A stupid discussion by stupid people

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As far as education goes, just imagine yourself talking about WW2 and a third of the kids(Immigrants have a far higher birth rate of children then native dutch) stand up and say"Hitler was a good man because he killed many jews", and having to work from there, and being unable to correct them without getting your carwindows smashed in. (I used the spoiler to mask something some would rather not read). Our own laws allow them to speak and insult others because of their background, and as a teacher you would need to deal with that, and are powerless.

Mace, are you actually a teacher in the Netherlands?

Why am I asking this? Well the story you tell sounds made up or at least vastly exaggerated. For once, I thought the Dutch educational system was quite good. Secondly, I know there are many immigrants in the Netherlands, but one third of the children still sounds like a too high percentage, "high birth rate" or not. Third, you are suggesting all Immigrants are anti-semitic, and not only this, but their families are involved in organized crime, which also is directed against school-teachers who don't teach what they want (while I think they propably would have "better" things to care about). And lastly, the part about the laws allowing them to speak bullshit and insult others "because of their background" sounds made up or at least appears to be based on a misunderstanding of a real law.

So, if you really are a Dutch teacher and your story is real, I apologize and also am shocked about these conditions, which I never would have imagined. But for now I won't believe it, and would say it's propably hearsay, vastly exaggerated, maybe even riddled with right-wing propaganda.
 
So, if you really are a Dutch teacher and your story is real, I apologize and also am shocked about these conditions, which I never would have imagined. But for now I won't believe it, and would say it's propably hearsay, vastly exaggerated, maybe even riddled with right-wing propaganda.

Well you have to understand that there is a lot of hearsay and exaggeration in this thread. In fact thats what it's based on. Not sure where the right-wing propaganda comes from... that seems a bit out of left field.

As for the person who made the accusation in the opening of the thread, I really let them have it saying that they were pathetic for using present hatreds to pervert the great deeds of those past... she didn't like that very much.
 
Mace, are you actually a teacher in the Netherlands?

Why am I asking this? Well the story you tell sounds made up or at least vastly exaggerated. For once, I thought the Dutch educational system was quite good. Secondly, I know there are many immigrants in the Netherlands, but one third of the children still sounds like a too high percentage, "high birth rate" or not. Third, you are suggesting all Immigrants are anti-semitic, and not only this, but their families are involved in organized crime, which also is directed against school-teachers who don't teach what they want (while I think they propably would have "better" things to care about). And lastly, the part about the laws allowing them to speak bullshit and insult others "because of their background" sounds made up or at least appears to be based on a misunderstanding of a real law.

So, if you really are a Dutch teacher and your story is real, I apologize and also am shocked about these conditions, which I never would have imagined. But for now I won't believe it, and would say it's propably hearsay, vastly exaggerated, maybe even riddled with right-wing propaganda.

I'm not a teacher(I have been a teacher's assistent and system administrator in a school), two of my brothers are teachers, one in a junior high, another in a highschool, and of course not all immigrants are antisementic, and there is a large difference with "organized crime". As for them being able to speak their mind and breaking the law, it is officially forbidden, but the charges are dropped or eased because of their cultural background, usually punishments are very mild here already, and attracts criminals also. I could give you hundreds of examples of cultural clashes(even inbetween different immigrant groups) from the past decade, and those are facts, not some form of rightwinged propoganda, but that is not something to be discussed here on this forum.
 
I could give you hundreds of examples of cultural clashes(even inbetween different immigrant groups) from the past decade, and those are facts, not some form of rightwinged propoganda, but that is not something to be discussed here on this forum.

Yeah sadly those culture clashes happen everywhere. A good example here in the US would be working in Child services... bear with me on this for a sec. Unfortunately most of the kids that get brought in are minority and/or first gen american kids. It's sad, it's not PC but it is what it is.

Talk about a culture clash, a lot of the people who get involved in this type of thing are people who A. Want to try to give something back and/or come from a different background then these kids. So the cultures clash. I remember one meeting I had to attend to was to deal with "cultural sensativity." One of the things mentioned was the kids blaring music at high volume with a subwoofer attached. Totally inappropriate for a concert hall, let alone a small room. But we were told that we can't punish the kid for that.

So naturally, being the guy who speaks his mind I get up and said, "Ok, well I hope that explanation for letting the kids run amuck keeps you warm at night, because it wont stop me for suing you after I lose my hearing."

