Behemoth Crew Compliment?

[Bandit LOAF]

One has to wonder what the Behemoth would have been like if the threat of Belarius hadn't forced Tolwyn to rush it through the final stages.

I recall Tolwyn mentioning he thought the Behemoth was all wrong. The weapon should have been mounted on a platform that could defend itself and move and fight. You would think Confed would have put some sort of hangar deck on the Behemoth, it's not like they didn't have the room for it. The race against time condemned it. If only Tolwyn had known about Paladin's project before right?

Belarius (I know it's spelt wrong) was an interesting idea introduced in FC, it's one of those plot devices, along with Murragh that I thought would have been really interesting to see develop in the WCU.

Belisarius, after the Roman general.

I know there's a tiny element of the fandom who obsesses over this... but they somehow forget the actual *point* of the 'conspiracy'. It isn't a serious thing - it's something Tolwyn (and Whittaker) are manipulating to help cover their own terrible plot. From False Colors: "Then there was the constant gnawing strain that the G.E. project, the virus hidden wtihin the bacteria of Belisarius, was perhaps the greatest moral outrage of all. Yet there was no longer an alternative. That was the hidden truth Whittaker had revealed in their meeting, a t ruth which he had kept from Jason. Belisarius was simply the Trojan Horse that would be destroyed, a nd then the real plan would be hatched."

Actually, I thought that the Behemoth was a more viable plan than the T-bomb. It was doomed more by the fact that Hobbes was a traitor, rather than it being unsuitable to perform it's mission.

It's exactly the same plan as the T-Bomb... it just required an several-kilometer long unarmed gun instead of a tiny invsiible heavy fighter for delivery.

I wonder if this ww2 analogy was part of designing the Behemoth and T-bomb (design wise, not in-game universe). It would go along with the idea of WC being WW2 in space.

I'm pretty sure it was - in every conceivable way, from its precise involvement in the war analogy down to the look of the bomb being derived from Fat Man. One of the Privateer 3 scripts drags the Severin-as-Oppenheimer bit even further when it brings him back for a post-war story.

(Colonel Blair certainly felt a lot worse about the bomb in later years than Colonel Tibbets did, though...).

 

[Red Coat]

I wonder if this ww2 analogy was part of designing the Behemoth and T-bomb (design wise, not in-game universe). It would go along with the idea of WC being WW2 in space.

Well Chris Roberts did say Wing Commander was "World War Two in Space." so it's very probably that he got alot of the ideas for the conflict and weapons from the global conflict itself.

Cheers,

Red Coat.

 

[LeHah]

Well Chris Roberts did say Wing Commander was "World War Two in Space." so it's very probably that he got alot of the ideas for the conflict and weapons from the global conflict itself.

Some things are very obvious - like Action Stations / Pearl Harbor but the games, novels and movie also draw from other sources as well. Its as much WWII in Space as it is The American Civil War In Space, at times. (Though, obviously, the series is certainly more WWII in spirit)

 

[mustanger]

It's exactly the same plan as the T-Bomb... it just required an several-kilometer long unarmed gun instead of a tiny invsiible heavy fighter for delivery.

Well, you are right. I was more referring to the fact, however, that it did not require setting up asteroid bases for weapons housing, or fighter penetration to Kilrah. I was pretty much under the impression that once Behemoth comes through the jump point, it is aimed and fired in a relatively quick manner. The T-bomb took a bit more... ingenuity, as opposed to brute force.

 

[Shipgate]

I wonder if the Behemoth has a workstation inside the barrel of the gun, like on the Death Star.

I always pictured those guys getting a massive dose of radiation poisoning as they stood there.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Actually, I thought that the Behemoth was a more viable plan than the T-bomb. It was doomed more by the fact that Hobbes was a traitor, rather than it being unsuitable to perform it's mission.

I disagree with this statement. The Behemoth plan was ludricrous. Its far easier to slip a single fighter into enemy territory rather then a cap ship (and this is the Behemoth we're talking about!!!)

The thing was massive with close to no protection, even with the fleet, how far do you think it would have gotten? I highly doubt that a Confed task force would have been able to stave off the bulk of the Kilrathi fleet long enough to bring the Behemoth in, position it properly and fire. Hobbes or no Hobbes, I don't think the Behemoth had a chance in hell of working.

 

[Iceblade]

Well, it was blown up due to a lack of complete shielding, though true enough there would be a lot of torpedoe bombers to fend off.

