Originally posted by Worf
Let's simplify matters and say we have two religions, A and B. Both claim that if you're not part of their religion, then you'll go to hell. Since it's more or less impossible to be a member of both religions simultaneously, we can assume upon death that you'll be of one religion or other. Now, if you go to heaven for that religon, the other will have you go to hell, so you end up in hell (and heaven). But, you're still in hell.
Again, Worf, your logic is flawed:
(1) You can't assume upon death that a person is "one or the other"; they could be an athiest.
(2) Each religion has their belief about heaven & hell, but the ultimate standard is the ACTUAL heaven and/or hell, not either religion's beliefs concerning same. If you get to heaven AT ALL, then it don't make a whit of difference if the "other" religion believes you to be in hell. This shoots your above premise, well, "all to hell" (pun intended
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Originally posted by ChrisReid
Where exactly is the logical premise in your thinking that implies one religion must be right at all?... I don't see what logical process determines that there must exist one religion that must be right..
I see your point.
To answer your question, though, I'd say this: The courtroom standard of criminal trials here in the US is that the person must be proven guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt". Since this isn't a criminal matter, I'd say we apply the standard for civil trials, which is (again, here in the US) "a preponderance of the evidence". Simply, I'd say that "a preponderance of the evidence" indicates that it must be so; that there must be an afterlife and thus a heaven & hell. What evidence, you ask?...Simply the fact that every religion (or practically every one that I've ever heard of, anyway) believes this indicates that it must be so.
Originally posted by Redwolf
...Guys accept it, either there's nothing there, or, if there is some sort of afterlife and God is such a nice entity, so long as you've been a fairly decent person, you'll go to 'heaven'.
I've had a good school friend of mine, who has turned to 'God' tell me to my face that no matter how good a person I am, if I don't confess to his god, I am going to hell. In that case I guess God is well, somewhat of a bureaucrat then because he sticks to black letter law.
In that case, what ever happened to mercy, love and compassion? Must be in short supply. I consider myself a good person... If someone who is absolutely evil and murders and rapes people only to get into heaven because he confesses, I'll tell God, up front and in person, to shove heaven up his arse...
(1) Bad logic, dude. If your premise was correct, there wouldn't have been any such thing as "religion" whatsoever. If just being a "fairly decent person" was all that was required, man would not have needed religion. After all, religion is, at its core, man's attempt to reach God. Why bother trying to reach Him unless you somehow know, deep down inside, that something is wrong with you, and simply being "fairly decent" was not enough?...
(2) Your friend was right. The bottom line here is that you must believe in God; after all, you can't confess to someone/something that you don't even believe exists, right?... Then the focus turns to which God is the "right" God to believe in - the Judeo-Christian God, the Muslim god, the Hindu gods, or whichever. Each person must answer that question for themselves, and in turn, answer to God when it's all over for the choice that they've made. As for God being a bureaucrat, it hardly makes you a "bureaucrat" to demand that someone believes you exist to grant them entrance into heaven. If you come knocking on my door and proceed to tell me that you think I'm an illusion, an hallucination you're having, or the bad burrito you had last nite, I'm not gonna invite you in for a cuppa coffee; I'm gonna shake my head and shut the door in your face. I have far more important things to do than have conversations with crazy people.
(3) "mercy, love and compassion" are in plentiful supply. In fact, they are right there in the example you went on to give. They are the operative elements that *allowed* the murderer you spoke of in your example to "get in" to heaven, due to his confession. The simple fact is, there will be plenty of people of people in heaven that we wouldn't expect to see there, and I'm sure there'll be, oh, 1 or 2 people there that would be surprised to see ME get there, for that matter. It sounds like you're not too pleased with the standards that God brings to the table; all I can say is, take a number & stand in line. Most of the world rejects these standards, which is why we ended up with so many religions in the first place. We don't like the truth that's been revealed to us, so we make up our own truth to substitute for it. And you know what? It's amazing how much these made-up 'truths' resemble US... Look at, for example, the Greek & Roman gods. They were venal, petty, vindictive and capricious--just like humanity. The reason so many reject God is that they think they have to be able to fully understand Him. Does it not make sense, though, that a being capable of creating all that ever was, is, or will be is more than a *little bit* beyond the finite capabilities of the human mind to be able to comprehend Him?... That's where faith comes in, mi amigo. We take & evaluate what we DO know of God and trust Him for the rest that we don't understand.
Oh, one more thing: If you insist on telling God off to His face, I'd suggest you do it while you're down here. Many have come to faith starting out by arguing with God. He's big enough to take it from you, and He can show you where you're wrong. Bottom line is, if you wait till after, it'll be too late, and you'll never see His face to "tell Him off".
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