Bossman's callsign should have changed...

MannPower

Commodore
... To Zombie, since he died and came back to life, only to die again (I guess the cats got his head the second time around.)

But seriously, I started this thread as a less rigid - and more appropriate - place to argue the finer points of including the Movie continuity with that of the games. The biggest incongruity is, as mentioned, Bossman's death in the film and subsequent undead flight service in WC1 ;).

To let you know where I'm coming from: I consider the canonical acknowledgement of the film by Star*Soldier to be a technicality. I think there's a bit of mismatching in there that should have been considered before EA made the decision to meld the two; after all, if I were the guy in charge, I would have made a different decision.

Still, what are your theories on Bossman, and how do you view the Movie? It is true canon for you, or an alternate timeline?
 

Max Gene

Spaceman
When I watched it I was half asleep and hadn't played any of the games, I just knew it was based off a game and thus I had to catch it when it was on sci-fi. But I always thought that the general consensus was that he had ejected?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
To let you know where I'm coming from: I consider the canonical acknowledgement of the film by Star*Soldier to be a technicality.

It's not just Star*Starsoldier -- Arena itself mentions the Pilgrim War... and (Arena Producer) Sean Penney said in an interview (when asked about the movie): "Um... one of the big questions in the 'Wing Commander' community is, 'Is the movie part of the universe?' And I had the opportunity in this game, by simply making references to events in the movie, to put a stamp on the 'Wing Commander' history and say 'this is the next step of the history. And people are looking at this game and are taking it as holy writ for the 'Wing Commander' universe. So did the movie fuck up the storyline? No."

I think there's something of a misconception as to what a 'canon' is, though - because it's not *for* us... it shouldn't matter to the average fan. It's the rules that the IP owner has for future products - you need to respect, X, Y and Z... and it only makes sense that the movie made by the series' creator is in that list. We use that 'canon' for our debates... but beyond that, I can't really imagine why anyone should care about it. If you don't want to accept that the movie (or Privateer 2 or End Run or whatever you've chosen) didn't happen, then that's fine... but don't be surprised when we talk about those things and when they're referenced in future stories.

Now here's my "then we must X" comment - not canonical, just a theory. I think it's more than possible to bring back Bossman in a future story (if necessary*) -- I say 'more than' because I think that doing so can actually explain a lot of continuity errors. I actually wrote a comic book script to do this once, and Major Striker was going to draw it... then NinjaLA was going to draw it... and I don't know if anyone's doing anything with it now.

In short: explain that Bossman was simply captured by the Kilrathi, a fate worse than death. Reference End Run, where Bear explains that families whose boys are captured are told they died quickly in combat - since it's superior to being tortured, enslaved or eaten (and any combination thereof) by the Kilrathi. The background we're given about Bossman supports this - in fact, it doesn't make all that much sense without it... how the heck did they get his fighter back? There's your answer - a Kilrathi slaver pried him out of it and dumped the crippled ship.

There's any number of ways to take the story that get him back on the Tiger's Claw, but you can use it to explain a few other 'problems' with the movie - like the ranks... could Angel be demoted for lying to her superiors about Bossman's fate? Could it end the relationship with Blair? Etc.

* - and, /is it/? Do we *need* Bossman to be alive in Wing commander I... the nature of the game allows him to die any time and just never appear. It would be good to bring him back to explain the Secret Missions 2 story with Angel, I'll give it that - but I don't think he's entirely essential.

(And here's another aside - Bossman died twice already and no one raised bloody murder... he gets killed in Super Wing Commander's 'SM1.5', too.)
 

MannPower

Commodore
It's not just Star*Starsoldier -- Arena itself mentions the Pilgrim War...

I lumped the two together in my statement. Technically, yes, it's part of the canon. I don't choose to ignore it when discussing canon-necessary problems, specifically - but my intention was to say, "That's the official line, but I think they could have done better."

At any rate, Bossman is that one thing standing between the movie and the game that makes you scratch your head. It's easy to simply say that he went MIA - since the specifics of his death are never elaborated upon - and that he resurfaces between the end of the movie and the beginning of WC1. The point is that it's not explained by the canon, so this is the place to bake your theories.

I think it boils down to the movie being a movie - in that a movie always takes liberties. But that's an old song, and we all sing it.

Anyways, LOAF - if you're serious about that comic, let me know. I've been looking for a good reason to start going WC art.

like the ranks... could Angel be demoted for lying to her superiors about Bossman's fate? Could it end the relationship with Blair? Etc.

Maybe it was more like, "Oh wait, you're not in the Navy? Crap, we're transferring your commission. Uh... Here, you're a Captain now."
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Well, this didn't go anywhere over the weekend.

I lumped the two together in my statement. Technically, yes, it's part of the canon. I don't choose to ignore it when discussing canon-necessary problems, specifically - but my intention was to say, "That's the official line, but I think they could have done better."

