Battlestar Galactica

Paragon

Spaceman
Bandit LOAF said:
... because Battlestar Galactica is a stupid useless make-you-feel-good-for-doing-nothing production that's symbolic of everything that's wrong with us.
How is that not an indictment against anyone who enjoys the show?

Bandit LOAF said:
That said, yes, I think there is a very negative group mentality assosciated with Battlestar Galactica -- there are lots of internet jerks patting each other on the back and telling themselves they're brilliant for liking the sex robot show.
It's not just Battlestar Galactica -- it's every internet forum! That's the nature of the beast. A narrow sighted individual could take a short glance at this forum and easily make the assumption that we are self-important fan boys desprately holding onto a dying franchise with no hope of return, assuring ourselves that Wing Commander should be held in the same Sci Fi ranks as Star Wars, Dune, and anything written by Heinlein. This assumption would upset alot of people here, myself included. I simply think it's a bad idea to generalize a group of people.
 

Primate

Spaceman
...And why in the world does the word "undrdogs" (correctly spelled) get blanked out from posts?
Sounds like a potentialy entertaining story!
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Paragon said:
I'm really having a hard time not laughing at this post. I find it especially hilarious that the writer of the Wing Commander Ship List, Time Line, etc. argues that we are too hung up on "continuity".
So how's your Pen & Paper Wargame/First Person Shooter/Animated Series fan project doing?
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
How is that not an indictment against anyone who enjoys the show?
I think stupid fun is great -- as long as you're honest with yourself. Battlestar Galactica is a dumb, dumb show... enjoy it for that. Enjoy watching robots do it because it's sexy, not because you're pretending there's something there. Believing it to be some kind of clever social commentary or even a reasonably plotted drama - and most especially believing that you're somehow better for having watched it - is where you run into trouble.

And certainly don't drop everything else because you like having stupid fun, which is the biggest problem Battlestar Galactica represents to me (as discussed above).

It's not just Battlestar Galactica -- it's every internet forum! That's the nature of the beast. A narrow sighted individual could take a short glance at this forum and easily make the assumption that we are self-important fan boys desprately holding onto a dying franchise with no hope of return, assuring ourselves that Wing Commander should be held in the same Sci Fi ranks as Star Wars, Dune, and anything written by Heinlein. This assumption would upset alot of people here, myself included. I simply think it's a bad idea to generalize a group of people.
That's fine... but the problem here is that these groups now control everything else. You make and market a new genre show to sell to us jerks instead of to everyone -- that's what I'm complaining about.

I'm not saying there's some golden fandom somewhere... people trading their fanzines in the 1970s were as insular and creepy as we are -- but they were entirely under the radar of the people turning out actual episodes and movies.
 

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Sorry for starting this guys. I just had never seen the show before and was impressed by the miniseries. I do respect LOAF's opinion immensly. Do I think that LOAF was directing a personal attack at me for liking the miniseries......absolutely not! His perception of the scifi community as a whole is spot on. Most scifi audiences tend to be juvenile. I myself have a bit of a junenile streak. I think what LOAF is trying to get across is that because of the juvenile aspects of scifi, it will really never be taken seriously, and if we promote (as adults) the more immature aspects of our community to represent the whole as art, then that is how it will be perceived!

I do believe that I can like something while another member of the WC community doesn't and we can still exchange rational and respectful dialogue, at some point even develop a friendship.

I'm really having a hard time not laughing at this post. I find it especially hilarious that the writer of the Wing Commander Ship List, Time Line, etc. argues that we are too hung up on "continuity".

If I wrote a 5 paragraph manifesto about how much the Wing Commander movie sucks (it does & I own it, figure that one out), I'd be banned faster than you can say "Stupid-looking Kilrathi".

If you like the show, great. If you hate it, fantastic! It's not your critisizm of the show that's suspect. It's the veiled implication that anyone who watches it is a shallow, vaccuous drone with no intellect.
On a side note, I have noticed a bit of hostility from some of the newer members of the forum directed at the more senior members as of late. While I still consider myself a junior member, I have been corrected and helped along the way for over two years now by LOAF, Chris, Le Hah, Death, Major Stryker, and many others. These guys know their stuff and are all very intelligent. They are here to help us along and provide for a solid community as a whole.