Personally, I don't think regions or countrys should adapt themselves to fit different cultures at all. There should be a set of rules in place, based on whomever is in power and/or who founded the country in the first place, and if you can't live by those rules, leave. Maybe that sounds a bit arrogant, but you start doing things like trying to adapt to please everyone, and stuff like this starts to happen.

So yeah, stupid culture clashes are just unavoidable, but I do agree with has nothing to do with right/left wing,

mini rant over.
 
Almost,

@prometheus, here look at an official statement from today:

http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/tech/2010/05/ahmed_marcouch_wil_dat_de.html (you can use an online translator to convert it)

Since translation sites does not fully translate every word correctly, or with the original intention, i did fill out the blanks and mistranslated words worldlingo and babelfish make:

"Ahmed Marcouch wants to make the Holocaust as soon as possible a required subject in highschool exams. he is concerned of the lack of knowledge with students about the what happened to the Jewish in WW2. Teachers are faced with careless, offensive and disrepectfull attitudes from students.

Those students, often loyal viewers of Arab media newschannels, associate it with current middle eastern conflicts, according to mr. Marcouch, they say the "The Jews are doing bad things in the middle east as well''. They also are raised by their parents with antisemistic thoughts and values, and learn to use the term Jew as an insult. They are also unaware of the impact the holocaust had on dutch society."
 
http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/tech/2010/05/ahmed_marcouch_wil_dat_de.html (you can use an online translator to convert it)

"Ahmed Marcouch wants to make the Holocaust as soon as possible a required subject in highschool exams. he is concerned of the lack of knowledge with students about the what happened to the Jewish in WW2. Teachers are faced with careless, offensive and disrepectfull attitudes from students.


It's about freaken time! The holocaust was being pulled from the books in countries like Britain, and even in FL in the United States... why? Not to offend muslim students was the best explanation I got. Now we see the problem with PC.
 
Frosty, there is no use of any things to use religion as an explenation of being a turd.
Enlightenment in western europe has learned us to think for ourselves, and see any holy book only as a guide, not as a book of laws. Those who live by " the book" are idiots in my opinion, because they do not fit in the world as it is today. But I have never seen an amish or an orthodox jew threatening people based on their religion.

This is however not the place of discussion, feel free to ad me to MSN or mypsace or something if you want to discover this further.
 
Nothing says "I'm enlightened" like saying that people who think differently from me are idiots.
 
Well, cleary, before Voltaire came around, nobody every though for himself in the history of the world.:confused:
 
Enlightenment in western europe has learned us to think for ourselves, and see any holy book only as a guide, not as a book of laws. Those who live by " the book" are idiots in my opinion, because they do not fit in the world as it is today.
Clearly then, that makes me an idiot.

...No, wait, I'm worse - I'm not even an idiot. I'm someone who keeps trying, and failing, to be a true idiot.

However - just in case you want to back out of what you said with some silly "I didn't mean to offend anyone"... don't bother, because I take no offense when someone like you calls me an idiot :). You come from a country that - as even you seem to have noticed - has shown us all exactly where "enlightenment" leads. To nowhere. You have made it legal and acceptable to kill the unborn, you have made it legal and acceptable to kill your grandparents... your country has turned its back on everything that once made you great. You, here in this thread, you talk about all those terrible things that immigrants do in your country, but have you ever asked yourself - why would anyone respect your traditions and heritage when you yourself disregard it as idiocy? There's some huge irony that in this thread, you first show some awareness of the terrible decline of your country... and then say that anyone who does not follow in your footsteps is an idiot. Maybe it's time to wake up, Mace - the path you're on ain't looking too great.
 
However - just in case you want to back out of what you said with some silly "I didn't mean to offend anyone"... don't bother, because I take no offense when someone like you calls me an idiot . You come from a country that - as even you seem to have noticed - has shown us all exactly where "enlightenment" leads. To nowhere. You have made it legal and acceptable to kill the unborn, you have made it legal and acceptable to kill your grandparents... your country has turned its back on everything that once made you great. You, here in this thread, you talk about all those terrible things that immigrants do in your country, but have you ever asked yourself - why would anyone respect your traditions and heritage when you yourself disregard it as idiocy? There's some huge irony that in this thread, you first show some awareness of the terrible decline of your country... and then say that anyone who does not follow in your footsteps is an idiot. Maybe it's time to wake up, Mace - the path you're on ain't looking too great.

