And for some Humor...

Originally posted by Philip Tanaka
It's funny you brought up the topic of homosexuality, because at the moment where I live there is a lot of raised emotions about them, particularly same sex couples being allowed to adopt children. Do you know where in the bible it mentions homosexuality, whether or not it is a sin?
Yup, it's a sin alright. See below for more info

"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.".... A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion."

...But then I remember when I fought child porn that a defence was made about sexual relations with children because it was in the bible. Child porn, or paedophilia, is definetly illegal, so under the assumption that such a statement is in the bible, it seems to be a little muddy in view of current and past law. On homosexuality, I remember a scandal involving a lesbian who became a minister. A fellow minister was asked about it, how homosexuality was forbidden by the church. (Either Christian or Catholic, from memory). Not quite, said the minister. Homosexual activity, much like abstinance nuns take up.
There is nothing I know of in the Bible that supports pedophilia. If you can find such reference, I should like to know chapter and verse. Whoever used that as a defense, well, I guess I'd hafta say, "consider the *source*"... Don't get me wrong; there's all kinda perversions in the Bible, 'cuz it's a catalog of human behaviors, both good AND bad. What I'm saying is that I've never seen that one mentioned in the Bible in a way that in any way implies that God is/was at all cool with it... As such, there's no muddiness at all over that issue (unless you can find such a verse and then exegete in in such a way as to prove that's what such verse meant. It's important to remember that pedophilia back in those days would've been slightly different from what we consider it today. What I mean is simply this: In ancient Jewish culture, it was normal for a girl to get married as young as 12-13 years old (which is about how old the Virgin Mary was estimated to be, btw). Therefore, what is referred to as statutory rape (or "jailbait") today would've been completely acceptable in that time & that culture. Perhaps that situation is what the "defense for pedophilia" you cited consisted of. If so, it's still a poor defense, since the marital/legal standards of ancient Jewish culture aren't relevant to the laws & culture of the West today.

As to homosexuality/lesbianism, the space limitations here make it impossible to have a thorough discourse on it, but I'll try to make the major points that come to mind.
(1) There likewise exists no scripture in the Bible that supports it. Whenever it is mentioned, it is always in such a way as to condemn it. Again, if anyone disputes this, gimme chapters & verses, and we'll have us a real interestin' convo about it.
(2) That said, it is important to note the distinction between gay orientation and gay sexual activity (for brevity, I'll just use the term "gay" to refer to both "flavors" of it). The orientation is not condemned per se, but the activity most definitely, from Old to New Testament, is roundly condemned. Likewise, all sexual activity outside the bonds of marriage - usually called "fornication" in the Bible - is sin (see below for some specifics of why).
(3) As such, homosexual activity in itself is no greater of a sin than, say, single hetero people having sex. However, greater emphasis is given to gay sex in the Word, prolly because it tends to be more of a "lifestyle" (read: an long-term, ongoing, persistent behavior, highly resistant to change on the part of the person doing it) than just about any other type of sexual sin.
(4) It all comes down to what the Divine purpose was for God creating sex in the first place. The short answer is, He created it for pleasure (thus it's not "dirty" per se), for human procreation, and to bond a husband & wife together in a transcendantly deep and intimate way. However, it is only to be enjoyed within the context of of the bond of holy matrimony (marriage).
(5) As such, since gay folks can't marry (one another), they are ineligible to partake of its pleasures before God. Neither, it needs to be said, are unmarried hetero people eligible UNTIL they get married (and *then* only with one another, natch). Why aren't gays eligible to marry, and why is it so "abominable" to God, you ask? Simple: It deviates from His perfect plan for mankind; thus it is a misuse of the gift of sex that He gave us. Gay folks can't reproduce the species with one another (nor can a "woman mating with an animal" to use the example someone mentioned earlier); promiscuous heteros mating outside of marriage lead to out of wedlock births, thus striking a blow against the sanctity of the institutions of marriage & family, and so on and so forth.
(6) Some Christian denominations (most prominently Presbyterians, if recent memory serves) have been struggling with gay-related issues in recent years (ordaining actively gay ministers, performing same-sex marriages), and that is quite unfortunate; tragic, really, since they are a portion of the body of Christ on Earth, supposed to represent Him to a lost & fallen world, and yet they can cite no reliable biblical justification for it. This serves (much like the recent Catholic pedophile priest scandal in the US) to give God, and His people, a black eye. When you come right down to it, this is just a sad example of what a corrupting influence the culture can have on the church.

Well, that's just a brief treatise on a subject that could take up volumes, but I hope it's helped to shed some light for any of y'all who may've been wondering about it.
Originally posted by Delance

"Once Saved, Always Saved".
Ah, the old "Calvinism vs. Arminianism" debate. Thanx 4 the clarification. All I have time to say about that right now is this: Mainstream Christian thought on that leans primarily in the OSAS direction, AFAIK. A notable exception that I found out personally about is the AOG (Assemblies Of God) denomination. They believe you can "lose" your salvation.

