Universe Map

Shipgate

Rear Admiral
I was closely scrutinizing my Wing Commander Universe Map today and just started thinking about all those red dots under the Kilrathi Assembly of Clans. Are there really that many systems that are still under Kilrathi control? And just how united are these clans? What I got from Prophecy was that it was really only the Cult of Sivar that ever posed any real problems. But what do we know about the Kilrathi political structure and other Kilrathi clans after the war? It just seems like with all that territory that they have that it wouldn't take too long, assuming they were all united, to wage war on Confed again if they wanted to.

And given, it does show much more territory under the Terran Confederation, but I don't know. Can anyone explain any of that to me?
 

TheRedDuke

Spaceman
It would certainly appear from both WC4, FC, and Prophecy that the Confederation has no real desire to conquer the whole of the Emprie's territory, other than that which was taken from them during the War, hence the large amount of territory still under Kilrathi control at the time of Prophecy. Besides, the TC would be in no real condition to continue to fight the remaining clans, as we see in FC. Infastructures are still struggling to rebuild, ships are being decomissioned in droves, etc. I think I recall reading somewhere that at the time of Prophecy, relations were almost friendly with many of the Clans (ICIS manual maybe?), and certainly with the opening movie to WCP, we see that whichever Clan controls the Kilrah system, they are allowing some form of Confederation presence.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
Well, Most of the kat territory is controlled by diferent clans that were united under the deceased Imperial family. With the emperor and Kilrah gone, most clans started to squabble over several things, and Confed enforced heavy military cut backs.

I didn't understand your question about confed.
 

Iceman16

Vice Admiral
Shipgate said:
And given, it does show much more territory under the Terran Confederation, but I don't know. Can anyone explain any of that to me?

The Kilrathi territory goes off the map which means that there is more territory than is shown on the map. does that help any? your question is kinda confusing
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I'm not really sure what you're asking - number of star systems doesn't equate to military power. The Kilrathi have so many because we weren't fighting a war of conquest against them -- there's no reason (or ability) for Confed to annex hunders of Kilrathi-occupied worlds.

After the war Melek used his authority over the Imperial clan to form the Kilrathi Assembly of Clans, giving himself the title of Chancellor. On paper, the Assembly is allied with the Confederation - in reality, it's made up of five factions which are fighting a bloody civil war to determine who will take over as the next emperor.
 

Shipgate

Rear Admiral
I'm not sure exactly what I'm asking either. I understand that Confed wouldn't necassarily want to conquer Kilrathi systems and that Confed itself would be rebuilding after all the years of fighting. And it is true that number of systems does not equate military power.

Maybe I'm more just assuming that control over those systems means a lot of access to raw materials and resources. And that if the Kilrathi clans were united, then perhaps they would have all the territory they wanted to secretly build up their military again into a full-fledged feet. And this is just assuming they would want to wage war again, which they probably wouldn't.

And also what is the relationship now at the time of Prophecy between the Border Worlds and Confed and Kilrah. And Firekkann (think I spelled that right) too I suppose.
 

Mad Cow

Spaceman
Shipgate said:
Maybe I'm more just assuming that control over those systems means a lot of access to raw materials and resources. And that if the Kilrathi clans were united, then perhaps they would have all the territory they wanted to secretly build up their military again into a full-fledged feet. And this is just assuming they would want to wage war again, which they probably wouldn't.

I think it's a matter of actually exercising control over all that territory. Using Star Wars as an example, a lot of the worlds on the outer rim, while technically part of the Empire, were wild and lawless because the Empire couldn't project their power out that far. Perhaps it is the same with the Kilrathi. Even if the clans were united, they may not have the time or resources to compete with the local warlords in the far outlying systems.
 

Shipgate

Rear Admiral
Yeah, it's like if Britain invaded some third world country and said, "We claim this land and now make it a part of Britain." And then they stick the British flag in the ground. And then the natives come up to them and they're like, "Hey man, what are you doing this our country, we live here. You can't do this." And the British guys are like, "Well, do you have a flag?" And then the natives are like, "No, I guess not." And then the British guys say, "Well I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do then. This is now a part of Britain as we have driven this flag into the ground." Then the native guy is standing there with a dim smile and holding a spear or something and he says, "What's a flag?"
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Confed was never out to conquer the kilrathi, AS backs up the fact that Confed wanted to coexist but the kilrathi in their warrior ways wanted to conquer Confed and simple move on to the next prey. They wanted worlds, Confed wanted to just coexist.

Also, in AS Jukaga's father speaks about how confed is more of a solid mass, they assimilate (maybe not the right word but it works) the races they find into the confederation, making it stronger, whereas the kilrathi destroy and enslave the races they find. It's kind of like a rock vs a empty egg shell, both might take up the same space, but one isn't very solid.
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Well, it may be that some of those Kilrathi systems are just nominally occupied by them, without much significant population. But if that was the case, why wouldn't Confed grab them as "war reparations"?