Well, first of all abortion is not our invention. It is legal here, and there are many reasons for parents to decide to kill their unborn, and not so few in favor of the child(being unable to care for it).

As for Euthanasia(which i think you are referring to), people themselves have the ability to choose to end their life, not their relatives, and even then it is a legal procedure that takes a long time, it is not like you can buy one of those pills in the supermarket overhere and shove it down you grandmothers throat.

As for referring to any religion based person as an idiot, I do not. I'm not backing out, but i simply wanted to state that anyone who uses notes from a book written 500, 1000 years or longer ago as a RULEBOOK, not a guide. (You might have considered the use of "Nephilim" in WCP as sacrilege). People who live their lives in the name of religion generally do not contribute to (our) society.

Ofcourse this is just my opinion.
 
Your opinion is stupid.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is stupid, and an idiot. Actually he is the perfect example of why fanatic religion causes issues. But I know you are too smart to identify yourself with him, and i do hope it is just a joke.
 
Well, first of all abortion is not our invention.
I don't much care who invented it - if the rest of the world practiced it, it would still be the ultimate crime for you to do the same. But the Netherlands actually have taken this practice further than anyone else - you've gone from merely killing the unborn to killing the born, too. You've made it possible to kill infants based on the same criteria that you use for the unborn. Worse still, you don't even respect your own laws - when it was first revealed that various doctors euthanased infants, nobody even tried to press charges against them, in spite of the fact that under the laws you had at the time (this was two or three years ago), they were guilty of first-degree murder.

As for Euthanasia(which i think you are referring to), people themselves have the ability to choose to end their life, not their relatives, and even then it is a legal procedure that takes a long time, it is not like you can buy one of those pills in the supermarket overhere and shove it down you grandmothers throat.
The Remmelink Commission - there were at least 1,000 cases of patients being without a request of their own. And that was in 1990 - by now, with euthanasia even more widely accepted by the doctors, those statistics would be sharply higher.

People who live their lives in the name of religion generally do not contribute to (our) society.
I call your bluff - how about if I provide a list of all the things that explicitly religious people (monks, priests, etc., but also secular people who are simply known to be religious) have contributed to society, while you provide a list of all the things that explicitly atheist people have contributed? We'll see which list is longer.

Offhand, let me just point out that Copernicus was a priest, Newton and Pasteur were highly religious, Einstein (though himself not especially religious) attended a Catholic school... oh, heck, you know what? I don't have the time to waste on such details. The whole darned educational system in the western world was set up by the Church. Cambridge, Oxford, the Sorbonne - take any respected European university, and you will see it was either founded by the clergy, or at least run by the clergy. Most schools, up until two or three hundred years ago, were run by the clergy - and today, the best private schools still are run by the clergy. Virtually all hospitals were originally set up and run by Catholic nuns. It's not a case of the religious "contributing" this or that to society - no, without religion, our society just plain would not exist. And when I say that, I'm not talking about people who are more or less religious - I am talking about people who have put religion at the very centre of their lives.

Oh, and just so we're clear about this - any way you look at it, I am a religious fanatic. Notice how I'm talking to you, presenting actual arguments - while you, the "enlightened", merely resort to calling people like me idiots without any attempt to justify it?
 
Dear Quarto, abortion is legal in our country, and has been for a long time. But thesame as with euthanasia, there are very strict rules for it. The elderly do have a choice to terminate their lives, but this is a long procedure. The only current example of any patient who was terminated quickly by his own request was a 20 year old man that was beaten near-death and awoke after a coma from a week being paralized from the neck down, he made a request and his life was terminated in three days. In the other cases it takes several months to make a decision for this, and in case the person him/herself is not able to speak(comatose), the direct family has the decision to terminate their life(this has to go through court procedures, takes three months and f not everyone agrees there is room to go to a higher court or even the european general court).

I checked the source (remmelink) you are referring to, concerning the investigations of Erasmus, while valid, these numbers include the "angel of death", a nurse who worked in a senior home, who killed elderly persons on their request(or so she says). She was imprisoned with murder charges. The article you linked not even makes the half of this story, and the way it was written i can see that your interpretation is different.

