A Confed Topic: Building together

[Lt.Overload]

From the dude that brought you "A Nephilim Topic" comes the next topic. A Confed Topic.

I don't have Arena (sucks that I don't have a 360). But I do have a question. I've heard about a Kilrathi-Midway. I was wondering if Confed formed such a partnership with the Kilrathi that now they can build ships with technology from both sides. For example, are the Kilrathi so friendly now that they are working with us on new projects?

Also, do you think the Kilrathi and Confed will ever combine their forces to become one union? Like, they join together to become something like, Kilfed? Conrathi?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I don't have Arena (sucks that I don't have a 360). But I do have a question. I've heard about a Kilrathi-Midway. I was wondering if Confed formed such a partnership with the Kilrathi that now they can build ships with technology from both sides. For example, are the Kilrathi so friendly now that they are working with us on new projects?

I think you have been misinformed, there's no Kilrathi Midway in Arena. The two species' apparently worked together during the Nephilim War, but are coming into conflict once again in the post-war era.

Also, do you think the Kilrathi and Confed will ever combine their forces to become one union? Like, they join together to become something like, Kilfed? Conrathi?

No, "Kilrathi" refers to a race, while Confederation refers to a particular human government. That would be like the United States of America and puffer fish getting together to form Unipuffer Statefish.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

I think you have been misinformed, there's no Kilrathi Midway in Arena. The two species' apparently worked together during the Nephilim War, but are coming into conflict once again in the post-war era.

This is a Star*Soldier reference, LOAF. I believe it's mentioned in the paragraph that talks about the Battlecruisers. S*S mentions that there are two kinds of battle cruisers in service and due to the technological sharing agreement that stemmed from the Kilrathi/Confederation treaty they are similar in design. It says they are "less jarring" then the so called "Kilrathi Midway" - which rather implies to me that the Kilrathi copied the Midway design almost pound for pound.

No, "Kilrathi" refers to a race, while Confederation refers to a particular human government. That would be like the United States of America and puffer fish getting together to form Unipuffer Statefish.

What about the possability of the Kilrathi simply joining the Confederation? Or is that too far fetched?

I look at the relationships between the two much like the relationship of NATO with Russia right now. Russia is not a part of NATO, but shares a seat at the table to discuss mutual defense arrangements.

 

[AD]

This is a Star*Soldier reference, LOAF. I believe it's mentioned in the paragraph that talks about the Battlecruisers. S*S mentions that there are two kinds of battle cruisers in service and due to the technological sharing agreement that stemmed from the Kilrathi/Confederation treaty they are similar in design. It says they are "less jarring" then the so called "Kilrathi Midway" - which rather implies to me that the Kilrathi copied the Midway design almost pound for pound...

That hardly means it's a midway replica. And in the broadest sense all it means is that it's their version of a carrier that fits the same role and function as the Midway class.

And the Port Broughton seen in Arena is neither really a confed or a Kilrathi ship even if it started as a Confed ship... After being pretty much destroyed and left adrift it's pretty much now more akin to a big floating Multicultural city/refugee camp than anything else.

 

[JasonRocZ]

I used to be part of the Unipuffer Statefish but taxes were crazy so I moved off world

 

[Deadman_ny]

What about the possability of the Kilrathi simply joining the Confederation? Or is that too far fetched?

I look at the relationships between the two much like the relationship of NATO with Russia right now. Russia is not a part of NATO, but shares a seat at the table to discuss mutual defense arrangements.

The Kilrathi joining Confed doesn't seem far fatched, but it may be some time. What with Confed being the ones that blew up their home world.
An aliance of sorts sounds more plausible. Especially after the Nephilem coming into the picture and the possibility of other evan more powerful races.

What surprises me is that evan after decades of war the Kilrathi still hold basically the same systems.
All the reperations made after WW1 and WW2 I really find it hard to believe that we are so enlightened after billions of deaths we simply said...ok we're going home now. Especially after the history we have.

