

Some people will always disagree with the US (or Bush, or whatever) regardless of circumstances.

 

[psych]

Why go to space? Because it’s next. For we came out of the cave, and we looked over the hill, and we saw fire. And we crossed the ocean, and we pioneered the West, and we took to the sky. The history of man is hung on the timeline of exploration, and this is what’s next.

(and no, I didn't come up with this quote)

 

[Darth AYBABTU]

Greetings! I'm a long-time WC fan who has recently started revisiting his WC past. Along the way, I've been looking in on the CIC main page from time to time. I saw the link to this thread there, and I decided to take a peek.

I've been active in a couple of forums on the internet for some time now, and there has been one constant: any thread mentioning George W. Bush, and in many cases even the mere mention of America, will ultimately devolve into a raging flame war full of idiocy from all parties. I was literally stunned to see that there has virtually been no politics at all (except for the "No Bush" silliness within the last couple of posts) in this thread. The discussion has focused on the merits and potential of the proposal. It is refreshing. It doesn't seem to be because you're all conservatives or spokespeople for the GOP. It just seems that you're all capable of reasonable discussion of matters on which you all may not agree.

Anyway, I support the plan. I've been wanting someone to say this and mean it for years. In my lifetime, no human has set foot on any world other than this one. How could we go to the moon in the 60s and early 70s, but seemingly have no way to do so now? The world has gotten much smaller in the last 30+ years. Why can't the solar system? (And where is my flying car?)

I am not a supporter of the ISS. Well, that's not entirely true. I support a long-term presence in space, but I believe the ISS is not the appropriate way to do it. Many of its functions may be more cheaply performed by unmanned vessels. It seems that the main reason it's manned at all is simply to examine human physiology in weightlessness. I recognize the value in that, but is this the most efficient and forward-thinking way to do it? In my opinion, it is not.

I also believe that the ISS has been used as an excuse to maintain a costly, inefficient, and counter-productive space shuttle program. I believe those resources should be refocused on programs that are more worthwhile.

So what makes the Bush proposal a worthwhile alternative? It's progress. It is the tangible movement of mankind from one celestial body to another. It is not stagnant. It is bold. It requires commitment and resources and cooperation. What advances came from the space race of the 60s? How different would the earth be had that not happened? Consider the huge advance that was for mankind. Think of satellites, and computers, and delivery systems, and tracking systems, and materials, and entertainment choices, and communications systems that we would do without had we not made the choice to go to the moon. Would those things have ultimately been discovered? Perhaps, but certainly not so quickly. I would argue that the world has changed much more since 1960 then it did from 1900-1960. Without the leaps made during the Space Race of the 60s, I don't think we would recognize our world.

So that's why I support it. I want to see the same achievements and breakthroughs that my parents saw. I want my children to live in a world that is a radical improvement over this one. I think exploring other planets is a step toward that end.

A few people have expressed reservations over the cost of such a program. That's valid. However, citing the tax cut as an excuse not to pursue it is flawed logic. The tax cuts have recently shown to be having a positive effect on the economy. When similar tax cuts have been made by previous administrations, revenues to the federal government have increased. Evidence suggests that this time will be no different. The money will be there, as long as there is a commitment to succeed.

Good day to you all.

AYBABTU™

 

[GeeBot]

Oh no, you brought up politics! You jinxed it!

Anyway, this link popped up on /. today, with some stuff about the possible military role in the new space plan:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040118/pl_nm/space_weapons_dc

It's actually a Reuters wire story, but still quite interesting.

 

[Iceman16]

the "No Bush" silliness

'the "No Bush silliness"'?!?!?!?!?!?!WTF!!! You actually like Bush? Why? Hes done nothing good for the world, he invaded a country because the leader made fun of his daddy, America's economy is almost in shambles, he killed 3000 people in sept 01, he declared war on a form of warfare whch is just plain nuts, and now he wants to go to the moon and Mars when the money could be better spent cutting down the national debt or in health care or in any of the other departments suffering because of Bush.

(Geez Im starting to sound like Psych..oh no....)
And now for something completely different...
We can all thank Nazi Germany for developing the v-1 and v-2 rockets which were then copied into the designs of both the USSR and US scientists working back in the 50s and 60s which got us into space.

 

[Bob McDob]

(Geez Im starting to sound like Psych..oh no....)

Yeah, since Psych is a liberal that hates Bush and the space program and all ...