 

[Red Coat]

Some things are very obvious - like Action Stations / Pearl Harbor but the games, novels and movie also draw from other sources as well. Its as much WWII in Space as it is The American Civil War In Space, at times. (Though, obviously, the series is certainly more WWII in spirit)

Yes, quite. Sometimes, I compare the lack of progress on both sides to the Trench Warfare of WW1. Many months would pass and only limited results would be achieved by either side. But the comparisons really don't go too much further than this.

Cheers,

Red Coat.

 

[mustanger]

I disagree with this statement. The Behemoth plan was ludricrous. Its far easier to slip a single fighter into enemy territory rather then a cap ship (and this is the Behemoth we're talking about!!!)

The thing was massive with close to no protection, even with the fleet, how far do you think it would have gotten? I highly doubt that a Confed task force would have been able to stave off the bulk of the Kilrathi fleet long enough to bring the Behemoth in, position it properly and fire. Hobbes or no Hobbes, I don't think the Behemoth had a chance in hell of working.

Well, both plans were based on the element of surprise. I agree, if the Kilrathi know Behemoth is coming, then it stands little chance of success. The problem is, Hobbes tipped them off that it was coming, as well as giving them the information on how to destroy it.

It is the same thing if the Kilrathi knew that Blair and company were coming in with the T-bomb. They would have mobilized their fleet, and four fighters would never have made it near the area to deliver the bomb.

 

[Nomad Terror]

Okay so just how far does a giant gun platform have to get BEHIND ENEMY LINES before it gets noticed? I find it very unlikely that a huge flying particle cannon and an escort fleet can just waltz right up to Kilrah unnoticed and blow the planet away.

Why are spies sent in small groups instead of armies? Because the smaller a force is, the less likely it is to be noticed.

 

[Iceblade]

It would have been an all out desperate final strike. Confed would be pushing on all fronts not to mention pulled out a lot of vessels to push and pull enemies away from the path of the big gun. Still would probably of failed and resulted in many casualities on Confed's already shrinking forces. (or that's what seemed to me to be the plan)

 

[Dundradal]

Okay so just how far does a giant gun platform have to get BEHIND ENEMY LINES before it gets noticed? I find it very unlikely that a huge flying particle cannon and an escort fleet can just waltz right up to Kilrah unnoticed and blow the planet away.

Why are spies sent in small groups instead of armies? Because the smaller a force is, the less likely it is to be noticed.

I always wondered how Confed was able to get such a large fleet to Hyperion (or was the battle in Freya?) considering Kilrah is right next store. Also, how did they get such a fleet together on such notice, unless it was already in place for the Behemoth.

 

[ChrisReid]

I always wondered how Confed was able to get such a large fleet to Hyperion (or was the battle in Freya?) considering Kilrah is right next store.

Right, the Victory wasn't supposed to force the Behemoth through Kilrah.. Confed was massing that gigantic fleet in the next system over as a huge diversion.

"The carrier made the jump from Blackmane to the Freya System, where the High Command ordered the strike force to assemble for the attack that was supposed to cover the raid on Kilrah. Through the viewport in the rec room, Blair could see a few of the ships of the Terran fleet, some close enough to recognize shapes and configurations, others so far away that they glimmered as moving lights against the starfield."


"The timing of this phase of the operation was critical. The Confed's battle fleet had jumped into the Hyperion System from nearby Freya, challenging the local Kilrathi garrison forces with a series of strike attacks by fighters and capital ships. Victory had remained in reserve throughout nearly a week of combat ops, keeping to the fringes of the action. The Kilrathi were given every opportunity to commit their forces to the system, and they'd pumped in enough ships to put the Terran fleet at a
serious disadvantage. It was all a part of the plan, to encourage the cats to thin out their home defenses and divert attention away from Kilrah."

Also, how did they get such a fleet together on such notice, unless it was already in place for the Behemoth.

Certainly the planning was under way. Blair's assignment to the Victory itself many months prior was part of this.

 

[Spertallica]

I always figured if they could get a carrier close enough to launch fighters to strike Kilrah, (even with two refueling depots) then getting the Behemoth into the system and fired wouldn't be much more difficult (if at all more difficult, seeing as it seemed they only needed to secure the jump point at the entrance to the Kilrah system long enough for the Behemoth to line up and fire).

On a seperate note, what did Tolwyn mean about keel mounts on the behemoth? From my (admittedly limited) understanding, the only Terran keel mounted weapon was the phase transit cannon.

