tolwyn's cheap shot (wc2 dialogue)

is the line cited a cheap shot?

  • definitely. i'm surprised paladin didn't hit him.

    Votes: 7 31.8%
  • a little, but understandable given bluehair's rep at the time

    Votes: 10 45.5%
  • no. he has a point, even if he's working off incomplete information.

    Votes: 5 22.7%

  • Total voters
    22
  • Poll closed .

warlock

Spaceman
wing commander 2, ghorah khar system. tolwyn and paladin discussing matters...

Tolwyn: I disagree. You can’t depend on [Bluehair]. Ask anyone who served on the Tiger’s Claw - if you can find any of them. They’re rather scarce these days.

first of all, tolwyn of all people shouldn't be referring to claw survivors as 'scarce' - he's on the same ship as most of them!

second, is it just me or is this an incredibly cheap thing for him to say? it's as if he's trying to remind paladin "remember? you served on the claw? remember how few people are left of your shipmates from back then? remember how all this is captain bluehair's fault?"
 
warlock said:
wing commander 2, ghorah khar system. tolwyn and paladin discussing matters...



first of all, tolwyn of all people shouldn't be referring to claw survivors as 'scarce' - he's on the same ship as most of them!

second, is it just me or is this an incredibly cheap thing for him to say? it's as if he's trying to remind paladin "remember? you served on the claw? remember how few people are left of your shipmates from back then? remember how all this is captain bluehair's fault?"

It is a general statement. They are quite scarce. Even if he is referring to the Concordia's crew, there wouldn't be many outside of the ship. There are just a handful of them left.
I like your second point though, it does seem like to Tolwyn to quietly remind someone what Blair originally held responsible for. Paladin is too self respecting and honourable to lose his cool or a cheap shot (if that was Tolwyn's intention).
 
Besides the fact that Tolwyn is badmouthing my role character, I never thought it was logical for him to pin the blame on Blair. He had proven himself over and over, and when things all went to hell the Admiral decides to make a scapegoat outta him and forget all his previous accomplishments for the Confed.

BTW...does anyone have an official list of the Tiger's Claw survivors? I can think of Spirit, Angel, Hunter, Paladin, and Maniac (not including Doomsday and Jazz since technically they flew off the Austin.)
 
Mordecai: the phrase "Tiger's Claw survivors" is rather debatable. the way doomsday used it "So, here we are… survivors of the Tiger’s Claw. I’m surprised there are so many of us left. Now all we need is Paladin and Maniac so we can all die together." it seems to include himself, jazz, angel, spirit, blair, paladin and maniac.

later on, in k'tithrak mang 3, jazz says "I swore I’d kill everyone on that blasted ship – and I nearly did. Spirit was so easy… and I only had four to go… you, Angel, Paladin, and Maniac…"

note that doomsday seems to be counting anyone in the claw's flight wing while he was there, while jazz is counting the people who were in the wing when the sivar incident happened.

also note that no one ever mentions hunter in the winning track, [with regards to whether he's still alive, anyway] and the player is left to assume he's dead from doomsday's statement and told he's dead in jazz's.

unfortunately, later continuity told the tale of hunter's death just before the battle of earth. the way to fit this retcon into the game's events is:
a) he's onboard the concordia and when doomsday says "here we are", he means "...on the concordia", not "...in the room" (as is everyone else)
b) jazz simply forgot about him in his vengeance list (that has consumed the last 10 years)
and c) we never see or hear from him during the entire game. not even after blair's been cleared.

now on the other hand, gwynedd (losing track) 3 has "How many deaths are you responsible for, Colson? Specialist McGuffin, General Halcyon, Iceman, Knight, Hunter, everyone else on the Tiger’s Claw… And Mariko… And you think I’ll let you live, bastard?"

this line has its own problems, since of course the retreat to gwynedd never happened, but it shows that to the best of blair's knowledge at this time, hunter is dead.

(let's not even get into the iceman question)
 
Starkey said:
They are scarce because the Claw was destroyed and most of them died.

Exactly. Most of the people who served on the Claw were on the Claw when it went down, only the pilots survived. Yeah.

now on the other hand, gwynedd (losing track) 3 has "How many deaths are you responsible for, Colson? Specialist McGuffin, General Halcyon, Iceman, Knight, Hunter, everyone else on the Tiger’s Claw… And Mariko… And you think I’ll let you live, bastard?"

