The most loathed startfighter ever.

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Most hated for game play, the Scimitar. To slow, light armor for something so slow (though thick compared to the hornet) and lightly armed for something so slow. I found no redeeming features apart from being more durable once you've flown the Hornet. Strikes me as a typical gunfodder ship.

Most hated for inconsistency, the Dragon. A damn attempt at an ultimate ship. It was faster, more durable, better armed then any other ship while being no bigger, had a capital ship power system, cloak, and infinite after burn. That is like a 2 century jump in technology level there, which made it annoyingly inconsistent with the story line.

Just my thoughts.
 
Rictheron said:
Back on the original subject.

Most hated for inconsistency, the Dragon. A damn attempt at an ultimate ship. It was faster, more durable, better armed then any other ship while being no bigger, had a capital ship power system, cloak, and infinite after burn. That is like a 2 century jump in technology level there, which made it annoyingly inconsistent with the story line.

Just my thoughts.
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hrmm.. yeah but then again the excalibur was pretty shit hot when it came out in wc3...

2 centuries ahead?? ahh not really.. WCP ships could take it and out-manoeuvre it too.

and as for the story line of wc4, i think it depended on a ship like the dragon ;) wouldnt have been half as cool otherwise.. the whole thing was s'posed to be cloak and dagger... the dragon lent itself perfectly to a world (universe?) of bioweapon attacks on its own citizens, flashpaks, genetic enhancement projects... just wouldnt be the same with clone soldiers fighting in arrows and launching dumbfires !! :D
 
Actually, a crew of super-great pilots kicking inordinate amounts of ass in Arrows and Ferrets and using only dumbfires would be a really awesome thing. Hell . . I think I'd join that crew.
 
The Epee was both my favorite, and least favorite fighter. It was a real challenge to fly.
Pros:
Highly manouverable.
Particle cannons(one step up on the Ferret).
Cons:
Goes up like a tinderbox within a few hits.

So, basically, the best thing about the fighter was also the worst.
 
wankski said:
and as for the story line of wc4, i think it depended on a ship like the dragon ;)
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Perhaps a ship with some of the Dragon's benefits, but not the total package we got in WC4.

Needs cloaking to sneak around for missions, no problem. Cloaks are hardly impossible, and have been around since the 2650's (Skipper missile fired at the Claw in WCM, later the Strakhas that destroyed the Claw during the strike on K'tithrak Mang, depicted in the WC2 intro).

Capable of mounting a capship killing weapon, again, no problem (torpedo hardpoint mounting of the Flashpack in the player's ship was a game code limitation; the non-interactive movie parts of WC4 and WC4N have the FP in its own special dispenser).

Long range? Antimatter powerplant fed by scooped hydrogen, ok, no problem, though as a mass-produced fighter it would be a difficult pill to swallow, remembering that the Excalibur has an A/M plant already, and that Confed was drawing down military funding (presumably also "black" project funding as well... you can only hide so much "black" money in the Agriculture budget, after all).

But then it got ridiculous, putting heavy bomber firepower and protection on a hull whose performance was similar to that of a light/medium fighter. That was pure "munchkin", as far as I'm concerned. If it was basically a somewhat more maneuverable and moderately faster T-bolt (not the same T-bolt hull, of course) with cloak and self-replenishing fuel, it'd still get the jobs it was designed for done. But that apparently wasn't "sexy" enough, so the Origin designers went nuts making a twink's wet dream.
 
From each game:

WC1: The Scimirar, the Pinto of the galaxy...

WC2: Crossbow. What were they thinking?

WC3: Hellcat, it had no real strengths.

WC4: Hellcat, same old, same old...

WCP: Tigershark, it was the Hellcat in another form, just worse.
 
Death said:
But then it got ridiculous, putting heavy bomber firepower and protection on a hull whose performance was similar to that of a light/medium fighter. That was pure "munchkin", as far as I'm concerned. If it was basically a somewhat more maneuverable and moderately faster T-bolt (not the same T-bolt hull, of course) with cloak and self-replenishing fuel, it'd still get the jobs it was designed for done. But that apparently wasn't "sexy" enough, so the Origin designers went nuts making a twink's wet dream.
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hey, fair enuff... but i think u did pick on a minor issue (JMO)

i mean, it has good armour and shield (and weapons) for teh time, as well as the gizmos... but also it didnt have great maneoverability. what was it, like 67 or something... even in teh same era, i s'pose a skilled bearcat fighter could whack it in 1 v 1..

but i mostly took issue with the "2 centuries ahead" comment.. i dont think its that far, i mean a WCP ship like the vampire would absolutely kick its ass in a dogfight.