 

[frostytheplebe]

Certainly the planning was under way. Blair's assignment to the Victory itself many months prior was part of this.

Many months prior? How long a time span was it between the loss of the Concordia to Blairs assignment on the Victory? I would have thought that Tolwyn would have rather been on his old flagship AND have had Blair with him... that having been said, why did Tolwyn assign him to the Victory? Wouldn't a Jutland, Concordia, or even a Wake (considering thier excellent history of slipping behind enemy lines) been more preferable to use with such a precious project?

... I mean I can kind of see why they wouldn't use a Jutland as 6 of the 8 had already been lost, there weren't really any Bengals left, but Concordias were pretty numerous at that point... as I'm sure Wakes were... or what about the TCS Agamemnon (sp??). If she was still around.

Okay so just how far does a giant gun platform have to get BEHIND ENEMY LINES before it gets noticed? I find it very unlikely that a huge flying particle cannon and an escort fleet can just waltz right up to Kilrah unnoticed and blow the planet away.

Why are spies sent in small groups instead of armies? Because the smaller a force is, the less likely it is to be noticed.

Exactly my point, a small wing of fighters is far more feasable then half of Confed's fleet.

Well, both plans were based on the element of surprise. I agree, if the Kilrathi know Behemoth is coming, then it stands little chance of success. The problem is, Hobbes tipped them off that it was coming, as well as giving them the information on how to destroy it.

It is the same thing if the Kilrathi knew that Blair and company were coming in with the T-bomb. They would have mobilized their fleet, and four fighters would never have made it near the area to deliver the bomb.

They DID know it was coming. Do you think it was just an odd coincidence that Thrakath and Hobbes (if you haven't already killed him) are waiting for you on the last Nav point before you drop the bomb? My guess is that Thrakath was so pompous and overconfident that he didn't see a small one-man fighter as a serious threat (where have we seen this before?) so he ordered his fleet to stand down, had his cousin escort him into orbit and intended to deal with Blair personally (STILL not learning his lesson from the last two times they engaged!)

 

[Spertallica]

They might have been able to extrapolate the Excal's flight path based upon radio chatter from previous engagements in the Kilrah system- but how do we know the fleet wasn't trying to intercept Blair, and the random passing of Thrakath was just to give the player one more crack at him?

It seems to me the T-Bomb was successful where the Behemoth wasn't for two reasons-

1. The Kilrathi obviously didn't know about the T-Bomb, or they would have protected the fault line on Kilrah from fighter attack- the same way they destroyed the Behemoth because they knew exactly where it was coming, how it operated, and where it's weak spots were.

2. The Excals had cloaking technology, whereas the Behemoth didn't. Even if the Kilrathi fleet was scrambled, it wouldn't do a whole lot of good against fighters the fleet couldn't detect.

Honestly, if you take prior knowledge of how to defeat the Behemoth out of the equation, the Behemoth seems like the far more likely path for success- you only have to hold one area of space near a jump point into the system long enough for the Behemoth to line up and fire, thereby rendering any defenses that weren't in the area of the jump point moot, instead of running a single fighter through a virtually endless gauntlet of fighters, capships, and whatever static defenses were in place in the Kilrah system between the jump point and the planet itself. Also keep in mind that if you could get a carrier close enough to the Kilrah system to launch a fighter strike into the system, there's no reason you couldn't get the Behemoth that close as well. (As the game illustrated). The cloaking certainly helped the Excal's bypass the fleet in space- but it obviously doesn't work in atmosphere, where you would have an entire planet's worth of fighters (plus any that could follow from space once you were detected, plus ground AA fire).

 

[frostytheplebe]

They might have been able to extrapolate the Excal's flight path based upon radio chatter from previous engagements in the Kilrah system- but how do we know the fleet wasn't trying to intercept Blair, and the random passing of Thrakath was just to give the player one more crack at him?

Gameplay wise, maybe. Storyline-wise I can't believe that Blair just "happened" to run into Thrakath.

It seems to me the T-Bomb was successful where the Behemoth wasn't for two reasons-

1. The Kilrathi obviously didn't know about the T-Bomb, or they would have protected the fault line on Kilrah from fighter attack- the same way they destroyed the Behemoth because they knew exactly where it was coming, how it operated, and where it's weak spots were.

