Admiral Tolwyn- Madman or military savior?

well, given the responses I've seen so far, I have made up my mind!

He was both!

*Attempts to lock topic, as apparently it is overdone, damn me!*

*fails*

*calls for help*
 

wankski

Spaceman
its got nothing to do with the thread going downhil when nazis are introduced.

funny thing that science fiction often mirrors life.

the eugenics program was widely embraced by the west as well, yes even *gasp* in America !

its just easier to shit on German's and hold up their regime as evil, but the prinicple is as old as 'civilisation' itself. when u think about it, more effort and fore--thought is put into breeding beef than humans.

the german example is just more well-known, and again prone to intermittent re-embellishment, cos well, being on the loosing side in history does that.

examples of eugenics in america is by no means obscure however, just type in "american eugenics program" in google.
 

RFBurns

Spaceman
Yes...sci-fi often mirrors current world events. One example would be the Star Trek series...both original and NG.

Has anyone considered that perhaps Tolwyn's character may have been based on a national socialist leader such as Hitler? Tolwyn could also be compared to another, now captured tyrant....Saddam Hussein. Saddam also killed thousands of innocents using chemical weapons, even using this crap on his own people to invoke fear and control.

All 3 had slightly different motives and intentions..but they all pointed to the same conclusion and result...

..countless deaths that served no purpose other than their own pathetic power hungry appetites. And like the real world tyrants..Hitler and Saddam...Tolwyn also meet his end. Tho Saddam did not commit suicide...his regime did come to an end..and abrupt end, only to be found hiding in a hole in the ground like a scared gopher. Typical of tyrants to be all mighty and talk tough...till the light shines on their porch and like roaches in the dark...they scatter when the light is turned on.

Its too bad Tolwyn ended up loosing control and allowing ambition and power hunger get the best of him. He did do alot of good for Confed and humanity at first...but as the real world has shown..and how sci fi can also show us....

..absolute power corrupts absolutely..no matter who the person is...no matter who.


So kiddies....remember that the next time you step into a voting booth..and always...ALWAYS keep in mind WHAT you are voting for...not whom. Because it is what you are voting for that is most important than whom you vote for..because the whom can always change in a blink of an eye, when you least expect it. Like Tolwyn, Hitler, Saddam..and many others through history....deception is the key to total power and dominance...and they always smile and shake your hand at the begining....then when no one is looking...

...POUNCE!
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The point isn't that Tolwyn isn't like Hitler, it's that the universe is tired of having this discussion (so tired that there's a usenet debate rule against it).

Yes, Tolwyn is supposed to be like Hitler (in WCIV)... but no, it is not subtle, clever, intelligent or unique of anyone to figure this out. The Black Lance/Nazi connection in the WCIV filmed stuff is about as close to beating you to death with obviousness as is legally permissable.

(Furthermore, to the other side of this debate. "You shouldn't compare {x} to {y}" is as far from right as possible. I mean, what is the very concept of comparisons for save discussing the differences between x and y?)
 

redwolf

Spaceman
At the end of the day, how many of us here could still have the same morals (or whatever quality you would like to call it) after 30 years of unrelenting, perpetual war, where your family gets killed.

Not a single one of us. The circumstances change the person.

(awaiting the bleeding heart replies from all the people who think they would keep their morals after so much death...)
 

infinite

Spaceman
dat's BS

Hey! That's my hero you're all talking about, and frankly, I'm a bit insulted that some of you have the nerve to call him a madman. In time he shall be called a patriot.

:cool:
 

RFBurns

Spaceman
Bandit LOAF said:
The point isn't that Tolwyn isn't like Hitler, it's that the universe is tired of having this discussion (so tired that there's a usenet debate rule against it).

Perhaps you should create a newbie section of the forum and allow the newcomers an area to where they will not have to be shawned by the "vets" who find these discussions tireing. Post a rule for the vets..stay out of the newbie sections so the vets wont waste time becoming agitated by topics the newbies find interesting and the vets find old and pointless.

Or follow the rest and let them lead...do what usenet did...

Just a suggestion.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Yeah, you all should thank LOAF for bringing some sanity to this thread. This discussion was old when the CZ was new.

The error, I think, is to compare Tolwyn and the Black Lance with just a single totalitarian movement. The ideas of the Black Lance and their will to do anything, including genocide, to further their goals can be found on other totalitarian and fanatical groups. It is, in fact, one of the characteristics that define such groups.

About the madman/patriot part: Tolwyn was loyal to his concept of what the Confederation should be. The measures he decided to take in pursuit of this objective made him a traitor and for the Confederation he wanted to destroy.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
IMHO,
the fact that he intended too genocide 90% of the human race is reason enough to see him as a consumate insane person.

And being 30yrs in a war does not justify it... Paladin was there too, along with many others, and they didn't try to kill nine out of every 10 people.

BTW, I know we did debate all this stuff years ago on the a.g.w-c =)
 

Viper61

Spaceman
RFBurns said:
Perhaps you should create a newbie section of the forum . . .
If your a 'veteran', you should know you don't have to take part in any conversation that occurs here. If you've seen the debate a million times over, theres nothing that says you have to click on that thread and read and/or post to it.

BTW, the 'you' isn't directed only at RFBurns :)

C-ya
 

infinite

Spaceman
Edfilho said:
IMHO,
And being 30yrs in a war does not justify it... Paladin was there too, along with many others, and they didn't try to kill nine out of every 10 people.
It simply makes no sense - why not send 9 out of 10 people out on a suicidal mission to conduct a pre-emptive strike instead?

Tolwyn could've been right all along, his main flaw was his lack of RESOURCEFULNESS.

Had I been there, I would've done everything in my power to stop him. But neither I nor anyone else (psych degree or not) has the right to define sanity. The way he saw it, saving 1 out of 10 was better than losing 10 out of 10. There actually IS a strange logic in that. =)
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Viper, who was he to DECIDE that? Who knows if he had the right information?
I for one would rather fight and die as a free man...
I think the HUMAN RACE would be entitled to choose between the options.
If the survival of the fittest was the main principle of humanity, we wouldn't have invented glasses or wheelchairs or canes...
 

McGruff

Banned
"Yeah, you all should thank LOAF for bringing some sanity to this thread. This discussion was old when the CZ was new."

- Yeah, let's only talk about topics that have never been discussed before.

"absolute power corrupts absolutely..no matter who the person is...no matter who."

- I suppose there are a very few examples in history of individuals who managed to retain their humanity despite possessing absolute power, but it's awfully rare.

"It simply makes no sense - why not send 9 out of 10 people out on a suicidal mission to conduct a pre-emptive strike instead?"

- Why didn't Tolwyn think of that, construct the superest of the supercarriers and send billions of nearsighted citizen stormtroopers into the heart of the empire to wreak nearsighted havoc.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
It is not a matter of absolute power corrupting, but of the corruption being an integral part of the pursuit of absolute power. Even the power was just a tool to perform his plan to change mankind, and not and end on itself.
 

infinite

Spaceman
McGruff said:
- Why didn't Tolwyn think of that, construct the superest of the supercarriers and send billions of nearsighted citizen stormtroopers into the heart of the empire to wreak nearsighted havoc.
Yes, then they'd be put off the idea of invading our space and would offer us a "no contact"-agreement instead.
 
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