Admiral Tolwyn- Madman or military savior?

You miss my point entirely. If he simply went down to Telamon and killed everyone using Marines, he could've fenced it off as a policing action. You can't say that with a biological agent. This being said - his way of killing of Telamon was the error, not the actual act it's self.
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You missed MY point entirely... maybe you should call NASA and ask them to photograph it going over your head with the Hubble. Tolwyn only killed the people of telamon because he wanted to test the Genselect weapon. If he didn't need to test it, he wouldn't give a Lehah's ass about the planet. Therefore, he'd never kill them with machine guns or slings, because their deaths had no intrinsic value to him. He could have tested the Genselect on many other planets, this one was probably a convenient one. Your point makes absolutely no sense. It has no bearing on the subject, nor it explains or justifies anyhting.

While the heavy-handed "HE'S A SPACE NAZI! AND HE'S WEARING BLACK!" evidence is definitely there, you're attempting to compare the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century to an act of CGI in a video game from a number of years ago.

Please try again or dial the operator for assistance. This is a recording - 20368.
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Pathetic atempt to disregard my argument by changing subject and making a lame joke. Of course the tragedy of the concentration camps is something a lot more important than a "video game from a number of years ago", but we are debating the facts that happened in that "video game from a number of years ago" as if they could have happened. If we were to have this attitude, we wouldn't discuss most of the subjects that appear here. it is a very dumb debate technique you used.

Thank you, President Truman </Sarcasm>
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it is really sad when one has to show that he's being sarcastic when trying to evade the argument. you are LAME.

That, my feathered friend, is a matter of opinion.
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Ok, so indulge me, WHY would Tolwyn slaughter Telamon's population if not to test and display the power of the genselect? why would he bomb the planet or send grunts to shoot every last person (or 90% of them)?

You didn't make any points, you just displayed teenager nerd bad attitude. You can disgree with me, but please answer my arguments with intelligence, and not empty blahblahblah.
 
LeHah said:
You miss my point entirely. If he simply went down to Telamon and killed everyone using Marines, he could've fenced it off as a policing action. You can't say that with a biological agent. This being said - his way of killing of Telamon was the error, not the actual act it's self.
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No, he couldn't. There was nothing to police on Telamon, so there was no way he could justify that action. His "error" was to decide to kill people based on a genetic template. If he had done this with marines he still wouldn't get away with it. But that is completely besides the point.

Tolwyn's objective in Telamon was to test the gen-select bioweapon. He couldn't do that with marines, because he couldn't perform his genocidal plan for mankind with marines. In fact, the Black Lance developed the bioweapon because it would be too hard murder billions of people using soldiers.

He didn't decide to kill the people of Telamon for the fun of it, or because he hated them. Maybe they did have fun with it, and hated the people there, but the whole reason it was attacked because it’s was just a suitable location for a test. This is no speculation, it’s cleary and repeatedly states on the game.

Tolwyn: “We have a tool to do the job”.
 
Edfilho said:
You missed MY point entirely... maybe you should call NASA and ask them to photograph it going over your head with the Hubble. Tolwyn only killed the people of telamon because he wanted to test the Genselect weapon. If he didn't need to test it, he wouldn't give a Lehah's ass about the planet. Therefore, he'd never kill them with machine guns or slings, because their deaths had no intrinsic value to him. He could have tested the Genselect on many other planets, this one was probably a convenient one. Your point makes absolutely no sense. It has no bearing on the subject, nor it explains or justifies anyhting.
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Look - I said he would've gotten away with Telamon if there wasn't evidence of the use of bioweapons or his slip-up in front of the Senate. Nothing more, nothing less. Morality is bullshit, you and I disagree and your repeated sorid attempts at logic couldn't threaten a "Post, No Bills" poster stuck on a back alley wall used as a homeless person's bathroom. This disagreement is vapid, uninteresting and completely pointless. Don't waste everyone's time.

The End.

Edfilho said:
it is really sad when one has to show that he's being sarcastic when trying to evade the argument. you are LAME.
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This is coming from someone goading an issue on the internet of sci-fi genocide from a video game. Yeah, we're talking Meet The Press here, people.

Edfilho said:
You didn't make any points, you just displayed teenager nerd bad attitude. You can disgree with me, but please answer my arguments with intelligence, and not empty blahblahblah.
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Look - I have no reason to waste my time, breath or intelligence on someone who's looking to turn an interesting (if repetitive) thread into a bitch fest. I'll get in trouble or banned and you'll end up crying - no one wins. It ends here. Shut up, get on with your life.

Goodwin's Law is in effect - you lose.

Delance said:
No, he couldn't. There was nothing to police on Telamon, so there was no way he could justify that action. His "error" was to decide to kill people based on a genetic template. If he had done this with marines he still wouldn't get away with it. But that is completely besides the point.
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While I can't say I agree or disagree on a fairly ambigious subject involving fictional characters in a video game who are, in this case, heavily drafted from one of the greatest military legends of the 20th Century - I can say that while a rampaging murder spree on Telamon would've been noticed - it would've been a far lesser ordeal if it used more "common" meathods. The final blow was the use of a weapon type banned from the Kilrathi War. So you're not only murdering people at random - but it suddenly becomes obvious that there was no justification of such an attack, considering a biological weapon was deployed.