The big differences between the Roman Catholic Church and other Christian denominations (Anglicans, apparently) views on salvation and the other Christian Religions is, in grand part, about Salvation. The debate is if being a Christian automatically saves someone regardless of their life, or if they have to be good person.
I can't think of much more to say about that subject than I've already said, except this: If a person has accepted Christ at, say, age 20, and they live to be 50 yrs old, the pathway their life will take in those 30 years will be, for the most part, one of "becoming a good person"; that is, their lives will show a consistent improvement over time to being a better person than they were at age 20. That doesn't mean they won't sin, or even have periods of time when they get into moral "ruts", of course (As the old bumper sticker says, "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven"), but their lives will show an overall improvement. If their lives do not show that improvement, you have reason to question whether they ever really trusted Christ in the first place. Just because they said they did don't mean squat; you have to go by the evidence (James 2:18-25, among other places).

But I must say you were, in part, right about the Roman Catholic position on this. In the past, there was some debate on this, but the side that says that good people won't go to hell just because they never heard of Christian Religions won.
Can't say I agree with you/the RCC on that one, but we already knew that. I will offer you this passage, though, and ask you to thoroughly investigate it (for yourself, but also look into some exegesis on this from RCC & non-Catholic sources) and see if your perspective on it don't perhaps change a bit. Here it is: Romans 1, especially v 18 through the end of the chapter. In fact, the whole letter of Paul to the Romans is an excellent source for anyone looking to understand the basics, and some advanced concepts as well, of the faith.

You asked what I though of some of the Catholic positions you posted, Augustine, etc. I will have to get back to you on that, since it's late and I've already written quite a bit. Maybe tomorrow or this wkend.

Shalom!
 
Originally posted by Preacher
In ancient Jewish culture, it was normal for a girl to get married as young as 12-13 years old (which is about how old the Virgin Mary was estimated to be, btw). Therefore, what is referred to as statutory rape (or "jailbait") today would've been completely acceptable in that time & that culture.

I can't remember what context was use, but that makes sense. I read up current laws and the youngest legal age is 11, in either Argentina or Uragury (sp?) if I remember correctly.

Originally posted by Preacher
(4) It all comes down to what the Divine purpose was for God creating sex in the first place. The short answer is, He created it for pleasure (thus it's not "dirty" per se), for human procreation, and to bond a husband & wife together in a transcendantly deep and intimate way. However, it is only to be enjoyed within the context of of the bond of holy matrimony (marriage).

Ooooohhhhh...90% of the human race is doomed then. :p But I do understand in that context, how since homosexuals cannot marry and all sex outside marriage is a sin, then homosexual activity is a sin. But I hope no one agrees with the idea that the only right gays have under God is the right to die, as a anti gay propoganda sticker I saw and reported yesterday proclaimed.
 
Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka

...But I hope no one agrees with the idea that the only right gays have under God is the right to die, as a anti gay propoganda sticker I saw and reported yesterday proclaimed.
I hope so too. Another black eye on the Church is how some (*few*, thankfully) extremists have resorted to this venomous - and totally invalid, from a biblical view - viewpoint. The word "propaganda" pretty well sums it up; empty words that do nothing but inflame people to hatred & violence, and for no good/defensible reason.
 
That is very inflammatory. I don't know of any homosexuals personally, but my personal view is not to vilify homosexuals, but I wouldn't gently try to convince them of their wrongdoing. I'm not sure what I'd do if they persist in their ways.

I had an interesting thought the other day about evolution versus creation. In the ultimate scheme of things, I don't think understanding the origin of the universe is vital, but I don't necessairily see evolution and creation as being mutually exclusive. I'm content to see evolution as our explanation of God's hand in creation, but an argument I find compelling against pure evolution without involvement by God is sex. What use has the pleasure derived from sex got to do with evolutionary development and survival? :)

Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
But then I remember when I fought child porn that a defence was made about sexual relations with children because it was in the bible.
There is plenty of evil in the Bible. Just being in the Bible doesn't make it right.

Originally posted by Delance
The debate is if being a Christian automatically saves someone regardless of their life, or if they have to be good person.
No one can get into heaven by being 'good', because everyone has sinned and even the tiniest rebellion against God is punishable by death. Fortunately, God provided Jesus as our "Get out of jail free" card, but in wholeheartedly placing faith in Jesus, Christians are compelled to live as good a life as they can. Justified by faith, not by works.

AFAIK, by definition being a Christian (in life, not just as a label) means committing your life to Christ, so yes, being a Christian is salvation. And even 'bad' people can be saved when they turn to Christ.
 
Who? What?

I don't know much about Catholicism. While it is supposed to be part of Christianity, it seems to garble a lot of things, which is why I suspect Catholics are regarded in a different manner.

And no one can be regarded as a saviour save for Christ himself.
 
Ooooohhhhh...all of this makes my head hurt. But I was wondering, has anyone seen Evangelion? Did you pick up all the religious stuff in it?
 
