Admiral Tolwyn- Madman or military savior?

The difference in Tolwyn in the games and the books is because of who's POV we are looking through. In the games we are looking from Blair's, who Tolwyn dislikes because of the TC incident, although in SO2 he does come around, but in wc3 he seems slightly back to old Tolwyn (the result of the stress of BOT and taking over Behemoth maybe?).

In the novels we are looking through mostly the eyes of Bondarevsky, who Tolwyn sees as a son after the Gettysburg incident and the Tarawa raid. Both have a deep respect for each other and Bondarevsky looks up to Tolwyn until the Behemoth raid when he loses his arm on the Conventry. After that he has a different view of Tolwyn not only from the raid but also from the events preceeding and during FC.

In WC4 we see Tolwyn after he has taken over the SRA and most likely stopped Belarius, although he seems to have his own coup in mind. In FC you can watch Tolwyn crack then return to his normal self during the Karga raid, then after it's over and he returns to Confed he once again returns to a shadowy character that he had become after Behemoth....
 
I don't think this POV deal makes such a difference. We see what Tolwyn says and what he does in 1st hand, it's not a a book told in Blair's PoV. HE is actually saying those words and doing those things. Blair's opinion of Tolwyn is unimportant, it is our own opinion that matters.

All in all, the real PoVs that clash are Chris Roberts' and the writers'. For all we know Roberts sees Tolwyn as a bad guy while Forstchen & company would rather have him as the misunderstood hero.
 
I would have to disagree, Tolwyn acts very different in the company of Richards, Bondarevsky and Kruger then in the company of Blair or Eisen. If disliked someone for 10 years don't you think it would be hard to be buddy buddy with them no matter what they did to save the entire human race?
 
And what does that have to do with what I wrote?
I'm not talking of Tolwyng being nasty with Blair, i'm refering to his attitude. His raving mad speeches where he preaches the genocide of 90% of the Human Race, and the way he behaved when in the Victory. So what if he was nice to Bear? The ever so mentioned Hitler was probably quite nice to Goebels.
 
Poor Tolwyn.... poor poor poor soul-less madman of a leader

*sigh* I always felt sorrow for him when I see him hanging there by--what?--bed sheets.

Well, as for this PoV thing, it can be said that we are more or less seeing through Bondvasky's PoV because he is the one telling the story in the books; but as for the game, we can see Tolwyn's actions and hear his words first-hand.
 
Yeah, I feel sorry for him too. After all, he was nice to Bear, we should just let go of this whole genocide shenannigans and give him another chance, what is several billion lives compared to a father-son relationship.
 
I think one of the best insights into Tolwyn can be found at the very end of FC...it not only shows how highly Tolwyn thinks of Bondarevsky but also shows that he does realize that what he is doing is not right, yet he feels that he has to go through it....

I don't have FC handy otherwise I would post the quote...if someone can I think it's either on the last page or 2nd to last when Tolwyn is talking to Bondarevsky and he thinks to himself "would jason approve of what I'm going to do?" or something to that effect....
 
On WCIV Tolwyn smiles while defending murder of millions with biological weapons. On this scene he displays no duality, no hint of sadness.

Usually, the will to commit mass murder to push forward one’s ideology is not displayed in such open way, but it’s there if you search for it. The problem happens when a group makes up some stupid plan to improve the world and decides that, towards that goal, anything goes. The end justifies the means.

In fact, even today there are groups advocate that conventional morality based on religion, or even common decency, is inherently false or evil, and the only measure of ethics is if a fact does or does not help their cause. They would accept genocide as “good” to meet their goal, and consider anyone who tries to stop them “evil”, with a smile on their face, just like Towlyn.

And also like him they believe, or at least convinced themselves by indoctrination and self-illusion, that they absolutely knew what was best for mankind, and they had every right to do anything to archive that goal. No questioning of their “ultimate truth” is accepted, and so are any rules to what they can or can’t do to meet this objective. That part of WCIV was very real, and if you care to read a bit on the “inside” of certain groups, some of which might even appear noble on the surface, you would be shocked.

The bottom line is that the fact that Tolwyn believed that he was doing the right thing doesn’t change anything. People willing to do monstrous things might convince themselves that it’s not really evil, but that doesn’t mitigate their actions.
 
Tolywn was a complete "military savior"... whatever that is... it was just that his choice of weapons is what sealed his fate. If he had simply sent in a detachment of soldiers to Telamon and called it a "policing action" or "riot control", he'd have gotten his knuckles rapped.
 
considering the current situation in the US and the world for that matter I have to say I agree with you totally LeHah
 
I wouldn't compare Tolwyn with Hitler.
Hitler was a a frustrated man that wanted power and particularly acknowledgment. He wasn't a military genius. As he took over the military command during the campaign against Russia he made an error after the other one.
Tolwyn was more like Patton. To men like Blair it seems that Tolwyn is only interested "to finish the work" regardless of all losses. In the WC4 we see a broken man. He saw too many people die and he wasn't successful in ending this war with Behemoth. I think that was the reason why he became so cold and inhuman.
 
considering the current situation in the US and the world for that matter I have to say I agree with you totally LeHah
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Yeah, but if it *weren't* for the "current situation in the US", then LeHah would be completely wrong about a fictional computer game.
 