I do not defend abortion, but some people just can't raise a kid(either emotionly or financially) and it would ruin the kid's future life, would you like to be an unwanted kid? You and I have access to different media and resources, and I believe you do not have a clear vision on the way things work around here.

As for your reference to important people and the Catholic Church's educational system, if you know your history, you know there was a procedure called "Christianization", that basicly enforced that religion on others against their will. In trade they offered education and shelter to those people who were willing to covert. I went to a catholic school myself(even protestants attended that school because there was NOTHING else around) Public school projects only came after I finished highschool. Many discoveries(like Darwin's theory), would never have been discussed because it conflicts with the Bible, so I do not consider those people you mentioned fanatic, because even there in biology class the theory is adressed. This(the idea of opposing your basic beliefs to be considered a crime), is what in my opinion holds people back.

And you are correct in christian schools being the best teachers, but that does not conclude the fact that religious schools are good, While Cristian, and hindu schools are good, correct and driven, muslim schools suck.. badly, even compared to public schools.

In my opinion(atheist), a religion is something you should be able to choose, and not something to be enforced on you.

As for you being a religous fanatic, I do not consider someone who goes to church and prays a fanatic more likely an enthousiast, Fanatic I mean the guys like Bin Laden, The killer of Theo van Gogh, and the guys who threaten Southpark and Danish Cartoonists.
 
Dear Quarto, abortion is legal in our country, and has been for a long time.
Why do you bother saying this? Evil will always be evil - no matter if it's legal, and no matter how long it's been legal.

The thing that bothers me the most about abortion is that of all the people who defend it, not one could actually be subjected to it. It's reasonable to discuss the pros and cons of the death penalty, because it is implicit that everyone in favour of the death penalty acknowledge that, if they committed murder, they would also be subjected to it. But with abortion - not one of the people in favour of abortion could ever be aborted, obviously. It's safe for you to talk about how in this or that situation abortion could be justifiable - because you know it doesn't apply to you.

In truth, I doubt that there are really any people out there who are, totally and honestly, in favour of abortion as a principle. When they talk about the goodness of killing someone for their own good (try saying that out loud, by the way. "I want to murder you for your own good." When you say it out loud, it might finally occur to you how ridiculous it is to combine "murder you" and "for your own good" in one sentence)... when they talk about killing children "for their own good", they're not arguing on a theoretical basis that would apply to everyone. They're arguing on a practical basis that would apply to only those who have no say in the matter, for the convenience of those who do have a say.

Would I like to be an unwanted kid, you ask - did you even think about that question for a split second? Did you seriously consider that the alternative is being a dead kid? I don't think I need to even bother explaining which option I personally find preferable. And if you think about it for at least a moment, I'm sure you'll realise that anyone who has yet to be born, if only they had a say in the matter, would prefer to be born and draw their own conclusions about whether life is worth living.

As you can see, I'm trying to argue with logic here, without bothering to lecture you about my beliefs. What would be the point of me yammering on about the sanctity of life and the fact that nobody has the right to kill anyone else? I know that wouldn't convince you. But I also don't think I need to convince you - because deep down, you do believe in the sanctity of life [your life], and you do believe that nobody has the right to kill [you]. So, all I need to say is that if you apply this principle to yourself, but you refuse to apply it to others, especially those who aren't even capable of defending themselves - then I'm allowed to refuse to respect this principle in your regard. From a logical point of view, you're granting me the right to kill you - for your own good, of course :).

...And this is, of course, exactly what happened with euthanasia. It started off with people who wanted to commit suicide. That's normal, there's always a few people like that. But then, the next stage was granting people the right to help others commit suicide - and the result was only too predictable. If putting people out of their misery is a presented as a good and noble deed, it's not in the least surprising that some doctors went a step further, and decided to be... you know, altruist. If killing suffering people is actually doing them a favour, then clearly, it doesn't matter if they requested it or not. If anything, killing someone who didn't request it is actually an even nobler deed - because you know you're doing it out of the sheer goodness of your heart, rather than for money or gratitude. You talk about this "angel of death" as an abnormality in an otherwise decent system - but it's not an abnormality. It's the natural and logical conclusion.