But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to think about it. :)

No, I don't watch animé, but there's loads of religious overtones in plenty of stuff. Things can have the appearance of spirituality, but are in fact quite hollow. Which is why I don't like using those words because people have false preconceptions of what they mean.
 
Oh no, I'm not saying that at all. Just going back a bit about a couple of things you said, about Jesus being our "Get Out of Jail Free" card for our sins, do you mean "original sin"? Also, how you said about all the evil things in the Bible, you mean things like what happened as the Ten Commandments were enscribed to Moses, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Edan (Yolanda Jilot made a movie with the same name, by the way) :), the cheating in the chariot race from Ben Hur (sorry, some names escape me), Cain and Able, Lilith and such?
 
What's "original sin"? In ignoring God and not making him our priority, we all sin.

By evil things, I mean things that are mentioned in passing which people sometimes say "oh, it's in the Bible, so it's okay". Things like witchcraft, drunkenness (which isn't to say that drinking is necessarily bad), paedophilia, prostitution, etc.
 
Originally posted by Wedge009
An argument I find compelling against pure evolution without involvement by God is sex. What use has the pleasure derived from sex got to do with evolutionary development and survival? :)
Well... absolutely everything :p. We're evolutionarily programmed to derive pleasure from sex in order to encourage us to breed. If sex was a painful chore, then the Bible, instead of restricting sex to marriage, would command men and women to have sex at every opportunity for the sake of the species.
 
Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
Oh, just think. All those spammers will be going to hell.

That depends. Remember, some people say that since all men are bad, it doesn't matter if you are a good person or a bad person by our standards, it's irrelevant. There's no judgment, no weighting of good or bad actions, the only things that matters is your religion. For others, good and bad deeds do count if someone is to be saved.
 
Man, this thread seemingly goes into hibernation for like, 1-2 weeks, and suddenly explodes with activity again... Whew! Guess I got some catching up to do. Here goes:

Originally posted by Wedge009

I don't know of any homosexuals personally, but my personal view is not to vilify homosexuals... AFAIK, by definition being a Christian (in life, not just as a label) means committing your life to Christ, so yes, being a Christian is salvation. And even 'bad' people can be saved when they turn to Christ.
Well said, dude!...
Originally posted by Ghost

So how someone like Torquemada fits in that *savior* perspective?
Um pardon my ignorance, but who dat?...
Originally posted by Philip Tanaka

...Also, how you said about all the evil things in the Bible, you mean things like what happened as the Ten Commandments were enscribed to Moses, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Edan (Yolanda Jilot made a movie with the same name, by the way) , the cheating in the chariot race from Ben Hur (sorry, some names escape me), Cain and Able, Lilith and such?
Pardon me, but I'm confused: What exactly are you asking here?...
Originally posted by Wedge009

What's "original sin"? In ignoring God and not making him our priority, we all sin.
Originally posted by Philip Tanaka

I think we are all born with "original sin" for defying God and Jesus, I'll have to get back to you on that one.
"Original sin" generally refers to the self-will; the sin nature that we all inherited from Adam after the Fall. This gives us all the innate tendency to act in ways that defy God's created order of things. Which, of course, would include defying/denying/ignoring God & His Son. The concept is, all specific sins one commits spring from the original sin nature they were born with.
Originally posted by Delance

That depends. Remember, some people say that since all men are bad, it doesn't matter if you are a good person or a bad person by our standards, it's irrelevant. There's no judgment, no weighting of good or bad actions, the only things that matters is your religion. For others, good and bad deeds do count if someone is to be saved.
Dude, the guy appears to have been simply joking with you. Ya need to get yer "sarcasm meter" checked.

That said, the first part of your assessment above is right on. I will say again (as pertaining to the second part of your response) that salvation does not consist in one's religion per se, but consists in one's relationship with the Living God. That is to say, it ain't about religion, it's about Relationship. Actions are important, but not nearly so much as your heart-set towards God. (See Acts 2:8-10 for a related enlightening nugget of Truth)
 
Ah. Thx; somehow I had associated him in my mind w/ the Inquisition even w/o knowing who he was specifically.

To answer what I think you were asking (correct me if I'm wrong here), all I can say is "I don't know".

I'm disinclined to believe that a participant in such bloodletting was 'saved' (at least, *while* all this was going on) per se. However, as I've been trying to point out here, the root question is one that, in the end, is between the individual & God - esp. when it was an historical figure who has no living relatives/friends of whom we can inquire what the guy was like at the end of his life. Oh well....
 
In the judaism is easy, you have the Yom Kippur: in that day God pardons you only the sins or transgressions against him.

But you must talk with the person (the one who you commited a sin or transgression) to be granted a pardon so you can be forgiven.
God can´t forgive you about a sin or transgression against a person.
 
Originally posted by Preacher
Pardon me, but I'm confused: What exactly are you asking here?...

I was wondering whether that was the evil Wedge was talking about. Actually, he meant things such as paedoplillia and such.
 
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