 

[Iceman16]

I meant that as in his way of totally shutting ppl down and just generally being an asshole

 

[psych]

I meant that as in his way of totally shutting ppl down and just generally being an asshole

Look at it this way, since it's an election year, you can create your own "I hate psych" political activist group! It'll be a grassroots activist organization just like the idiots here People like Iceblade, Antman, McGruff, "Colonel" Jim, Dammerung, new, and others will be thrilled to join your group and show their patriotic right to an opinion and show everyone how this country is so great and how true and dedicated to guys are to your beliefs and convictions!

Cause remember: putting down people who post stupid stuff on an internet forum is so anti-free speech and anti-American!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(as I've said before, I really don't mind being underestimated as some sort of worthless loser . . . it gives me an element of surprise)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

'the "No Bush silliness"'?!?!?!?!?!?!WTF!!! You actually like Bush? Why? Hes done nothing good for the world, he invaded a country because the leader made fun of his daddy, America's economy is almost in shambles, he killed 3000 people in sept 01, he declared war on a form of warfare whch is just plain nuts, and now he wants to go to the moon and Mars when the money could be better spent cutting down the national debt or in health care or in any of the other departments suffering because of Bush.

Also, he beat up a puppy!

... everything you read on the internet is true.

 

[prophecy421]

Also, he beat up a puppy!

... everything you read on the internet is true.

LOL



sure the economy is bad right now.. but the potential knowledge and resources that can potentially be gained by leaving the nest finally would more than make up for it. Heck after all we are the mighty USA and dont go by the gold standard anymore (thankfully) so why dont we just mint cash like crazy and use it up... oh umm wait a second.. thatwont work, my bad anyways my point is basically this.. once we get to the moon and mars reguardless of cost each place contains resources that are low here on earth.. (plantum, titanium, minerals that end in um for example) im not talking about stripmining the moon or mars either like another country could possibly do. The missions are not an immediate cash cow, but will pay forthemselves and then some in the long run. Thats what ultamately is the real plan behind this endevor. and it doesnt help that we can kick the pants off of more commies in the mean time

 

[psych]

Also, he beat up a puppy!

... everything you read on the internet is true.

Bush was the reason black people broke into my car and stole my $400 stereo system back in Winter '00, it happened when he became the President Elect!!!!!

Back to the space topic, anyone who doesn't support the space program is just plain wrong, and anyone who says "but I love space! I like Macross, Star Trek, Wing Commander, more space cartoons, Buck Rogers in the 20th Century!" is talking the talk and living out a fantasy but when it comes to real life and the real thing, they don't got the balls to support it.

 

[prophecy421]

anyone who doesn't support the space program is just plain wrong, and anyone who says "but I love space! I like Macross, Star Trek, Wing Commander, more space cartoons, Buck Rogers in the 20th Century!" is talking the talk and living out a fantasy but when it comes to real life and the real thing, they don't got the balls to support it.

well said... I think most people are afraid of what we will find out there in the vast depth of space. Its either that or they are the next evolution of the Amish

 

[Erkle]

Hes done nothing good for the world, he invaded a country because the leader made fun of his daddy

Umm I think it has more to do with the possibility of WMD, even though we have yet to find them, we still did the right thing. Saddam was killing people on a Hitler scale, we saved countless lives, we liberated a country and will turn Iraq over to its citizens this summer. We will remain as peacekeepers for as long as that governing council asks us to. I think that Bush did the right thing.

America's economy is almost in shambles

Thats strange, I got a raise, i bought 2 new cars, my job field is growing, I am taking my tax refund thanks to the marriage penalty refund to maybe buy a house. I know that unemployment is up, but you can't blame the government for less jobs. In fact there are not less jobs but rather different jobs. As things become more and more automated, the job focus changes. Instead of taking thousands of people to build a car, now with machines it takes hundreds. There are less bank tellers due to atms. Meanwhile there is a huge growth in medicine, and computer tech jobs.

he killed 3000 people in sept 01

i think the terrorists killed those people or maybe that sudden stop at the end of there flight. I mean come on, are you also one of those that say guns should be outlawed due to all of the killings? How bout cars? I bet Ford kills more people then Smith & Wesson, Colt, Glock, Sig and the rest combined.

money could be better spent cutting down the national debt or in health care or in any of the other departments suffering because of Bush.

