A question for the techheads - The Banshee

[HammerHead]

Better that what, exactly? I think the first set of numbers you created was fine - an 8.3 metre Arrow doesn't seem at all unreasonable.

I don't know, I always thoght of the Arrow as bigger then the Ferret (yes, I have a problem even with the second set), may even longer then the Hornet (which is 15.83m long base on the WC1/WC2 ratio)

But - and this is the heart of the problem, IMO - whichever you may prefer, both sets of numbers are equally reasonable and equally wrong, because it is clear that, based on the Jrathek and Wraith example, Armada's rescaling of ships is not even internally consistent, let alone consistent with any other game. No matter what numbers we come up with, they'll still be wrong.

What a headake . all wanted was to make a reasonable size model for some animations...

...And there's something else to consider, too - how accurate were the WC2 numbers? Judging from the cutscene shots, the Rapier II seems to be only slightly bigger than your average WWII fighter... and that would mean it's still at least 5 metres bigger than it should be. The same question applies for WCP, of course - is there any reason to believe the ships are the right size there, given that we hardly ever see any shots with humans that could be used for size comparison?

the 19m length of the Rapier G is on par with the F-15, F-4 Phanthom II, F-14, F-22 and a handfull of other air-supiriority fighters. Since the Rapier's role is space-supiriority, and been on par with modern air-supiriority fighters (or at least some of them), which are the only real-life point of reffrence, I think we can establish it as been in "reasonable size".

One more point - F-57 Sabre - it is bigger, 23.6m, then any modern fighter craft, but again:
A. It is a heavy space fighter - it carries equipment that an airplane (and medium space-supiriority fighters) don't need.
and, more importantly-
B. There are quite a few fighter plane which are "scraching" the 23m long limit from it lower side - the F-101 Voodoo and F-106 delta-dart at 20.5m, Mig 31 and Su-27 at 21.5m, Mig 25 at 22.5m, and if we'll include fighter plane that didn't get into service, but did got in the air - the YF-23 at 21.1m, the F-108 Rapier (ADC heavy mach 3 interceptor) at 27m and YF-12A, a heavy mach 3 interceptor base on the SR-71 black bird, at 31m.

So I personally think that again - 23.6m for the Saber is reasonable.
And why is the Raptor longer? (again 28.5m, base on the WC1/WC2 ration, and not 36m)
Simple - The Sabre is wider and shorter (it's width is larger then it's length) while the Raptor is Longer and thinner.

 

[Edfilho]

I sincerelly think that the first set of numbers is pretty decent and could be used in your work

 

[HammerHead]

Ok.
I'll try both, and see which look better, with two 10m long Mark IV torpedos slung on the underside

 

[AD]

Has anyone tried scaling Blair to a cockpit, then going with relative sizes from that? We've got good ones from WC3, and a couple really good ones from WC2.

Here's one I was playing with the other day, comparing the Ferret and the Broadsword. First take a look at the lengths mentioned here: https://www.wcnews.com/ships/wc2broadsword.shtml and
https://www.wcnews.com/ships/wc2ferret.shtml

Considering that a grown mans arm is roughly a Meter from his shoulder to the tips of his fingers while outstreched, the Ferret looks to be roughly the right size. The Broadsword looks massive in comparison but to me it doesn't look like its more than 3 times the legnth of the Ferret (more than 100 feet long).

 

[GreyViper]

So is it safe to asume that WC-Armada Confed Heavy-Fighter-Bomber Banshee was made buy same guys who did, privaters Daemon & Phantom?

 

[Edfilho]

wow, the ferret can't be a lot longer than 5 m.

 

[Quarto]

the 19m length of the Rapier G is on par with the F-15, F-4 Phanthom II, F-14, F-22 and a handfull of other air-supiriority fighters. Since the Rapier's role is space-supiriority, and been on par with modern air-supiriority fighters (or at least some of them), which are the only real-life point of reffrence, I think we can establish it as been in "reasonable size".

It's not a question of what's reasonable (since when do we even know what's reasonable for a 27th century space fighter? ) - it's a question of what the size actually is, based on the correctly-scaled images that we see in scenes where the Rapier is shown together with people. IMO, it doesn't look like it's 19 metres - more like 10-12.