Here's some more reading materials for you - one page, another page. There's all kinds of interesting statistics out there - for example, that most euthanasia cases are actually not reported as euthanasia (so much for procedures, eh?), and that 80 infants are euthanised each year. That is, of course, patently illegal, and as such it must be murder - but as the Prins case (mentioned on the Remmelink page) showed, your courts are perfectly willing to ignore the law, refusing to punish someone found guilty of murder. Again - how do you think a society that praises "altruist" murderers can develop further down the line?

As for your reference to important people and the Catholic Church's educational system, if you know your history, you know there was a procedure called "Christianization", that basicly enforced that religion on others against their will. In trade they offered education and shelter to those people who were willing to covert.
Ah. So, they "enforced" religion "against their will" on people who were... "willing to convert"? Great logic :).

...But seriously. I'm a Catholic - I believe in the Original Sin. I believe that all humans are flawed, sinful creatures. I believe that without God, we have no chance of being good. So, I will certainly not disagree with you about Christians doing wrong things at times - Christians are humans, it's in our nature to sin. No disagreement there.

However - for every bad thing that Christians did, I can point out thousands of good things. Atheism, meanwhile, brings nothing good onto the table. When atheism finally started playing a role in society, in the 20th century, the result was carnage unparallelled at any time in history. There were, on the other hand, no benefits. Look at your own society - can you possibly not see that as long as the Netherlands were religious, your society grew and prospered... and now as more and more Dutch abandon religion, your society is declining?

This(the idea of opposing your basic beliefs to be considered a crime), is what in my opinion holds people back.
But that's precisely what atheist society is doing. My basic beliefs, as a Catholic, are considered a crime. We had a case in Poland recently where the court ruled that even if Catholics consider abortion to be murder, they do not have the right to refer to someone who committed abortion as a murderer - because that's offensive. In other words, you are allowed to murder children, but I'm not allowed to say what I think about that, because you might feel offended.

And you are correct in christian schools being the best teachers, but that does not conclude the fact that religious schools are good, While Cristian, and hindu schools are good, correct and driven, muslim schools suck.. badly, even compared to public schools.
I don't know what Muslim schools are like today. I don't know what Hindu schools are like today (though medieval Islamic universities contributed a lot to science and philosophy!). It doesn't matter. What I do know is that it's thanks to Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Confucian and whatever-else schools that society has developed to where it is today.

Let's be very, very clear about this - humans have always been religious. Our oldest archaological findings confirm that. The human race didn't build its civilisations in spite of those evil religious fanatics - it did it thanks to them. In this context, atheism is basically a cancer that destroys healthy society, without contributing anything positive of its own. It only takes a brief look at history to realise that "atheist civilisation" is an oxymoron - something that cannot exist, because rather than being the crowning achievement of philosphical thought that atheists claim it to be, atheism is in fact a disease that brings civilisation to a halt.

As for you being a religous fanatic, I do not consider someone who goes to church and prays a fanatic more likely an enthousiast, Fanatic I mean the guys like Bin Laden, The killer of Theo van Gogh, and the guys who threaten Southpark and Danish Cartoonists.
Well, that's tough. I obviously can't claim to be a fanatic when your definition of a fanatic seems to be "Muslim terrorist". Are there any Christians you consider fanatics? I need to know what I should be aiming for :p.
 
As you can see, I'm trying to argue with logic here, without bothering to lecture you about my beliefs.

No your not, you sound like a catholic priest. It's not directly what you say but in the use of your words.

First off. considering something "evil", makes it a religious statement, Abortion can be applied legally in the first three months here, after that it is a courts decision. If you say those people would not have had to have sex in the first place, you are right. However teen pregnancy or parents who are not willing or capable to care of their child it should be possible to avoid these conflicts. Euthanasia is available only to those who are severed in a way that they can no longer lead a normal live and they are very, very unhappy with themselves.

As for making a decision on life or death, do you have a cat? did you have it sterilized? Do you know if it agreed with your decision?(In my opinion a human is equal to an animal in this manner)

Here's some more reading materials for you
I read this, and there is nothing inthere i do not know, and it does not shock me, at least not in a way (i think) it does you.

Our oldest archaological findings confirm that.
How old is the earth according to you? And you do think dinosaurs are fake?