We all know about Tolwyn and how he was prosicuted on war crimes. Did we also hold tribunals for Kilrathi who commited atrocities? Yes, Thrakath and gramps were dead but there were still high ranking Kilrathi who gave/followed orders to use bio weapons and such. Or was it a case of give us the tech and well let it slide.
Comparing this war to any in our history is dificult simply because of it's duration and the staggering amount of life lost. The Kilrathi tried to nuke our planet so we blew up their planet and now everything is cool....?

If the Kilrathi had won humanity would have been wiped out. Who ever survived would have been enslaved. We know this from their history. Look at what they did at the battle of Terra. I'm with Hawk on this...kill that bastards.
The Kilrathi wanted this war. They started it. Tried every underhanded way in the book to win, and they didn't.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

That hardly means it's a midway replica. And in the broadest sense all it means is that it's their version of a carrier that fits the same role and function as the Midway class.

If you take the context into account it's strongly implied that the Kilrathi Midway and the Confederation Midway are related asthetically, as that's what the entire paragraph is talking about.

I'm not sure what the point was of referencing the Port Broughton...did you think it was implied somehow that the Port Broughton was being interpreted as a Kilrathi Midway?

The Kilrathi joining Confed doesn't seem far fatched, but it may be some time. What with Confed being the ones that blew up their home world.

I disagree. Even in a fractured nature I can never see the Kilrathi Empire joining the Confederation - at least not without 500 years of time passing, and we're talking about a much shorted occurance here. I think the dissident elements of the Kilrathi would kep that from happening.

An aliance of sorts sounds more plausible. Especially after the Nephilem coming into the picture and the possibility of other evan more powerful races.

The Alliance happens at some point, we're just not sure when. Star*Soldier makes reference to it.

We all know about Tolwyn and how he was prosicuted on war crimes. Did we also hold tribunals for Kilrathi who commited atrocities? Yes, Thrakath and gramps were dead but there were still high ranking Kilrathi who gave/followed orders to use bio weapons and such. Or was it a case of give us the tech and well let it slide.

I doubt there were really any issues like this at all - most of the Kilrathi who ranked high enough to make those kinds of decisions were probably directing the war on Kilrah, which as we all know, was destroyed at the end of the war. There are strong implications in False Colors (and more subtly in Star*Soldier) that there was some collective guilt on the side of the Confederation over the destruction of the Kilrathi homeworld and that Confed was letting alot of things with the Kilrathi slide (This is similar to the post World War I period [just similar, okay? not exactly the same. I don't need twenty people telling me how wrong I am because the Kilrathi don't build U-Boats and Germany did.] in that Germany began to violate some of the treaty terms to regain it's former power, this manages to set the stage nicely for some post-Nephilim Kilrathi Human war again, though).

Comparing this war to any in our history is dificult simply because of it's duration and the staggering amount of life lost. The Kilrathi tried to nuke our planet so we blew up their planet and now everything is cool....?

You're obviously missing the subtly politics going on behind the scenes, again a similar reference to World War II. The Kilrathi High Council or clans or whatever they were did not always see eye to eye with Thrakath. I doubt they would have sued for peace, but the war (and subsequently) the peace would have conducted much differently if they had been in command then it did with Thrakath leading everything.

What's strongly implied here is that removing Thrakath and his Grandfather from power is not seen by most of the Kilrathi as reasons to start a Holy War against the Confederation, but rather a reason to thank them for removing a corrupt and un-objective force from power.

What I find the most interesting is not that things were 'cool' with the Kilrathi so much as that they seemed to understand when they were beaten. How an entire race whose never been defeated manages to accept defeat at total war is somewhat beyond me, but the mention in S*S that a large portion of them committed suicide helps me accept it (I said large portion specifically to avoid the majority/minority/how many debate).

 

[Jason_Ryock]

What surprises me is that evan after decades of war the Kilrathi still hold basically the same systems.
All the reperations made after WW1 and WW2 I really find it hard to believe that we are so enlightened after billions of deaths we simply said...ok we're going home now. Especially after the history we have.