 

[Aron Figaro]

AD - what you're forgetting when you use the flight tech's arm as a guide is perspective. When the Broadsword is in view, what's to say he's standing in exactly the same place? I know _I_ would probably be standing at least a few metres farther back for a fighter that massive. The only shot you can really get is Blair climbing into it, or Blair in the cockpit. Neither of those are really that good to describe the size of the ship...

As for an 8.9 metre Arrow, that sounds about right - it's a flying coffin, after all.

 

[AD]

AD - what you're forgetting when you use the flight tech's arm as a guide is perspective. When the Broadsword is in view, what's to say he's standing in exactly the same place? I know _I_ would probably be standing at least a few metres farther back for a fighter that massive. The only shot you can really get is Blair climbing into it, or Blair in the cockpit. Neither of those are really that good to describe the size of the ship...

As for an 8.9 metre Arrow, that sounds about right - it's a flying coffin, after all.

I wasn't talking about the flight tech. I was refering to bluehair climbing into the fighter.. and siting in the cockpit.

In the shot where you see the whole ship the background and foreground (the flight tech) are exactly the same for both the feret and the broadsword. In relation to the legnth of each ship compare to the back wall detail, the broadsword doesnt apear to be 36m long compared to a 10m long Ferret. In the close up of the broadsword, by my estimate the cockpit glass would be 5m long and the Ferrets about 2m.

 

[FlashFire82]

I think the Ferret and Broadsword comparison has a lot to show. Notice that when entering the ship, he almost looks like he's WEARING the Ferret, and given this fighter's role, this seams reasonable. Same goes for the extreme size of the Broadsword on entry. I think the launch animations, however, are not to scale. Clearly the Broadsword must be much larger than the ferret during that launch sequence (perhaps simply further away on the flight deck?)

 

[HammerHead]

It's not a question of what's reasonable (since when do we even know what's reasonable for a 27th century space fighter? ) - it's a question of what the size actually is, based on the correctly-scaled images that we see in scenes where the Rapier is shown together with people. IMO, it doesn't look like it's 19 metres - more like 10-12.

I only used the only reffrence I had - modern day fighters jets. Your 27th century can be very relevant - WCM Rapier I was small, but here is were taste comes in - I think that they where WAY to small - no way you shove a a full array of guns, a full salvo of missiles, a million KM range radar, electronics pack, a jump drive and enough fuel to cross two solar systems into such a small airframe. Yes, I might be thinking in 20th century terms, but this what look 'cool' to me.

In the bottom line, what I'm saying is that you'r probably right - we can't really tell what's reasnable .

About the Rapier, from the WC2 scenes where we see it neer humans, IMO, it does look like 19m, maybe chop it down to 17, but not less - defenetly not 10-12m. But again - this is my taste

wow, the ferret can't be a lot longer than 5 m

IMO, It does look 10m give or take 1m, but I'd say it's only 3m high (rather then the 4.5-5m high as portrade in some side shots)

In the shot where you see the whole ship the background and foreground (the flight tech) are exactly the same for both the feret and the broadsword. In relation to the legnth of each ship compare to the back wall detail, the broadsword doesnt apear to be 36m long compared to a 10m long Ferret. In the close up of the broadsword, by my estimate the cockpit glass would be 5m long and the Ferrets about 2m.

I Don't think that either shot is in scale with the other, which is a real shame, but your analisys of the canopy length might help a bit.
take a long shot of both ferret and Broadsword, calculate the % of the length "ocupied" by the canopy of each ship, and compare them with the takeoff shot.
(I'm afraid that you'll find out that once again someone have screwed up the scale )

 

[AD]

Clearly the Broadsword must be much larger than the ferret during that launch sequence (perhaps simply further away on the flight deck?)

That's a fair possibilty. I don't don't know if you can see one from the other, but there are two launch/landing strips on the concordia. And as was mentoned, a comparison in the launch sequence would suggest that is the case. Again the Ferret looks about right... if the cockfit "glass" is 2m the the whole thing is about 10m or so. THe broadsword though still looks like it's probably only around 26-28m though 2.5x a Ferrets length as opposed to 36m.