All Wings Considered Feedback and Questions

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
We hope everyone is enjoying All Wings Considered as much as we've enjoyed making it. We're starting this thread to ask what the community would like to see on the show as well as any questions or feedback you have.

Please feel free to include any questions, suggestions, and ideas you may have.

If you have a question you want to see answered during Ghorah Khar Talk, please let us know!

Happy Wing Commandering!
 

-danr-

Vice Admiral
I've been enjoying them and it's nice to see that you and Chris interact with those in the chat panel while Ben does his thing, it's like he's getting his flow on and I love how excited he gets - you all have so much passion for Wing Commander.

All I'd say is more of the geeky curiosity items please. For instance, I personally really enjoyed those vehicle assets from Privateer, I know that's kinda what the CIC news is for but it's fun to see them dissected in person like that. Also a big +1 to the gameplay sections, I seldom get to play any more so it's interesting to see how other people go about the missions.
 

dizzibits

Petty Officer
I have only just seen this is a thing, so I need to make time to catch up with the 4 episodes so far (and give appropriate feedback). It looks great though. Has anyone proposed some sort of 25th anniversary hoopla for Wing III?

Edit: which according to the wiki is very soon indeed, although Loaf on YouTube states it is November 1994. For someone who was 10 in 1994, and without any computer aside from a Sinclair Spectrum 48k, I was not following the franchise!
 
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Toast

Space Marshal
I've never really known too much about the rebellion on Ghorah Khar, or its Kilrathi internal politics in general. I get the sense that most of it is the novels, not all of which I've read; I'm only aware there even was one because Thrakath ordered a full spread of missiles fired into the shipyards at Gorah Khar.

So what exactly happened with Kilrathi imperial politics after the destruction of Kilrah? Melek is still in charge of what's left of the civilization in Prophecy, but what about everyone else?

I guess I just don't know the lay of the land much. Eager to hear about it next episode :)
 

dizzibits

Petty Officer
I've been really enjoying the episodes. Having arrived late to the games it has given a newbie insight in to what the different releases and movie were like from the perspective of fans/superfans at the time they happened. Learning about stuff like Div X disc format is truly fascinating!

I'd like to feedback a bit about McHale's Navy. I really like the idea. Compare and contrast the real life examples of ships/medals to their Wing Commander equivalents. It seems to be from taken a perspective of a glorification of the US Armed Forces and presented with a somewhat patriotic stance. Apologies if this is not so. I wondered if there could be a more broader comparison of aspects of the armed forces and some Wing Commander equivalents, in the interest of balance. For example, the Wing 4 rebellion politics, going against orders or challenging the chain of command because of ethical and moral problems. I seem to recall Squadron, the original pitch for WC, did not take it as read that humans were good guys and the aliens were bad (?). A comparison could be made to conflicts in the middle-east or dare I say before that. I feel like I am getting dangerously close to being political though!

I should also be transparent and say I believe that nationalism and patriotism (especially about combat - the civilised term which signifies organised violence against or murder of other people), can produce effects that may not always be positive.

This being said, I found the run through of all the different medals really interesting. As a Brit, it is entirely unsurprising to me that the Victoria Cross is handed out less frequently. Indeed, it says something about British culture in general!
 

-danr-

Vice Admiral
I should also be transparent and say I believe that nationalism and patriotism (especially about combat - the civilised term which signifies organised violence against or murder of other people), can produce effects that may not always be positive.
Hmm, okay I'm going to derail this thread just for a moment then get back on topic. I'm also British. I'm probably more liberal now than when I was younger. I don't know if Wing Commander directly affected my attitudes toward military/war/patriotism, but it certainly had no small part in inspiring me to join the air force when I was 18 - incidentally the RAF found out I was colour blind and told me I couldn't fly, they offered me another role and I still haven't got back to them. I'm now 33. Interestingly, a couple of All Wings Considered episodes ago, @Bandit LOAF mentioned something about being politically influenced by Wing Commander in his teens, I nearly made a thread about it.