One thing I have been told before that really continues to help me is to "use the search button'' and look up prior discussions on certain topics. This really cuts down on frustration from the more senior members (who have had to deal with many of the same issues repeatedly brought up over the years).
 

Paragon

Spaceman
Believe me, I intended no hostility. Sarcasm... probably.

Actually, after reading his further arguements, I'm willing to concede the point to LOAF. He makes a good point. We do have a tendancy to cater to the immature aspects of Sci Fi.

My problem was with his initial post. It seemed riddled with accusations of the show AND it's fans. I wouldn't put up with someone doing that about Wing Commander either.

As far as us "newer" members, well here's how I see it. "Senior" member do deserve respect and, in the case of LOAF and his knowledge, maybe even reverence. However, that in no way makes them exempt from being challenged if someone disagrees with them.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Sorry for starting this guys. I just had never seen the show before and was impressed by the miniseries. I do respect LOAF's opinion immensly. Do I think that LOAF was directing a personal attack at me for liking the miniseries......absolutely not! His perception of the scifi community as a whole is spot on. Most scifi audiences tend to be juvenile. I myself have a bit of a junenile streak. I think what LOAF is trying to get across is that because of the juvenile aspects of scifi, it will really never be taken seriously, and if we promote (as adults) the more immature aspects of our community to represent the whole as art, then that is how it will be perceived!
Certainly not a personal attack on you... we have Battlestar Galactica threads frequently and I generally try to comment (often sarcastically, I'll admit) in them. I felt especially interested here because I've been bouncing out this 'group psychology' fandom idea with LeHah and company these past few weeks on IRC and I felt like putting fingers to keyboard to message board archives.

It's not so much that science fiction fans need to be taken seriously as it is they need to continue to reproduce (obvious joke goes here). It's a given that science fiction will never have the legitimacy of other pursuits -- sci fi fans are an easy target, and sci fi media fans all the more (if you can't keep the legitimate science fiction writers from making fun of you, you have no hope with anyone else). My worry is that without a current equivalent of Star Wars or Star Trek, who is interesting our children and near future children in the community?

When we were growing up we were impressed with these shows not only because they were amazingly fun, but because they were fun that our parents had too. Now that we are the parents, we're telling the next generation of kids to find something else -- we want to watch the sex robots and we won't cotton to anything else. Is 'Revenge of the Clones' really all that worse than 'The Empire Strikes Back'? Who knows (the secret of criticism is that you can critique anything for any reason in any direction)... but the fact that we decided to act like nihilists about it means that the next generation, which will always want to become more like us, never latched onto it.

Heck, I think it goes deeper than just sustaining science fiction fandom... think of all the scientists and engineers you know who grew up to math/science jobs because they loved Star Trek? We're trading that in twenty years down the line... and it's not just because we *like* sex robots, it's because we insist on *only* liking sex robots.

On a side note, I have noticed a bit of hostility from some of the newer members of the forum directed at the more senior members as of late. While I still consider myself a junior member, I have been corrected and helped along the way for over two years now by LOAF, Chris, Le Hah, Death, Major Stryker, and many others. These guys know their stuff and are all very intelligent. They are here to help us along and provide for a solid community as a whole.
A valid point. The "I could hardly help from laughing at your comment" bit in that last fellow's post was entirely silly. At the same time, you do have to strike out to an extent. The people you mentioned - myself especially - are all very, very fallible... we get angry and ban people and regret it later when we realize we shouldn't have.

I guess the lesson here is this and simply this: if you want to make a name for yourself, make fun of LeHah, because it will entertain everyone else.

One thing I have been told before that really continues to help me is to "use the search button'' and look up prior discussions on certain topics. This really cuts down on frustration from the more senior members (who have had to deal with many of the same issues repeatedly brought up over the years).
Honestly, I've never liked this advice. It irks me when I see a poster respond to someones question with something like this... because frankly, I'm happy to talk about most anything a second time (or a second millionth time, which is generally the case in our community). We're still changing things in the Ships List because it still gets discussed... so people shouldn't be afraid of bringing up old topics again. Responding to a seemingly simple question can lead to an interesting discussion that might change how we think about various aspects of Wing Commander continuity. (Of course, do use the search feature in this case, because I still maintain that however mean spirited it may have been, Super Neon Battlestar Galactica was hilarious.)