Another interesting question is weather or not any Kilrathi system remained with Confed, or Kilrathi individuals as confed citzens, like on WC2.
 

Nomad Terror

Rear Admiral
Confed was always fighting a defensive war on the whole. I can't imagine them taking systems except those the Kilrathi had taken from them already. To go incursionary into Kilrathi space with intent on conquering would probably meet with hostile xenophobic territorial retalitory action. Confed was already in a bad enough situation as it was without giving the Kilrathi more reason to devote everything they had to conquer them outright.

And I always wondered why we never saw more Kilrathi in Confed service, considering that the worlds who defected in WC2 and we were protecting in SO actually became members of the Confederation. With several million (billion?) Kilrathi now in Confed, wouldn't they get around? At least on the front?
 

Iceman16

Vice Admiral
maybe they do join the fleet and do all the stuff that regular citizens of confed do but we just never saw any them
 

Delance

Victory, you say?
Considering that at a specific point point confed close to win the war, they must have been doing some damage inside Kilrathi space, not necessarly taking any planets however.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Delance said:
Well, it may be that some of those Kilrathi systems are just nominally occupied by them, without much significant population. But if that was the case, why wouldn't Confed grab them as "war reparations"?
They did. Look at the map of Gemini from Privateer, and compare it with the map of Gemini on the 2681 WC map.

Another interesting question is weather or not any Kilrathi system remained with Confed, or Kilrathi individuals as confed citzens, like on WC2.
Apparently not - all four defecting systems marked as belonging to the Kilrathi.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
And I always wondered why we never saw more Kilrathi in Confed service, considering that the worlds who defected in WC2 and we were protecting in SO actually became members of the Confederation. With several million (billion?) Kilrathi now in Confed, wouldn't they get around? At least on the front?

Eh, there's less than two years between the events of SO1 and the end of the war... (not to mention that Wing Commander 3's "reboot" nature pretty much ignored anything lost or gained in the Wing 2 addons).

Considering that at a specific point point confed close to win the war, they must have been doing some damage inside Kilrathi space, not necessarly taking any planets however.

Sure, take a look at the Vega Sector - all sorts of Kilrathi-settled planets which we invaded in the original Wing Commander (Venice, Kurasawa, Cairo) are now part of the Confederation or Border Worlds.

Apparently not - all four defecting systems marked as belonging to the Kilrathi.

I believe I added the three systems referenced in Special Ops 1 - but I followed Captain Johnny's example with Ghorah Khar. It makes sense... the Kilrathi systems joined the war effort because they had an issue with the current emperor, not because they'd decided to accept any Terran ideals (or out of any desire to assosciate or integrate themselves with the Confederation... it's a lesser of two evils situation.)

Yeah, it's like if Britain invaded some third world country and said, "We claim this land and now make it a part of Britain." And then they stick the British flag in the ground. And then the natives come up to them and they're like, "Hey man, what are you doing this our country, we live here. You can't do this." And the British guys are like, "Well, do you have a flag?" And then the natives are like, "No, I guess not." And then the British guys say, "Well I'm sorry. There's nothing I can do then. This is now a part of Britain as we have driven this flag into the ground." Then the native guy is standing there with a dim smile and holding a spear or something and he says, "What's a flag?"

That happened throughout history, and it's absolutely nothing like the situation we're describing.
 

Quarto

Unknown Enemy
Bandit LOAF said:
I believe I added the three systems referenced in Special Ops 1 - but I followed Captain Johnny's example with Ghorah Khar. It makes sense... the Kilrathi systems joined the war effort because they had an issue with the current emperor, not because they'd decided to accept any Terran ideals (or out of any desire to assosciate or integrate themselves with the Confederation... it's a lesser of two evils situation.)
Actually, they were all there on the WCP map already... and yeah, I agree about the reasoning for their return to the Kilrathi.

(not to mention, the rebels would almost certainly have been very much taken aback with Confed's acceptal of the cease-fire, so it's possible that they withdrew from the Confederation around the same time Firekka did - though, obviously, they couldn't actually rejoin the Empire until after the war)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I guess I must have been thinking of the original WCU Map posting at wingcommanderprophecy.com. Better days!

(Another option is that they may just have been retaken...)
 

Dundradal

Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Kind of like how Torgo is labeled Torgo even though in FC we hear it being called Kobar Yagar, the kilrathi name for it. I always found it interesting how in wc3 we had a sector HQ at Torgo and inbetween the victory stopping their with the behemoth and the t-bomb run the kats were able to capture the system. Seemed awefully quick action to me.
 

Edfilho

Cry some more!
I also remember what Jukaga said... A good deal of Kilrathi territory is dead.

And Delance, I think people stopped asking for war reparations after what happened in europe during the 1930's...
 
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