Well, the genselect device was an integral part of Tolwyn’s objectives. The purpose of the Telamon “operation” was to test this weapon, so a detachment of soldiers would be meaningless. Tolwyn was no military savior on WC4, his goal was social engineering. People seem to forget that Tolwyn didn’t just want to change mankind on a genetic level, but also on a social one.
 
Dundradal said:
considering the current situation in the US and the world for that matter I have to say I agree with you totally LeHah
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Last time I checked, no one anywhere has used noxious gases that alter DNA.
 
Lehah, that was pretty nonsense. It doesn't even touch the subject... Tolwyn didn't chose the weapon, he rather had the weapond he need created. He HAD to MURDER 90% of humankind to reach his goal, therefore he HAD to fund the research and creation of a weapon that would do just that. He'd never plan the greatest mass murder in all of history by employing execution squads.

This exactly the same thing that happened with the Concentration Camps in WWII... The Nazis weren't evil because they chose to industrially kill the jews in the gas chambers. they were evil because they decided to wipe the jews from the face of Earth in the first place. the gass chambers were "just" the most "efficient" method they could think of. Shooting them wouldn't be economically feasible.

Botton lin is: it doesn't matter which weapon you choose, it is your objective that matters...

Telamon was just a test for the Genselect. Tolwyn had no other practical use to its extermination. It would make no sense to kill its population with any other method.
 
I have to lean towards 'Tolwyn as Madman' still - he MAY have wanted to save the human race, but he'd gone completely around the bend with his method of doing so. Then again, given some of the stuff he'd gone through at the hands of the politicians over the years as well as the other acknowledged enemy...
 
Haess, have you completely not read my previous post? Tolwyn probably convinced himself that he was indeed saving the human race, and that's why he felt entitled to commit genocide. For what other reason would he do it?

But his loyalty was not to Confed, but to his warped view of how he had to “improve” mankind genetically and socially in order to “save it”. It’s plan would require mass murder and several crimes that are in no way acceptable to someone loyal to Confed. However, to someone who fanatically believes in some crazy theory on how to improve mankind, conventional morality and lawshave no meaning, are mere obstacles to be surpassed and used against their enemies. Tolwyn’s faction did use the very laws and morality they didn’t obey into trying manipulate the rest of Confed into doing their biding.

Tolwyn skillfully tries to manipulate and deceive Blair with his “loyalty speech”, and he does the same thing on the Senate. Laws, loyalty and any moral sentiment are just tools he have to use to fulfill his goals. It's basically the same with other totalitarian movements. He orders an atrocity, and then uses this to provoke a reaction to further manipulate society into his plot.

Tolwyn was not born without regard to human life, but that was a requirement for the plan he wanted to impose to all mankind. What I’m not entirely sure is if he came up with this idea by his own, or if he was indoctrinated by some Black Lance folks. Seether mentions that Tolwyn has found them, but does he mean the G.E. program or the whole Black Lance?
 
Edfilho said:
Lehah, that was pretty nonsense. It doesn't even touch the subject... Tolwyn didn't chose the weapon, he rather had the weapond he need created. He HAD to MURDER 90% of humankind to reach his goal, therefore he HAD to fund the research and creation of a weapon that would do just that. He'd never plan the greatest mass murder in all of history by employing execution squads.
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You miss my point entirely. If he simply went down to Telamon and killed everyone using Marines, he could've fenced it off as a policing action. You can't say that with a biological agent. This being said - his way of killing of Telamon was the error, not the actual act it's self.

Edfilho said:
This exactly the same thing that happened with the Concentration Camps in WWII... The Nazis weren't evil because they chose to industrially kill the jews in the gas chambers. they were evil because they decided to wipe the jews from the face of Earth in the first place. the gass chambers were "just" the most "efficient" method they could think of. Shooting them wouldn't be economically feasible.
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While the heavy-handed "HE'S A SPACE NAZI! AND HE'S WEARING BLACK!" evidence is definitely there, you're attempting to compare the greatest tragedy of the 20th Century to an act of CGI in a video game from a number of years ago.

Please try again or dial the operator for assistance. This is a recording - 20368.

Edfilho said:
Botton lin is: it doesn't matter which weapon you choose, it is your objective that matters...
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Thank you, President Truman </Sarcasm>

Edfilho said:
It would make no sense to kill its population with any other method.
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That, my feathered friend, is a matter of opinion.
 
just thought i should say:

I am teh MADMAN!!!!! (l33t0R)

or something,...

anyway point is, im the madman (obviously) and im not admiral tolwyn... just thought i should point that out. so he must be a military "savior" - whatever that is.
 
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