You need to re-read the books. It's very strongly implied that while some lessons from history have been remembered, others have been distorted with time. Sort of like playing Telephone, did you ever play that game? One person says something to the next person who says it to the next person, and then at the end it's something completely different. That's sort of what happens here.

I think it's End Run that has the reference about John Wayne, and one of the other pilots (I think it was Hunter) mentions that '...the rather self-contradictory film records indicate he was either...' They actually believed he was a war hero, IIRC. Which means somewhere along the way much of Human History got lost or distorted. And you're talking about 1000 years of history. You don't see us looking to Alexanders occupation of parts of Egypt for instructions on how to conduct our occupation of Germany or Japan, do you?

But let's look at that. The occupation of Japan only extended some six years beyond the end of the war, until 1952. And it never went as planned. For example, the Emporer was supposed to be removed from power, instead, as has happened in say constitutional monarchies, this position was merely made a symbolic position but retained despite the text of the treaty saying otherwise. As a result, much of Japan that had come to respect the Imperial Leaders was able to exist without radically alerting their culture.

So what lesson can we apply to the Kilrathi? Much the same thing - and evidence from Star*Soldier seems to indicate that we did. The Cult of Sivar was responsible for much of the atrocities of the war. Some of the worst actions and operations in the war were directly related to the Sivar sacrifices. Nearly the entire war can be chalked up to the Kilrathi trying to please Sivar. Yet we know from PLO2 and PLO3 that it was viable for the Cult of Sivar and the Priestess to still be in positions of power within the Kilrathi culture. This allows them to continue to exist without having to change their entire way of life, and is precisely how Japan and Germany both evolved into stable allies for the United States after World War II.

 

[AD]

If you take the context into account it's strongly implied that the Kilrathi Midway and the Confederation Midway are related asthetically, as that's what the entire paragraph is talking about.

I'm not sure what the point was of referencing the Port Broughton...did you think it was implied somehow that the Port Broughton was being interpreted as a Kilrathi Midway?

You're confusing two different ships. The paragraph about battle cruisers is just that, and says nothing about Midway class ships. The "new design" kilrathi and confed battle cruisers designed specifically to meet the needs of the Nephilim conflict are very similar looking to eachother structurally and in armament. The main differences are cosmetic in that the Kilrathi one has some pointy parts...

From star*soldier:

Indomitable Batlecruiser:
These cruisers are one of the new classes of ships which held the line against the Nephilim. These battlecruisers focus their tactics around their heavy weaponry rather than their fighter wings. In practice, the only ship capable of defeating a battlecruiser is another battlecruiser... and then only with coordinated fighter support.

Kiranka Batlecruiser:
The Kilrathi based their battlecruisers on a class of warship developed as part of their Hari fleet. Though they differ cosmetically from their human counterparts, the Kiranka-class is basically a pound for pound match for the Indomitable.

I've attached images of both Battlecruisers... the third image is the Port Broughton, the Midway class ship in Arena and of which the star*soldier article "life at Port Broughton" is about.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

Eh, AD...I think you're still missing the topic. We're talking about this line right here on page 21:

"Two primary battlecruiser designs served with the allied navies: the Terran Confederation’s Indomitable-class and the Kilrathi Assembly of Clans’ Kiranka-class. Both ships are visually similar, owing to the technology-sharing agreement established by the alliance treaty — though the natural ‘batteringram’ purpose of the ships makes their similarities less jarring than the so-called ‘Kilrathi Midway’. The indomitable brings additional plasma guns to the fight while the Kiranka expends additional armor to include an elaborate system of vacuum tight hull compartments."

What that says is that the similarities of the Battlecruisers are "less jarring" then the similarities of the so called 'Kilrathi Midway' - in other words, the Kilrathi Midway looks ALOT like the Confed Midway. Jarringly so.

EDIT: Actually, after re-reading that paragraph I'm wondering it it's a typo. Perhaps instead it should have read "their differances less jarring" as that seems to make more sense in the context of the sentence.

 

[JasonRocZ]

What that says is that the similarities of the Battlecruisers are "less jarring" then the similarities of the so called 'Kilrathi Midway' - in other words, the Kilrathi Midway looks ALOT like the Confed Midway. Jarringly so.