My take is that the movie itself is a very small thing. It's the great "well, I'm not doing anything else Saturday night" of the Wing Commander universe. But at the same time, it brings with it a lot of great, great material. Look at the Confed Handbook, the 'manual' for the movie. It was written by the same guy who did Origin's manuals and it's full of all those small things that help expand the universe and make it live and breathe. The same applies to the novels and other licensed materials.

So Blair had a little adventure his first day on the Tiger's Claw - that doesn't bother me as long as I get all these cool ship histories and bits of character background and new points for the timeline...

I think it boils down to the movie being a movie - in that a movie always takes liberties. But that's an old song, and we all sing it.

Well, I think there's more to think about than just that the movie greivously injured Bossman... and it'll lead us to a better understanding of what Chris Roberts thinks about the Wing commander universe and how it differs from what we think. Lets ask the tough questions - like why did the movie mention Boss *at all*?

This isn't Batman... there's no great audience that recognizes Robin but doesn't care that his origin story is changed to bring him into the movie. Bossman's appearance is an offhand reference to a character who hasn't been mentioned in Wing Commander's continuity since 1991. There was no necessary requirement that a movie of Wing Commander explain or reintroduce or even mention Bossman. In all likelyhood, the simple fact that they used his name was supposed to be a kindness to *us* more than anything else.

Anyways, LOAF - if you're serious about that comic, let me know. I've been looking for a good reason to start going WC art.

We'll have to ask NinjaLA, I think he's still around and may 'own' it.


Maybe it was more like, "Oh wait, you're not in the Navy? Crap, we're transferring your commission. Uh... Here, you're a Captain now."

Yeah - it's not the first time Wing Commander screwed up the services... and even the Victory Streak chart is nice and odd about exactly what the equivalent Navy grades should be.
 

Mjr. Whoopass

<FONT color=lightblue><B>I was going to say someth
As far as Bossman changing his callsign; actually I think he did once change his callsign. IIRC it was once 'Ripper' or something like that in his younger days.
 

Farbourne

Rear Admiral
My take on any franchise--not just Wing Commander--with elements that span different genres (i.e. movies, games, comics, etc) is this:

There will inevitably be continuity errors, some accidental, some introduced for artistic reasons relevant to the different media. There will also be apparent inconsistencies that, while not technically continuity errors, make elements of the story seem different in one medium than they are in another (e.g. the ships having different appearances between the games and movie, etc).

However, apparent continuity errors appear in real life, as well. Read any historical account of a major battle, or series of events. There will be inconsistencies. Then watch a documentary about the same events. More inconsistencies. According to Japanese accounts, the U.S.S. Hornet was sunk four separate times in 1942. Some "historically accurate" portrayals of the battle of Agincourt put the English outnumbered 5-1, while other accounts also accepted as historically accurate put them outnumbered only about 2-1. According to some historians, Benedict Arnold caused the Americans to win at Saratoga despite shoddy leadership by Gates, but according to others, Gates trimphed despite insubordination by Arnold.

I think of fictional franchises that I love as various "historical" accounts of events, and consequently the events that occur in them may be slightly inconsistent when portrayed in different sources, and that doesn't diminish their realism, because historical accounts are often inconsistent in the same way. And it doesn't even have to be historical. Think of any great mythological story and count how many different versions with conflicting events can exist.

Of course, as LOAF points out, a good franchise will establish a "canon" so that future creative efforts can minimize the inconsistencies between their efforts and what has already been established. But I challenge anyone to find any franchise that is without inconsistencies, even within its established canon. (The only one that even comes to mind as possible is Babylon 5, just because JMS had exclusive creative control over all aspects and was obsessive about continuity, but even he probably made some mistakes).

But if we're talking Bossman inconsistencies...shouldn't his callsign in the movie have been "Ripper"? :)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
But if we're talking Bossman inconsistencies...shouldn't his callsign in the movie have been "Ripper"? :)

The movie takes place a month before Wing Commander I, not years earlier. :)
 

NinjaLA

Alex Von T.
Yeah, I still am working (albeit slowly) on the bossman story, but I see no reason why a bit of collaborating can't happen, what kind of comics do you do?

I'd like to see some of your stuff!
 

privfan

Commodore
I'll always view the movie as a retelling, like the new BSG

it does nothing to disrespect the original story and stands on its own as a decent movie
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The (well, a) problem is that it's not *retelling* anything... which, one would think, would be the necessary minimum requirement for such a definition. Lets say you wanted to keep Star Trek: The Next Generation separate from the original Star Trek (for whatever reason) -- whatever you do, you can't just write it off as a *retelling*.
 

NinjaLA

Alex Von T.
As an update, I am planning very shortly to continue the story as I started it months ago, I've been through a hellishly time-sucking job for the last 8 months, but thats all done now.

keep an eye out in the near future for more updates!
 
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