So, patriotism. I think it gets a bad rap because people assume it is the same as blind nationalism - an abdication of thinking for one's self. For me though, it's not about some xenophobic superiority complex, it's about self betterment, in fact, let me quote Rich Hall on this very subject:

"I say this only as a patriot ladies and gentleman: I want this place to be better, I want every place to better"

Now as Brits, we can be self aware that our country once ruled the world, and often used brutal and oppressive means to govern, and I don't think there's any harm in your objective statement that some effects of nationalism aren't always positive. It would be fine if everybody thought like this, but in truth, we live in time where increasingly we're discouraged from endorsing any form of patriotism, and whilst it's true that throughout our history we've acted unjustly and oppressively (slavery, colonialism, mastery) I don't think it's unfair to acknowledge (and to a certain extent take pride in) some of the great things our nation has achieved - from science and technological innovation, to the evolution of democratic process and some of the best living standards in the world. So I'll say it: I believe in patriotism, but also self awareness. We live in an increasingly globalised society, nationalism to the extent of 'inherent superiority' over ones neighbours is outdated and dangerous, as in xenophobia and racism. That won't stop me from wanting the best for my country, and for taking pride in some of the things it stands for.

I don't normally go on like this, I guess it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately.

Back on topic:

@Dundradal - what was the inspiration for the Dr. Clyde outtro? He's great! He looks and sounds just like Admiral Terrell (complete with book shelves behind him) and as an amateur astronomy geek I always appreciate somebody who can articulate interesting scientific concepts in language that most people can understand.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
I'm going to chime in on the patriotism thing as well, because frankly, it's ridiculous and silly as heck.

Patriotism is loving your country and nation. Now, think about that for a moment - what does that mean? What analogies can we think of, when we're talking about love? Well, how about home and family?

If I say I love my home and my family, would you, for even an instant, consider saying - "well, hey, maybe you should tone that rhetoric down a bit, don't be so loving. I mean, people have killed others for the love of their wife, or stolen stuff for the love of their home. So, you know, tone it down a bit."

Or if I said my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world (she is!), would you, for even an instant, consider saying - "hey, man, don't say that. She's nice, but, come on, don't be crazy."

Of course you wouldn't. Because you know very well you'd risk a punch in the nose (well, probably I'd just laugh at you - but if I did punch you, you'd know you've only got yourself to blame).

So why is it that people get all twitchy when a person expresses anything even resembling patriotic enthusiasm about their country? It's certainly not because of history: in fact, if we look back into history and really think about what we're seeing, we'll discover that patriotism gets a really bad rap for nothing. People never went to war because they loved their country (unless their country was actually attacked, of course): people went to war because ideologues stoked up a hatred for another country. Chauvinism is not patriotism. Sometimes you'll hear that chauvinism and racism are extreme forms of patriotism - but that's self-evidently false. You know it's false, when you consider that no man ever in the world ended up hating another woman because she's not his wife. Similarly, if someone really loves their own home, they're not going to go around destroying other people's homes out of jealousy. And remember, the love we feel for our family and homes is far, far stronger than what we feel for our nation or country, which are, naturally, more distant to us. Naturally, a case can be made that chauvinism (i.e. the kind of thing you saw in WWI Germany) is a form of misguided patriotism - but really, it has as much to do with patriotism, as love has with rape. Chauvinism is based on ignorance, and is built through propaganda: it's not patriotism, but rather an ideologue's false definition of patriotism whispered into the ears of those who don't know better.

So I call bullshit on the whole "nationalism is bad" thing. Just don't do it, because it's silly and unfounded. You wanna know where this notion actually comes from? It comes from communism. Because one of the core ideas in communism is internationalism - the notion that nations are repressive, and must be overthrown to establish a unified proletariat - communist propaganda always stoke up a mistrust of nationalism. After WWII, this propaganda went into overdrive - taking advantage of people's natural distaste for the fascist and nazi ideologies that drove the war, communists took to labelling everyone who opposed them fascists and nationalists. And because of the incredibly powerful influence communism has exerted and continues to exert on western media and universities, this idea has spread pretty much everywhere. Obviously, it's impossible to fight this nonsense on a global scale - but I figure it's worthwhile to at least set the record straight here at the CZ.
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
I wondered if there could be a more broader comparison of aspects of the armed forces and some Wing Commander equivalents, in the interest of balance.
We certainly plan to explore as many angles as we can when it comes to the real world equivalents of what we see in Wing Commander. If you think of something historical, send it in and we'll add it to our queue.

@Dundradal - what was the inspiration for the Dr. Clyde outtro? He's great! He looks and sounds just like Admiral Terrell (complete with book shelves behind him) and as an amateur astronomy geek I always appreciate somebody who can articulate interesting scientific concepts in language that most people can understand.
Dr. Burrows was LOAF's idea (and Clyde is his brother!). It's a play on the old show Seaquest DSV which used to end with real science talks about things explored in the show that week.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Thanks for the good feedback so far!