besides, we dont know how many were made, or their unit price.. its quite possible the cost was prohibitive, equivlent to a small warship perhaps, and blair possibly got to see most that were ever made in wc4 when he inflitrated the black lance base.. who knows... i dont think it was that unrealistic to build a ship that great in small quantities in that era.

i'm sure the US navy for example could build a really kick ass cruiser or similar that had absolutely everything (besides perhaps maneoverability) but it could prolly only afford to build just the 1 or 2 and is hampered by current technology and the physics of the sea ! heh. they prolly never do it, because they figure they could build more of a scaled down version, that on balance could get the job done + flexibilty of numbers.. which is prolly the rationale behind the bearcat that was a scaled down "superfighter" (albeit different role compared to the dragon) given that era..
 
AdmiralHuang said:
From each game:

WC1: The Scimirar, the Pinto of the galaxy...

WC2: Crossbow. What were they thinking?

WC3: Hellcat, it had no real strengths.

WC4: Hellcat, same old, same old...

WCP: Tigershark, it was the Hellcat in another form, just worse.
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yeah def. agree tho i dont recall the tigershark of WCP and havent flown all of the ships on wc2 yet...

in otherwords i despise the hellcat !! :D
 
wankski said:
hey, fair enuff... but i think u did pick on a minor issue (JMO)

i mean, it has good armour and shield (and weapons) for teh time, as well as the gizmos... but also it didnt have great maneoverability. what was it, like 67 or something... even in teh same era, i s'pose a skilled bearcat fighter could whack it in 1 v 1..
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Actually, that's why I used "light/medium". Medium fighter maneuverability, light fighter speeds (and autoslide, IIRC).

but i mostly took issue with the "2 centuries ahead" comment.. i dont think its that far, i mean a WCP ship like the vampire would absolutely kick its ass in a dogfight.
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Yay, someone who doesn't think the Dragon is "all that". :)

(Search on "dragon" on these forums, you'll see what I mean.)

besides, we dont know how many were made, or their unit price.. its quite possible the cost was prohibitive, equivlent to a small warship perhaps, and blair possibly got to see most that were ever made in wc4 when he inflitrated the black lance base.. who knows... i dont think it was that unrealistic to build a ship that great in small quantities in that era.
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We do know, from the novelization, that 40 Dragons total were available to Project forces at the start of the conflict, in 4 10-ship squads. 1 on the Princeton, 1 at Axius, and 2 on the Vesuvius (or maybe the other way around, for the latter two... I forget offhand). There might have been a few more made, but they weren't available for use as far as we know, and if the Axius base was their production center those would be taken down during the probable huntdown of Project forces after they and Tolwyn's plan were exposed by Blair.

(I know the only mention of the hunt down of Project forces is in Aces Club fanfic, but given the PR black eye Confed got from Tolwyn's genocidal plans, politically going all-out to clean out the remainder is a logical move... or at least as much logic as one can apply to a politician, anyway. ;) )
 
Hey Death, they used 16-plane squads in WC4. And there were at 12 Dragons on the Princeton.
 
I'd love to get a crack at a dragon from the pilots seat of a Raptor.

Raptors are awesome

Dragons are stupid

Single pointless sentences without punctuation are the new trend
 
Death said:
Actually, that's why I used "light/medium". Medium fighter We do know, from the novelization, that 40 Dragons total were available to Project forces at the start of the conflict, in 4 10-ship squads. 1 on the Princeton, 1 at Axius, and 2 on the Vesuvius (or maybe the other way around, for the latter two... I forget offhand). There might have been a few more made, but they weren't available for use as far as we know, and if the Axius base was their production center those would be taken down during the probable huntdown of Project forces after they and Tolwyn's plan were exposed by Blair.
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hrmm, so 40 is a definate number or more? anyway - i 'spose that number(ish) was what i had in mind.. a pretty limited run...

dragon exciting?? well i must admit i was pretty chuffed with it when i first had the chance to fly it in wc4... admit it, u must have too ! :D

but on reflection, playing 2 or 3 times over, the wow factor impression wears off, and in retrospect my absolute favorite ship is a stormfire-equipped banshee.. fire power, pace and agility in one sweet package... ;) woo UE was fun !! muhahaha

i'll take two !
 
personally, I didn't have a problem with the Dragon itself. The Black Lance were supposed to be some evil bad muthas, and the Dragon couldn't have showcased that any better. It just looked evil. I did have a problem with any thoughts of it being in ConFleet service afterwards, as some foolish advocates wanted back in the day.
 
overmortal said:
I'd love to get a crack at a dragon from the pilots seat of a Raptor.
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I don't know about that. Given pilots of equal skill, a Dragon would assrape any Kilrathi or Confed fighter designed before it came on the scene.