In fact, maybe the better advice is -- do use the search feature, but start your topic anyway afterwards. A community that isn't talking sucks.
 

TopGun

Vampire Ace
I love the new Battlestar Galactica, I also love the original series. Weird combination I know, but each to their own I quess. The camera work for the space shots remind me of Firefly.

That said, I do respect other peoples opinions on the show or anyother subject for that matter, whether they agree/disagree with my own. Differences of opinion on a subject make for the better discussions. Take the WC Movie for example, some people like it while other people hate it, and then there are thoes that don't dislike it while at the same time don't like it. I for one like the movie, and I am happy to hear why others hate it, just aslong as it's not the sort of "The movie sucked" post as that is not a type of post can kill a discussion, or heat it up, as you will get people questioning why said person thinks the movie sucks.

LOAF is correct in saying that BSG caters to the immature aspect of Sci-Fi and is aimed at Teenage boys mostly. That said those of us that are in are 20s and above can watch it and enjoy it too.

As mentioned by others Frack is a made-up curse featured in both the original series and the new one, the original series also had another made-up curse word Felgergarb. These are attempts by the show(s) to get round censorship. BSG has Frack, Firefly has Gorram, Farscape has Frell and so on.

In the end we all have different tastes. That dosen't mean that people are better than each other, for liking or disliking BSG or anyother show/movie. If we all love the same things we wouldn't be human
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
As mentioned by others Frack is a made-up curse featured in both the original series and the new one, the original series also had another made-up curse word Felgergarb. These are attempts by the show(s) to get round censorship. BSG has Frack, Firefly has Gorram, Farscape has Frell and so on.
This is exactly the problem I have with the modern fans. Pretend swearing is by no means an attempt to get around censorship (which, as a practical matter, does not exist here).

It's not some amazing fight with evil censorship -- it's just an extension of a long, tried and true tradition of science fiction making up futuristic slang. The logic is, of course, that swearing is the sort of language that changes the most quickly... so creating some new etymology is a cheap and easy way to make your setting seem futuristic. Things like "tanj" certainly wasn't borne out of some attempt to secretly swear (I can swear three or four ways in Kilrathi... not social commentary, not social commentary, not social commentary).

Of course, in the case of Super Neon Battlestar Galactica this is probably more a slavish dedication to what has come before rather than any attempt at creating a more unified setting... new BSG has some pretty big problems in terms of exactly what what elements of and why it incorporates human culture into itself.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Bandit LOAF said:
I guess the lesson here is this and simply this: if you want to make a name for yourself, make fun of LeHah, because it will entertain everyone else.
I don't know. While I've admittedly taken many written insults on here, I've found that the best ones are usually left for Frosty.

This being said and back on topic, I see this new BSG series as whats's wrong with sci-fi. The whole thing is really a cheap, stupid ploy to cash in on a familiar name. It would've been just as easy to have called it "Robots Versus Humans: The Series" and basicly written a new, just-as-short-and-stupid backstory. The use of the BSG title is just a cheap, soulless gimick to tie into a series that people use to love.

To a degree, I see this in Firefly also. While well intentioned, Firefly was at best an interesting distraction that provided nothing new in terms of characters, despite having some witty dialouge exchanges. The writing is constantly sloppy - the character of River Tam is one of the worst items of exposition I've ever seen put to function in a TV series - and the reason that makes it sloppy isn't the script but the fact that it tries to force it's self-affirmed individualism down our throats. Oh, yeah, I get it - it's a Westerm and Sci-Fi! Somehow, Roddenberry's "Wagontrain To The Stars" was a lot easier because it wasn't trying to be all things to all people.

I will never understand and may never forgive the internet for telling me that Firefly is the Second Coming. Anyone who tries to sell that to me again is going to choke on their front teeth like Montgomery Clift.

Call me old guard if you will, but I haven't seen any good "new" sci-fi since the third or fourth season of X-Files but fans will eat up anything now. That's extremely dangerous because now we're getting into awful set-ups for sex (LOAF mentioned BSG's Sexbots, I remember the goo-n-undies scene in the pilot episode of Enterprise) and political bullshit (Star Wars Prequels aside - anyone who didn't think the prequels were going to involve heavy politics didn't pay attention to the original trilogy at all).