This is a little bit of a confused sentence...It would seem that there was a Kilrathi Midway or Kilrathi "MegaCarrier" meaning a ship similar to the Midway but visually different. So I agree with AD stating that

That hardly means it's a midway replica. And in the broadest sense all it means is that it's their version of a carrier that fits the same role and function as the Midway class.

If it says that is is "Less Jarring then the so called "Kilrathi Midway" wouldn't that mean that the Kilrathi Midway barely looks like the Confed Midway class and that it would be "more jarring" in a sense. I mean "jarring" isn't really a word that should have been used. The author should have used a word like "dissimilar, different, unlike, diverse" but not "jarring".....

Jarring is a term used when being shook or shakin, "Jar" being the main word because you think about a Jar being shook. Like "going on amusement rides can be jarring" meaning you get shook up.

think about all the words that have different meanings to them like the "F" word for example, or being called "dumb" it really means having trouble with speech, but us Americans have made it into something that means your mentally disabled, or your IQ isn't what it quite should be..

Bottom line......The english language is so stupid it's not even funny....

 

[Frosty]

The author should have used a word like "dissimilar, different, unlike, diverse" but not "jarring".

What in the world do you think that word means?

First of all: "jarring," as in to one's sensibilities, is perfectly applicable here.

Second: so is "similarities." The way I read that sentence is that these battleships are very similar, but it's not surprising because of their narrow purpose. This is in contrast to this "Kilrathi Midway" that's mentioned because aircraft carriers in Wing Commander vary quite wildly from class to class within a single navy, let alone from species to species. If a Kilrathi carrier ship exists that is as similar to the Midway as the Kiranka and Indomitable are to each other, then surely that's quite striking.

Bottom line......The english language is so stupid it's not even funny....

There's so much self-loathing ("...but us Americans..." / "...English...is stupid...") and general lack of conversancy with any of the subjects in your post it makes me cringe.

 

[Mekt-Hakkikt]

As a non-native speaker I always had problems with that sentence but in the end, I decided to take its meaning as "the Kilrathi Midway is a lot like the Terran Midway" (either in design, function or both) in contrast to the less similar designs in the battlecruisers. But that probably wasn't a very well founded decision.

But to summarize for Lt. Overload:

(...) I've heard about a Kilrathi-Midway. I was wondering if Confed formed such a partnership with the Kilrathi that now they can build ships with technology from both sides. For example, are the Kilrathi so friendly now that they are working with us on new projects?

(...)

Yes, there's a "so-called 'Kilrathi Midway'" and there's a technology-sharing agreement and an alliance treaty (all on p. 21 of StarSoldier - a must read, regardless of wheter you own an XBox or not).

Probably that was all installed for the Nephilim conflict and with that more or less solved it remains to be seen if it stays in effect. With the organization of the Kilrathi in Clans I think you can be sure that there always be faction that do not bow to Kilrathi's Assembly of Clans who (as I take it) are officially on friendly terms with the humans. And thanks to these rogue warlords, there will always be potential for Terran-Kilrathi conflict.

And for the Kilrathi officially joining the Confederation: I don't think so. The Kilrathi are too particular in their mindset. I can imagine there will be some sort of permanent alliance and heavy dependency of the Kilrathi Assembly on the Confederation but a true joining, I don't think so.

 

[Jason_Ryock]

As a non-native speaker I always had problems with that sentence but in the end, I decided to take its meaning as "the Kilrathi Midway is a lot like the Terran Midway" (either in design, function or both) in contrast to the less similar designs in the battlecruisers. But that probably wasn't a very well founded decision.

This is the correct interpretation of the sentence - what is stated is that while the battlecruisers are similar, their similarities are less shocking/jarring/startling then the similarities present in the Kilrathi Midway.

Jason, you're skipping the "Similarities" part of the Sentence, and AD you're missing the critical part too. The sentence should read:

The battlecruisers are visually similar but the similarities between the two are less shocking then [the similarities] present in the Kilrathi Midway.