And you are right about people always being religious in some manner, but as you avoided the subject of christianization completely, you might want to look into it, if your religion allows you that freedom. There were Pagan religions(Multiple gods, nature) around here and in your country back then, and people where violently coverted. These cultures had their own principles and beliefs and Christianity decided to "erase them from history"(You might consider this a form of euthanasia too actually: Who says your religion is any better then other ones and gives you the right to intervene here?)

Forced religion("if you do not do this and this you will burn in hell/go to heave/get 70 virgins")was needed to control primitive people(being afraid of their gods), but every society had one. It might be the priest, shaman, the local wich or voodoo priest, but there will always be someone to teach things, in any society. As for muslim and scholars, they did very little themselves that was not invented also around thesame time or earlier in another place in the world.

We had a case in Poland recently where the court ruled that even if Catholics consider abortion to be murder, they do not have the right to refer to someone who committed abortion as a murderer - because that's offensive.
As in calling abortion murder, you are damn right it is. We do agree on that one. Forcefull termination of a live is murder, however the doctor in this case was only doing his job and should not be adressed as a "murderer", the murderers here are the ones who decided to terminate the life, and it probably was a very hard decision on them to, and they wil feel bad for it, every day of their lives, unless they are really, really bad people. And in your thoughts you can call people whatever you want to.


Are there any Christians you consider fanatics?
As in applying large scale violence? not really. Things "fanatic" cristians do here is object to bands playing or organizing a music festival that is "uncristian" (It's not like they would be attending anyway?), I did see a group of (mostly elderly) people freaking out when when "bibelot" was created(An old abondoned church that was rebuild into a concert hall), but that was only verbal violence. Oh wait, a friend of mine did get beat up once when he was unloading his car by three guys because he had an "evil" version of the jesus-fish(you probably have one on your car), because the fish had feet and "darwin" was spelled in letters inside it, but this i would consider being something small and the acts of a few idiots ;).
 
RE: abortion in general

Might want to sit down for this. If you white people stopped aborting all your babies because it'd be a burden to raise a dozen or two children, you wouldn't be overrun by sand monsters hating on your Jews and demolishing your cars, would you? Who's the real idiot here? They're reproducing and you aren't. At the rate enlightened white people go, you think you'll be around in a thousand years? The extinct don't mean a damn thing. Ask the dodo.

In my opinion a human is equal to an animal in this manner.

Yes, scientifically we are mammals. But why do you bother waking up and doing anything each day? What's the point? Why don't we just sleep and screw and forget about all that other useless garbage. The animal kingdom has no use for any of this culture and civilization nonsense.

How old is the earth according to you? And you do think dinosaurs are fake?

There is a dinosaur in the Bible. Not kidding here, bro. Not like you care though, am I right?

And you are right about people always being religious in some manner, but as you avoided the subject of christianization completely, you might want to look into it, if your religion allows you that freedom. There were Pagan religions(Multiple gods, nature) around here and in your country back then, and people where violently coverted. These cultures had their own principles and beliefs and Christianity decided to "erase them from history"(You might consider this a form of euthanasia too actually: Who says your religion is any better then other ones and gives you the right to intervene here?)

But here you sit trying to force atheism on Christians and Muslims, heralding your enlightenment as the one true... uh... way.

Forced religion("if you do not do this and this you will burn in hell/go to heave/get 70 virgins")was needed to control primitive people(being afraid of their gods), but every society had one.

By this reasoning the Greeks were neanderthals.

As in calling abortion murder, you are damn right it is. We do agree on that one. Forcefull termination of a live is murder, however the doctor in this case was only doing his job and should not be adressed as a "murderer", the murderers here are the ones who decided to terminate the life, and it probably was a very hard decision on them to, and they wil feel bad for it, every day of their lives, unless they are really, really bad people. And in your thoughts you can call people whatever you want to.

By this reasoning the men who ran the gulags and concentration camps were totally innocent.

Oh wait, a friend of mine did get beat up once when he was unloading his car by three guys because he had an "evil" version of the jesus-fish(you probably have one on your car), because the fish had feet and "darwin" was spelled in letters inside it, but this i would consider being something small and the acts of a few idiots ;).

People get out of cars and murder each other over stoplights and traffic jams in my city. Violence happens.
 
t.c.cgi, in a thread full of people being asses, your last post puts you in the lead, especially the first part.

That's not something to be proud of.
 
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