I suppose most post-Dragon fighters of any substantial combat capability, though, would be able to go after one without any special trouble, or even with ease in the case of the really badass ones. Didn't the Dragon obsolete itself by also introducing cloak-defeating optics along with its perfect cloak?

Anyway, as much as I love the Raptor, I wouldn't want to take one against a fighter that could come out of nowhere and dominate me in only a handful of shots. Or just plain nuke my carrier with a single weapon before I ever launched.
 
True, Frosty . . . so, when some blessed soul finally creates a multiplayer program in which we can fly all existing WC ships, I'll be glad to challenge you to a friendly duel with me in a Raptor and you in a Dragon. Sure, you'll probably win, but I'll still use good, solid flying and skill to give your fancy Dragon a run for its money. And possibly its vital components.

Just pray that I don't somehow end up with dumbfires. Your world will end in fiery shame :)
 
The Raptor would be a pretty nice piece of machinery in the WC3/4 era (though no match for a Dragon)

Armor would be thicker than that of a Thud (I think Isometal is 40x durasteel, 320 fore and aft, 240 right and left - hell it would be thicker than the Longbows in some places).
Top speed faster than a Thud (though even though the Isometal armor is the same thickness as Durasteel, it may be heavier, ie top speed would decrease or a slightly less advanced though lighter armor would have to be used).
The manueverability is probably on par if not better than the Thud (don't know what the in-game dps of the WC1/2 fighters are).
The problem you run into is missile loadout and energy weapons. 5 missiles and an energy weapon output of 150 cm/salvo put it more on par with the Hellcat than the Thud. I'm also unsure of how shield upgrades would affect the Raptor.
Therein may lie the limitations of the Raptor and maybe a good explaination (besides the one that it is still in service, we just don't see it) of why we don't see it in the later games rather than the Thud. It may be armored like a tank, but its limited offensive strike capability (and maybe its speed thanks to what maybe a heavier armor) make it inferior to the Thunderbolt.
Just some thoughts.

C-ya
 
The Tarsus ;)

Out of WC2, my worst is the Broadsword, close second is the Epee. It's much more difficult to fly an Epee than a Broadsword, but it's boring as all hell to fly a broadsword.

Oh, and anyone who hates the Ferret because of its "crap shields and guns" is a nublet :P. The Ferret's shields recharge faster than any other ship, and it's maneuverable enough to avoid most gunfire. If you happen to slip up and take a hit, you just have to back off for a few seconds. That's all it takes for your shields to recharge. There are few things more frustrating than fighting good Ferret pilots (in, say Academy) because unless you can score two or three hits in succession you will never shoot the Ferret down.

The Epee... is like they tried to give a Ferret more bite and totally bollocksed it up. It's got stronger shields, but they don't charge fast enough to be useful. It's got missiles, but they're heatseakers. It's got a more powerful gun, but it's difficult to hit with and you can't fire it for as long.

But the Broadsword... I'm going to go with the Strike Commander manual's use of the term "maneuvers like a pregnant yak". You can't do a damn thing with the front guns. The only effective way to kill anything is to use your turrets, but that requires that you hold still and let the baddies pour gunfire into your shields. That's perfectly ok for the first or second wave. But unless you enjoy sitting out of range of the capship you were sent to kill, going for coffee while you wait for your shields to recharge...
 
I think I'd make a good WC bomber pilot. I always loved the Broadsword. Sure, it's slow, but if you're resourcefull, you can come out on top every time.

The three turret stations (each boasting twin neutron guns, mind you) will save your ass if you're good at aiming without an ITTS. Plus, the enemy AI will usually take a second to recognize that it's getting pounded harshly, and so that poor sartha/drakhri/etc will sit there and plink at your shields while you decimate his face.

An interesting thing about WC2 is that mass drivers are particularly potent. Three full salvos (with all three rounds connecting) thrown into the nose of, say, a Jalkehi, will reduce said whiskery buffoon to scraps and flames. (or maybe it was four salvos). The ITTS will help you connect your shot beautifully. If he gets past your nose and is skimming by you, switch to your turret and give 'im a goodbye kiss on his way.

And, in the worse of situations, you DO have four FF missiles at your disposal. They're there for a reason.

Your only real worry is the AMGs on big kittens. A Ralatha's sunday punch will cut you to ribbons if you aren't terribly careful.
 
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