Once again, the keyword to this sentance is 'similarities'. If the author had written "The battlecruisers are visually similar but the similarities between the two are less shocking then the differences in the Kilrathi Midway, the statement would support your argument. But the fact of the matter is that the author cannot be talking about differences between two ships, because the establishing paragraph mentions only the similarities between the ship designs of the Confederation and the Kilrathi.

I would go on further to look at the term "Kilrathi Midway". The Midway as we all know is a Confederation Megacarrier. Why would it be called a Midway if it served the function of a Megacarrier? Why wouldn't it be called a Megacarrier? Star*Soldier even has a whole section dedicated to the "Megacarriers" (including the post-Midway or Midway Flight II Ships). If the intention of the sentence was to associate the Kilrathi Midway with the Megacarrier role the Megacarrier term should have been used.

Instead, in a sentence talking about the similarities between ships, the Megacarrier of the Kilrathi isn't called a Mega carrier, it's directly related to the Midway-class of ships. Further, the author makes a clever distinction here that the Kilrathi Midway is a 'so-called' midway. Implying that the name was stuck onto it after the creation of the ship. As the Kilrathi have probably already designed and developed their own Megacarrier by this time, why would he choose to make that distinction? What that sentence says to me is that Confederation Soldiers tagged that name on the ship after noting the similarities (there's that word again - similarities, not differences) between the Conderation and Kilrathi Midway's.

These elements all combine to create a strong connection (er...similarity?) between the Kilrathi Midway and the Confederation Midway.

 

[JasonRocZ]

From this day forth, I will be staying out of any discussions like this. Due to me trying to avoid the breaking of rule #5 in the rules and regulations.

Frosty you have to understand that people have different interpretations of many things including meanings of different words. You always seem to have a fullbug when it comes to this. I am not always right, and discussion is good but I'd rather be proven wrong then go periods of time thinking that I was right when I was really wrong. And there is no self-loathing, It is just that being an American makes you think that many interpretations of things can be looked at from many different angles. There is no self hatred, only an understanding that people think differently about everything.

 

[PopsiclePete]

The Kilrathi won't ever join the Confederation, because that'd make a boring setting for a new WC game.

 

[ChrisReid]

Frosty you have to understand that people have different interpretations of many things including meanings of different words. You always seem to have a fullbug when it comes to this. I am not always right, and discussion is good but I'd rather be proven wrong then go periods of time thinking that I was right when I was really wrong. And there is no self-loathing, It is just that being an American makes you think that many interpretations of things can be looked at from many different angles. There is no self hatred, only an understanding that people think differently about everything.

I'm having trouble following what your point has been these last few posts. There's nothing wrong with the use of "jarring" in Star Soldier. That semantics digression probably shouldn't have been made in the first place.

 

[Deadman_ny]

Different points of view are cool. It's a forum afterall where people share thier views and discuss them.
Disagreement is part of discussion. When peole openly insult others who disagree instead of trying to make further valid arguments that I and others get turned off and instead of people posting they are afraid of being slapped and told they are dumb.
I don't mind my "thoughts" being disputed and being told I'm wronge. Often times I am and it's a learning exspirence.
We're discussing a fictional universe here and alot of that history has holes in it. We try to fill in the gaps where we can.
This is all for fun isn't it. Lets try to keep it that way.
hmm...

 

[Frosty]

We're discussing a fictional universe here and alot of that history has holes in it.

1. You're not the thread police.
2. The history of the fictional universe is not the subject of this particular tangent, which is based around people not knowing the definitions of words.
3. By all means, change the subject.

 

[AD]

I'm having trouble following what your point has been these last few posts. There's nothing wrong with the use of "jarring" in Star Soldier. That semantics digression probably shouldn't have been made in the first place.

I'm going to appologize for my own part in this mess in which I misinterpreted Ryock as having said that the "kilrathi midway" was the same as the battlecruisers, which isn't what he said. I think it was in part from the original poster having heard that we see the "kilrathi midway" in arena, which we don't. There's just the star*soldier reference.