I think that money should be taken from welfare. I live in a Democratic state, I work as a Paramedic in a large city. I walk into peoples houses and pick them up everyday for the stupidest of reasons (sore throat, swallowed some dish soap, cut finger, fever, cough) stuff that most people would go see there doctor or ignore. Now I would say 2/3rds of my patients have state insurance. That means that the state is billed a minimum of $300 per ambulance ride plus the $1000 ER visit per patient. If you need it fine, but most of these people do not work because "The Government Takes Care Of Me" that does not stop them from having $30,000 cars or $5,000 TVs. I think the government needs to reexamine how it spends money. Going to space is a worthwhile incentive.

Jim

P.S. going to space will create lots of jobs all over the US.

 

[Ein-7919]

Back to the space topic, anyone who doesn't support the space program is just plain wrong, and anyone who says "but I love space! I like Macross, Star Trek, Wing Commander, more space cartoons, Buck Rogers in the 20th Century!" is talking the talk and living out a fantasy but when it comes to real life and the real thing, they don't got the balls to support it.

I'm going to assume you're aiming that comment at me since I posted that I enjoy the programs/games you listed (although I never watched, or said I watched, Buck Rogers in the 20th Century). If your comment was leveled at me I feel that I have to clarify what I said (since you seem to have perverted what I said into a very false statement). Did you even read what I had posted last time in its entirety? That there are other alternatives to manned space exploration. To re-iterate, at this time, with our technology where it is (i.e. chemical propulsion systems), manned exploration beyond the moon is fairly impractical (a manned mission to Mars would be about the limits to what would be practical at this time).

The space program should continue its campaign of remote probes to explore space...but at the same time, more should be done to develop the technologies to enable more advanced (i.e. manned) exploration methods to become practical. It has nothing to do with having "the balls to support it", it is all about the practical nature of what is being proposed. Remote probes, rovers, surveyors, and the like are about all we can do beyond Mars. As for manned missions to Mars with current technologies, well, seeing as how it takes approximately 3 months to get to Mars (3 months for remote vehicles anyways) and seeing as how the crew would need to spend that time in a 122' orbiter (the only current space vehicle we have to transport humans). I don't know about you, but to me, the psychological tensions of living with 6 (or more) people, for 3 months, inside a vehicle that is shorter than a 737-800 (quite a bit of the length is for the payload anyways) would be unbearable. And then, there is the question as to how you'd get back to Earth. How would you propose a manned mission to Mars be achieved? The orbiter is pretty much out of the question. What does that leave? At this time, nothing. Maybe in 10 years or so, the technology that would make the mission practical would exist (in which case, huzzah! Go to Mars!). But until then, all we can really do is continue the unmanned exploration programs we currently have, and further research into future technologies that would make manned missions possible.

So, psyche, do not just say that people who you think are "talking the talk" and who "don't have the balls to support it (the proposed space program)", read what I actually posted. Not just this post, but my previous posts. In those posts I never made the claim that space exploration should be discontinued ("your main point is that you do not support going to space." as you so plainly put it). I made the claim that manned space exploration is impractical at this time. In 10 years, MAYBE we (the US) will have the technology to make manned exploration practical. But until then, we should focus on unmanned exploration AND the technologies needed to make manned exploration feasible.

So once again, psyche, I implore you to actually read my previous posts. Furthermore, could you possibly tell me WHERE you read that I made the claim that I do not support going to space. Because I re-read my posts and NOWHERE did I make that broad claim.

 

[psych]

I'm going to assume you're aiming that comment at me.

If I wanted to attack you or that aim that comment at you, I would have done so right after your previous post (and in the same way how I dislike hypocrisy from people who protest and 'hate' Special Ops forces such as Navy SEALs and Green Berets in Iraq and Afghanistan but go home and play Counter-strike, Rainbow Six, and put on BDUs and play commando with toy airsoft guns).

But to give you that warm fuzzy feeling that your rant didn't go to waste, after reviewing that that since there are other more important things on your mind, such as supporting progressive values such as bitch about the tax cut, axe the defense budget, complain about the economy, I will guess at this point that you will vote Democrat this upcoming year. If no, then disregard any further saying at this point and accept my apologies. Afterall, a vote for Bush is a vote for the space program.

But if yes, realize that the Democrats also "like" space but support higher priority stuff like what you said (or better yet, 1.4 trillion for slave reparations!). And if Bush wins this year and pushes for the space budget, the Democrats will do whatever it takes to nail all of Bush's proposals before they start (because they at this point really hate him). And if you vote for them this election, you will be on their side. All stop. Simple as that. Black and white. No if's, no and's, and no fucking buts (pun intended).