The outros are a parody of the first season of seaQuest DSV. It was a show about sci-fi adventures on a futuristic submarines… but then over the credits they'd suddenly have Dr. Robert Ballard (the fellow who discovered the location of the Titanic) giving a token fact about sea creatures or underwater archaeology or whatever was ever-so-slightly connected to the story that week.

With regards to the history stuff, I don't want it to be some sort of propaganda and certainly do appreciate folks from other perspectives letting us know if that happens… I think right now it's just going to seem overly American because so many references in Wing Commander are adapted from American history or the workings of the American armed forces. But as we go we will absolutely find reasons to talk about other aspects of history (and ones from American history that aren't /good/… I'm sure there's a debate over using the T-Bomb in our future!)

As for the debate over patriotism: for my part, I love the ideals that I believe my country is founded upon but also recognize that, as in all things, the realities very often do not live up to my expectations. And that's life, it's easier to know how things should be than to make them that way… and so it's more understanding and impacting the directions we're going than it is battling about absolutes. And I'd never want to insist to anybody that it's ever all great or all terrible. (But frankly, I'm more interested in arguing how long the damn dreadnaught is… :))
 

dizzibits

Petty Officer
[...] So I call bullshit on the whole "nationalism is bad" thing. Just don't do it, because it's silly and unfounded. You wanna know where this notion actually comes from? It comes from communism.
That's a fairly polarized view that's hard to respond to, and this is the internet after all. All I'll say is there are some comprehensive and thought provoking literature/research which considers the pros and cons of "nationalism", a term which itself is ideologically contested. I don't remember writing anything was "bad" in my post, I was wondering about the consideration of nuance and different perspectives.


Hmm, okay I'm going to derail this thread [...]
Your post reflects largely my own view. I have a sense of pride about Britain, my grandfather served at GCHQ Bletchley Park in the 40s and I have his medals framed at home, for example. I was just wondering how welcome it would be to consider controversial aspects of the armed forces/navy and the possible Wing Commander parallels! I wasn't even going to say negative as these issues, or underlying rationales, are rarely (ever?) clear cut. I like my history lessons to consider the counter argument or perspective. For example: "Oh, Nazi Germany used concentration camps! How terrible were they! Oh wait, Britain invented them in South Africa decades beforehand.."

[...]
With regards to the history stuff, I don't want it to be some sort of propaganda and certainly do appreciate folks from other perspectives letting us know if that happens… I think right now it's just going to seem overly American because so many references in Wing Commander are adapted from American history or the workings of the American armed forces. But as we go we will absolutely find reasons to talk about other aspects of history (and ones from American history that aren't /good/… I'm sure there's a debate over using the T-Bomb in our future!)

As for the debate over patriotism: for my part, I love the ideals that I believe my country is founded upon but also recognize that, as in all things, the realities very often do not live up to my expectations. And that's life, it's easier to know how things should be than to make them that way… and so it's more understanding and impacting the directions we're going than it is battling about absolutes. And I'd never want to insist to anybody that it's ever all great or all terrible. (But frankly, I'm more interested in arguing how long the damn dreadnaught is… :))
I certainly did not feel these segments were pro war propaganda! Although I guess I was checking the ideological position this segment was being presented with, in the interest of clarity. William Forstchen clearly has some quite strong political views as you allude to. I do apologise if I have taken this thread and completely derailed it with my post, it was at least based on the show's content!

On topic - one of the best segments is The Cargo Bay! Going over new collectibles. May I suggest the possibility of including old collectibles that people may not be aware of? Like an "antiques roadshow" for Wing Commander!
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I certainly did not feel these segments were pro war propaganda! Although I guess I was checking the ideological position this segment was being presented with, in the interest of clarity. William Forstchen clearly has some quite strong political views as you allude to. I do apologise if I have taken this thread and completely derailed it with my post, it was at least based on the show's content!
No worries at all! I know this is all small stakes but it's something I'm concerned with too. (I'd absolutely be willing to have that Forstchen politics thread sometime, too! As I've mentioned on the show, I've been spending a fair amount of time lately thinking back on why I've thought the way I did at various points in my life.)

And great idea, re: antiques spaceshow!
 
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