Yeah, that's a little iffy. Iceman, of course, is killed by the Cats in B'shriss, or however the heck you spell that (as told by Hawk in Prophecy). Do we know exactly when this occurred? Apparently, Blair brought in the pod with Casey's body, but I've heard tell this occurs after the Claw's destruction and Blair's posting to Caernavon, so...

As for Hunter, it's probably safe to assume Blair didn't know he was still alive. I mean, they weren't exactly close friends (RE: the movie). Also, in Fleet Action, Hunter sees Vanderman and says something akin to "Damn, but I thought you bought it when the Claw went down." He goes 13 years without knowing Vanderman was alive, so it's reasonable to assume Blair thinks the same thing. Perhaps Hunter isn't assigned to the Concordia until after Vukar Tag (maybe the Munroe missions are some of his first--and last--aboard the Concordia).

Oh, and Tolwyn has a lot of cheap shots in WC2. My favorite is something like "Watch your back... Blair certainly won't." What a dick. :p
 
warlock said:
note that doomsday seems to be counting anyone in the claw's flight wing while he was there, while jazz is counting the people who were in the wing when the sivar incident happened.

also note that no one ever mentions hunter in the winning track, [with regards to whether he's still alive, anyway] and the player is left to assume he's dead from doomsday's statement and told he's dead in jazz's.

unfortunately, later continuity told the tale of hunter's death just before the battle of earth. the way to fit this retcon into the game's events is:
a) he's onboard the concordia and when doomsday says "here we are", he means "...on the concordia", not "...in the room" (as is everyone else)
b) jazz simply forgot about him in his vengeance list (that has consumed the last 10 years)
and c) we never see or hear from him during the entire game. not even after blair's been cleared.

now on the other hand, gwynedd (losing track) 3 has "How many deaths are you responsible for, Colson? Specialist McGuffin, General Halcyon, Iceman, Knight, Hunter, everyone else on the Tiger’s Claw… And Mariko… And you think I’ll let you live, bastard?"

AFAIK Hunter didn't serve on the Concordia. Not just because we would've seen him in WC2 -- for all practical purposes, we were supposed to assume that Hunter was dead at the beginning of WC2. But since there wasn't any real evidence that he HAD bought it (except for that one line by Blair in Gwynedd 3), Forstchen was able to get away with his explanation of how he survived in Fleet Action. Like Dralthi5 said, if Vanderman didn't know Hunter was still alive then it's safe to say that everyone, including Jazz and Blair, assumed he was dead when the Claw went down as well. Hence Blair's comments to the begging Jazz floating in his ejection pod.

In Jazz's statement "I swore I'd kill everyone on that ship" he's talking about everyone, not just those on that flight wing in Sivar. How does he know who was actually flying that mission and who wasn't? His anger was so consuming that he took it out on the entire ship : "The Claw was supposed to protect those people...but YOU (Tiger's Claw) detoured to destroy an enemy troopship!" which refers to the SM1 Dorkir (or Lumbardi, can't remember) mission right before Goddard gets wasted. Bitter guy.
 
Mordecai said:
it's safe to say that everyone, including Jazz and Blair, assumed [Hunter] was dead when the Claw went down

"Vanderman from Tiger's Claw, isn't it?" Ian asked, and the old pilot sitting across from him on the other side of the aisle nodded and shook his hand.
"Hell, I thought you bought it when the Claw got hit," Vanderman asked.
"I got transferred off on a two week furlough the day before she got hit," Ian replied, a flicker of sadness crossing his features at the mention of his old ship.
"Luck of the draw I guess," Ian mused, "if it hadn't been for the furlough I'd have died with the rest of my friends.
"But what about you," he asked, forcing a smile, "I saw you go down over Draga just before we pulled out."
"I ejected and made it down to the surface, mostly in one piece. Stranded for a couple of years."

under a strict reading, i think the only thing we can say for sure from this is that vanderman (a couple years later after he was rescued) assumed hunter was dead - nothing definite about people who were actually on the claw when hunter went for that shore leave. (and as i think someone has already pointed out, "the rest of my friends" is a little insulting to angel, paladin, spirit, blair, iceman, all of whom survived)


Mordecai said:
In Jazz's statement "I swore I'd kill everyone on that ship" he's talking about everyone, not just those on that flight wing in Sivar.

exactly, he means everyone who was on the claw when goddard went up (went down?) and this includes hunter, but not himself or doomsday.
 
warlock said:
(and as i think someone has already pointed out, "the rest of my friends" is a little insulting to angel, paladin, spirit, blair, iceman, all of whom survived).