I think a lot of this is to blame on the internet. I'm not sure how - but I can tell you that I loved sci-fi back when it was just me and new Next Generation episodes and thats it.
 

TopGun

Vampire Ace
Bandit LOAF said:
Pretend swearing is by no means an attempt to get around censorship (which, as a practical matter, does not exist here).
.
I stand corrected

It would be interesting to see how someone else would have remade Battlestar Galactica.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Dragon1 said:
Did you guys like Babylon 5?
I wasn't much exposed to B5 as a show. I wanted to because I tend to enjoy Harlan Ellison stuff and he was a consultant on the show.

However, I have been exposed to fans of B5 creator JMS, as well as his other writings and I can safely say I count myself as fortunate for missing B5. JMS comes across as this giant dickhead who thinks he knows it all. The fact of the matter is he writes with the same level of prose as a... well, he can't and I'm running out of analogies.
 

Primate

Spaceman
I loved B5! Remember when Saturday night still rocked?
I found it to be just a little pretentious, though. It had some really good character dynamics (Lando-G'Kar) and some pretty bad ones (Sheridan-Delenn), but otherwise it was just a great Sci-Fi show.
 

Dragon1

Rear Admiral
Yeah, I can see that about JMS. He came off as quite arrogant on the DVD commentaries.

I enjoyed the show through to season 4. Season 5 left a rather bad taste in my mouth-- it is still the only DVD season pack that I haven't purchased.

The movies were so-so, except for 'River of Souls' and 'Legend of the Ranger', these were exceptionally bad. I really think that the cast more than anything made the show; Bruce Boxleitner, Jerry Doyle, Peter Jurasik, the late Andreas Katsulas, and Walter Koening were very fun to watch, even if they hammed it up way too much at times.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
I like Babylon 5. It was a good show. JMS does seem to think he know it all, but that didn't prevent the show from being good, what is the point.
 

Pedro

Admiral
I often find it disturbing how well sci-fi fans completely miss the point of BattleStar. Honestly original ideas in any genre, including sci-fi are few and far between, what makes sci-fi so interesting is that a lot of the ideas are relatively new and hence the varying repercussions of these ideas can be explored for new angles, new interactions explored. Thats exactly what we've got with BSG, using sci-fi concepts to explore what it is to be human. Its touched on what constitutes life, love, the important factors in religion, its positive and negative influences, abortion, alcoholism, the pros and cons of democracy in a society. Wheter or not you like how its done I'm amazed people are so quick to insult it for its failings in areas which other sci-fi focuses on. As if we didn't have enough generic crap all trying to do the same thing.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Did you guys like Babylon 5?
I enjoyed the heck out of Babylon 5. I think Babylon 5 was, for all its faults, in many ways exactly the kind of show science fiction needs.

Now, I'm a little older, a little pickier and a lot more sarcastic... and with that I have a lot of trouble going back to Babylon 5. It's something that aged out of relevance very quickly.

I certainly look down on it today -- the crummy effects, the big chunks taken from Lord of the Rings, the absolute unsubtlty of the thing... and the fact that battles never start until after Tron has had the opportunity to give a lengthy spur of the moment speech that involves quoting Lincoln several times... but who knows, I'll probably romanticize the thing tomorrow.

Thats exactly what we've got with BSG, using sci-fi concepts to explore what it is to be human. Its touched on what constitutes life, love, the important factors in religion, its positive and negative influences, abortion, alcoholism, the pros and cons of democracy in a society.
Gentlemen, I beg to present you exactly my point about Battlestar Galactica fans.
 

Maj.Striker

Swabbie
Banned
AD said:
No you're not almost done season 2. Season two has almost twice the number episodes of season one and it hasn't even all aired yet.

http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/episodes/
The first 10 episodes of the season aired though and there was a few months it seemed in between before they started with more episodes again in january (or was it december?). To bad it only goes downhill from where you are.
True, I meant to say of the seasons that hit DVD I've watched...I"m working on the episode right before Pegasus so I can't really comment on how the plot progresses. Suffice to say I'll have to watch those episodes before I can judge whether or not the plot degenerates in my own opinion. Up until this point I've been adequately entertained by the show.
 
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