2. The Excals had cloaking technology, whereas the Behemoth didn't. Even if the Kilrathi fleet was scrambled, it wouldn't do a whole lot of good against fighters the fleet couldn't detect.

1. Reread my last post, they HAD to know about it because Hobbes is there waiting for you at the Kilrathi homeworld, i find it impossible to believe he didnt hand that info over to Thrakath.

2. ONE Excalibur had a cloaking device. It was fitted with it for that particular reason. The original one you flew didn't have one. Nor do the others you see later on.

Honestly, if you take prior knowledge of how to defeat the Behemoth out of the equation, the Behemoth seems like the far more likely path for success- you only have to hold one area of space near a jump point into the system long enough for the Behemoth to line up and fire, thereby rendering any defenses that weren't in the area of the jump point moot, instead of running a single fighter through a virtually endless gauntlet of fighters, capships, and whatever static defenses were in place in the Kilrah system between the jump point and the planet itself. Also keep in mind that if you could get a carrier close enough to the Kilrah system to launch a fighter strike into the system, there's no reason you couldn't get the Behemoth that close as well. (As the game illustrated). The cloaking certainly helped the Excal's bypass the fleet in space- but it obviously doesn't work in atmosphere, where you would have an entire planet's worth of fighters (plus any that could follow from space once you were detected, plus ground AA fire).

Far more likely? Have you ever seen what a Cavalry charge can do? The Kilrathi outnumber the Confederation in ships. All the Kilrathi had to do was make a mad dash of a suicide run at the Behemoth the moment they saw it coming (without prior knowledge) and they would have easily been able to blast it.

Also, the fighter strike sent from the carrier would not have been successful without the secret opps bases to rearm, and reload, which makes your argument about sending a carrier "close-enough" inaccurate.

As for the protected fault line, fault lines run for miles usually, its pretty hard to protect all of them. I think they did what they could to protect them (note the heavy fighter on Blairs tail right up until he drops the bomb.)

 

[McGruff]

Reread my last post, they HAD to know about it because Hobbes is there waiting for you at the Kilrathi homeworld, i find it impossible to believe he didnt hand that info over to Thrakath.

The 'official' storyline of the WC3 novel has Blair pursuing Hobbes and killing him before he is able to escape and deliver the T-Bomb information. If the Kilrathi had any idea at all of the weapon's existence, both the jump point and the faultline would have been made impenetrable.

As far as Hobbes waiting for you at Kilrah, you can also choose Flint in the game, but that doesn't make it so in wing Commander history.

 

[BrynS]

I don't have my WC3 novel to hand, but I believe Thrakhath is aware of unusual activity in-system and had recently doubled patrols after a destroyer had discovered one of the Confed supply depots and obliterated it.

However, I think he is only made aware of the Excaliburs when they descend to Kilrah and engage atmospheric fighters and defences, at which point he pursues with his Bloodfang and escorts.

 

[ChrisReid]

Many months prior? How long a time span was it between the loss of the Concordia to Blairs assignment on the Victory? I would have thought that Tolwyn would have rather been on his old flagship AND have had Blair with him

Blair was injured and not flying at all when the Concordia went down.

... that having been said, why did Tolwyn assign him to the Victory? Wouldn't a Jutland, Concordia, or even a Wake (considering thier excellent history of slipping behind enemy lines) been more preferable to use with such a precious project?

... I mean I can kind of see why they wouldn't use a Jutland as 6 of the 8 had already been lost, there weren't really any Bengals left, but Concordias were pretty numerous at that point... as I'm sure Wakes were... or what about the TCS Agamemnon (sp??). If she was still around.

You need to be careful with your carrier names there. "Wake" and "Jutland" are theoretical class names. No "Wake class" or "Jutland class" ship ever actually appears in an official Wing Commander product. I'm not sure exactly what ships you're thinking of, but it sounds like you're overestimating the number of carriers around.

The 'official' storyline of the WC3 novel has Blair pursuing Hobbes and killing him before he is able to escape and deliver the T-Bomb information. If the Kilrathi had any idea at all of the weapon's existence, both the jump point and the faultline would have been made impenetrable.

I don't think this is a point worth pursuing. The official history is irrelevant in your scenario. WC3 can be played with Hobbes escaping to Thrakhath with Blair still able to deliver the Temblor. If you're talking about "what if" scenarios, there it is. There's no reason to believe that the jump point and fault would be made "impenetrable," because this doesn't happen in WC3 if Hobbes escapes.