Eh, I don't think so. I'm sure Hunter had a lot of friends on the Claw that died.
 
Perhaps that was the best explanation Forstchen could come up with that wouldn't be too contradicting. He even tries to back up the fact of Blair always being ignorant about Hunter's status later in Heart of the Tiger, when he's contemplating what to do with Hobbes' effects after his betrayal and having to shoot him down:

The last he'd heard, Kirha had vowed allegiance to a Terran pilot, Ian "Hunter" St. John, but that was years ago. Blair hadn't heard anything of Hunter for a long time.

Now of course we know this was well after Hunter was already dead, so obviously Blair (and assumedly others who survived the Claw) have always been out of the loop regarding Hunter.
 
Besides the fact that Tolwyn is badmouthing my role character, I never thought it was logical for him to pin the blame on Blair. He had proven himself over and over, and when things all went to hell the Admiral decides to make a scapegoat outta him and forget all his previous accomplishments for the Confed.

I think the Wing Commander Academy animated series certainly tries to explain that Tolwyn simply didn't like Blair -- we see Tolwyn trying to be a mentor to Blair in the series (grooming him -- picking him to lead one of the teams specifically in Red & Blue, instructing him in command in Chain of Command)... and then Blair responding by standing up to him several times (spying on him for Adm. Bergstrom, refusing to accept the medal in the finale).

BTW...does anyone have an official list of the Tiger's Claw survivors? I can think of Spirit, Angel, Hunter, Paladin, and Maniac (not including Doomsday and Jazz since technically they flew off the Austin.)

I suppose it depends what you mean by survivors, since, Spirit, Angel, Hunter and Jazz are all killed off eventually.

As for people who serve on the Tiger's Claw at any point who are still alive after 2656.056, we can add to that list Vanderman (referenced earlier in the thread), Sparks (who filled in off the Austin for a time during FF), Hawk (who was a technician on the 'Claw before going off to OCS), Iceman (who survived the attack) and Tolwyn (who commanded the ship on occasion).

There's also an interesting reference to Shotglass in Victory Streak - saying that he gave the writer a set of wings 'after K'Tithrak Mang'. Make what you will of that.

Of these characters, the only ones who ultimately survive are Vanderman (well, who knows) and Sparks.

unfortunately, later continuity told the tale of hunter's death just before the battle of earth. the way to fit this retcon into the game's events is:
a) he's onboard the concordia and when doomsday says "here we are", he means "...on the concordia", not "...in the room" (as is everyone else)
b) jazz simply forgot about him in his vengeance list (that has consumed the last 10 years)
and c) we never see or hear from him during the entire game. not even after blair's been cleared.

now on the other hand, gwynedd (losing track) 3 has "How many deaths are you responsible for, Colson? Specialist McGuffin, General Halcyon, Iceman, Knight, Hunter, everyone else on the Tiger’s Claw… And Mariko… And you think I’ll let you live, bastard?"

this line has its own problems, since of course the retreat to gwynedd never happened, but it shows that to the best of blair's knowledge at this time, hunter is dead.

I think you're on the right track with your first answer -- then just expand it a bit... perhaps the difference in dialogue is specifically because Hunter is killed at some point during the losing missions? Wing Commander II has an incredibly spread-out timeline... with Blair on the Concordia for three years.

Also, there is another reference to Hunter on the 'winning path'... Spirit and Angel talk about how he'd play practical jokes on Maniac just after Shadow's funeral. It's certainly not a clear indication that he's alive -- but "hey, remember how great your dead friend was?" isn't a very good way to lift Blair's spirits.