Delance said:
Tolwyn's objective in Telamon was to test the gen-select bioweapon. He couldn't do that with marines, because he couldn't perform his genocidal plan for mankind with marines. In fact, the Black Lance developed the bioweapon because it would be too hard murder billions of people using soldiers.
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I agree completely. All I'm saying that if there was no GenSelect (or other banned) weapon used - Tolwyn might not have taken the fall.

Delance said:
Maybe they did have fun with it, and hated the people there, but the whole reason it was attacked because it’s was just a suitable location for a test. This is no speculation, it’s cleary and repeatedly states on the game.

Tolwyn: “We have a tool to do the job”.
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Well - the book paints Tolwyn a shade different than the obviously overdriven Nazi characature found in the game. The truth probably is somewhere between the two.
 
I wouldn't compare Hitler to Tolwyn, he didn't select who he killed. He killed indiscriminately those who wouldn't be fit to survive the coming onslaught. I believe, in the end of the book, it hints that Tolwyn knew about what was coming. That another war with a more brutal enemy was in the works.

The infrastructure necessary to the war wouldn't have suffered. The station Blair infilitrated, I believe, was described as self-sufficient. They had scientists, robots, and the people that were left would have been the cream of the crop. Just as an example, Seether almost took on both Blair and Maniac. The Gen pilots would have been very good.

Truly, I don't think it can be seen whether Tolwyn's plan was really flawed until after the end of the Nephilim plot line. If everyone dies anyways, then maybe Tolwyn wasn't in the wrong. Maybe humanity was too weak.

Enh, the guy was a psycho, but it is Sci-Fi. Isn't everyone in Sci-fi a psycho of some form?
 
LeHah said:
Well - the book paints Tolwyn a shade different than the obviously overdriven Nazi characature found in the game. The truth probably is somewhere between the two.
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The book gives Tolwyn are more humane view, perhaps, but it doesn't change the fundamental point that he was willing to commit any crime to pursue his objectives, as the leader of a totalitarian faction.

And if you think "morality is bullshit" you shouldn't be debating on this at all. Actually, it's a stupid thing to say since you basically legitimize anyone to do any horrible thing to you, since it wouldn't be wrong or anything.
 
I think the problem with our entire discussion is that we're talking about truths instead of facts.
 
I do agree that the particular point is not very usefull anyway. That, and argueing with Lehah ranks high in my dumb things to do list. IMHO, the real point here is: the horrendous actions tolwyn had planned completely overshadow any previous military accomplishment. The fact that he was a hero has nothing to do with the fact that he intended to kill the vast majority of the human race, sparing those he saw fit.

Even if he was right, he never had the right to impose this on the rest of the human race.
 
I'm not sure if I agree with you. MacArthur was adament on nuking Korea - something that definitely had it's share of pros and cons.
 
Having the opinion is one thing. Going through with it is another.

MacArthur never got a nuke and aimed it at Korea regardless of his orders.
 
If I remember correctly, he wanted several "small" ones to drop on several major cities without totally destroying the country. I'm fairly certain if he had the ability to, he would've at least "gone through the motions" and threatened Korea with them.
 
And he wanted to make a radioactive no man's land using nuclear waste that China would have had to cross to send supplies and reenforcements into N. Korea. Mac rocked.
 
and whats the difference in throwing nuclear bombs in cities from killing people in gas chambers?

the point is, was used to work in a very different way until a few decades ago. It was a strategic maneuver to flatten a city with a bomber squadron or waves of flying bombs, no matter if you wanted to provoke genocide or not

I see Mac Arthurs idea (as stupid as it is) to show only that his mentality was still 'stuck' in that period of time, and that McGruff should be shot for his comment. Im sure you would love to see, say, China turning half your country in a radioactive wasteland just to be sure no one can reach them
 
Slightly more back to the topic, it would've been interesting to see how WC4 would have turned out if Tolwyn (and the plot) wouldn't have gone overboard with the biological weapons. Just inciting a war between Confederation and Border Worlds would still have served the "strong shall survive" agenda. Would have made things a lot less black and white too.
 
Dingo said:
I wouldn't compare Hitler to Tolwyn, he didn't select who he killed. He killed indiscriminately those who wouldn't be fit to survive the coming onslaught.
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well that is why its logical to compare hitler to tolwyn.

why? well hitler thought the jews, homos and anyone other than german was of inferior stock and should be cleared for the germans. (similar to clearing way for superior stock i guess)

also, even more petinent to this discussion, he had an active eugenics program. if you dont know what that means, it was a program where defective babies were exterminated. the program was also extended years later to adults who were "euthanised" or "sterilised" etc. (yes even the "aryan" germans)

so, yeah... very similar to what tolwyn was trying to do, hence the inevitable comparison.
 
Kalfor said:
I see Mac Arthurs idea (as stupid as it is) to show only that his mentality was still 'stuck' in that period of time
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MacArthur was many things - an egotist, a disturbed human being, the kinda guy who kept his mom on ice in the mourge for years until he could bury her in America - but the last thing he was was stupid.
 
It's amazing how badly the thread generates once Nazis are brought into it. Godwin's Law, anyone?

I haven't seen this much stupidity since the last ship-creation thread.
 
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