Yeah, that's a little iffy. Iceman, of course, is killed by the Cats in B'shriss, or however the heck you spell that (as told by Hawk in Prophecy). Do we know exactly when this occurred? Apparently, Blair brought in the pod with Casey's body, but I've heard tell this occurs after the Claw's destruction and Blair's posting to Caernavon, so...

Iceman does survive the destruction of the Tiger's Claw, and is killed by the Kilrathi later.

As for Hunter, it's probably safe to assume Blair didn't know he was still alive. I mean, they weren't exactly close friends (RE: the movie). Also, in Fleet Action, Hunter sees Vanderman and says something akin to "Damn, but I thought you bought it when the Claw went down." He goes 13 years without knowing Vanderman was alive, so it's reasonable to assume Blair thinks the same thing. Perhaps Hunter isn't assigned to the Concordia until after Vukar Tag (maybe the Munroe missions are some of his first--and last--aboard the Concordia).

Blair did know that Hunter was still alive after the loss of the Tiger's Claw - Hunter sends him a letter of support after the court martial (which is published in the Kilrathi Saga manual).

AFAIK Hunter didn't serve on the Concordia. Not just because we would've seen him in WC2 -- for all practical purposes, we were supposed to assume that Hunter was dead at the beginning of WC2. But since there wasn't any real evidence that he HAD bought it (except for that one line by Blair in Gwynedd 3), Forstchen was able to get away with his explanation of how he survived in Fleet Action. Like Dralthi5 said, if Vanderman didn't know Hunter was still alive then it's safe to say that everyone, including Jazz and Blair, assumed he was dead when the Claw went down as well. Hence Blair's comments to the begging Jazz floating in his ejection pod.

Well, he certainly served on the Concordia eventually -- he's flying a Broadsword off the Concordia in the first chapter of Fleet Action (which means Blair was his Wing Commander).

In Jazz's statement "I swore I'd kill everyone on that ship" he's talking about everyone, not just those on that flight wing in Sivar. How does he know who was actually flying that mission and who wasn't? His anger was so consuming that he took it out on the entire ship : "The Claw was supposed to protect those people...but YOU (Tiger's Claw) detoured to destroy an enemy troopship!" which refers to the SM1 Dorkir (or Lumbardi, can't remember) mission right before Goddard gets wasted. Bitter guy.

There's no actual enemy troopship mission in SM1 -- it was supposed to have happened earlier (you do run into a Lumbari tanker in the first mission, but that's while you're in the process of escorting relief ships to Goddard). Jazz is referring to everyone who was on the ship during Operation Thor's Hammer (which is what the earlier poster meant by the Sivar mission). He probably *isn't* referring to everyone who was ever on the 'Claw... since that'd include a bunch of people who had nothing to do with anything, like Tolwyn and Hawk.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
There's also an interesting reference to Shotglass in Victory Streak - saying that he gave the writer a set of wings 'after K'Tithrak Mang'. Make what you will of that.
A reference that, apart from suggesting Shotglass survived, also seems to imply that the Voices of War guy is himself a Tiger's Claw survivor.

(which, of course, is a necessity, mainly because like the Academy manual guy, he's implied to be Bluehair)
 
A reference that, apart from suggesting Shotglass survived, also seems to imply that the Voices of War guy is himself a Tiger's Claw survivor.

Possibly, but I don't think it's specific enough. 'After K'Tithrak Mang' would mean, in my mind, after the Concordia took the system... and since the Armada character (Jacorski?) was a Concordia pilot, the connection is more likely there. (Certainly, it *could* mean that Shotglass somehow survived the Tiger's Claw and give wings to the Armada character immediately afterwards... but it's not specific enough in my mind to declare another Tiger's Claw veteran. I can't help but think that *if* Shotglass survived the loss of the 'Claw, it's because he was off doing something else at the time.)

(which, of course, is a necessity, mainly because like the Academy manual guy, he's implied to be Bluehair)

That considered, "Carl LaFong" is probably a good one to add to the 'Claw survivors list.
 
UGh. I cringe everytome someone says that. What kind of name is lafong, anyway? spanish-chinese?
 
Why does "Shotglass" even need to be the same guy from WC1? For all we know it's like "Sawbones" or "doc", just a generic nickname for a bartender on a ship, isn't it?
 
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