Revolting/Horrifying/Possibly a Bit Cool: A WC-Concept

Discussion in 'Fan Projects & Editing' started by K.J. Lesnick, Nov 20, 2010.

  1. K.J. Lesnick

    K.J. Lesnick Swabbie
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    Okay, I have kind of an idea for a WC-Remake. Now, I'm sure that the odds of this ever being done are nearly too low to calculate, but regardless, I'll post it anyway.

    I was thinking about a WC-concept under the premise of a character similar to Lance Casey's character in WCP: Basically a pilot who's character would be the son/daughter of a WC1 character. The difference is that this character would have to be old enough to be able to participate in the last few years of the Kilrathi War.

    Michael Casey (Iceman) could be used for this purpose: If he had a child when he was 21, he/she'd be born in 2644 and would be 21 in 2665 (around the start of WC2). Casey did have at least one child, a daughter, who was onboard a Kilrathi slave ship in 2654. I do not know if it explicitly stated that she was his only child, or how old she was, however.

    Joseph Khumalo (Knight) would also be another character. He was born in 2618 and could easily have fathered a child by the late 2630's or early 2640's. Being born around that time would put them in their early 20's by the late 2650's or early 2660's. This wouldn't be too far off from WC-1, but you could have a story-line start between the years of WC-1 and WC-2, which were not touched upon much, then of course, continue to WC-2, WC-3, and so on.

    Regarding the game-engine itself, I don't know exactly what I'd go for, but suffice it to say, I'd want to re-design the ships and fighters in WC-2 (possibly some in WC1) to give them a less cartoony look, combined with a better color-pallette similar to that seen in WC-3/WCP and so on, as well as re-scale the WC-2 fighters to a scale similar to that used in WC-1 and WC-3 -- this I've already come up with to some degree.
  2. Wedge009

    Wedge009 Rogue Leader

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    Firstly, welcome, this is certainly an interesting initial post.

    Secondly, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by having the player character have some experience in the end days of the Kilrathi War. With Lance Casey in Prophecy, I think the idea was to have someone who was completely inexperienced, just like Blair in WC1, and have him rise through the ranks, earning medals, promotions, etc. If the character already has a history of military experience, I think you lose some of that effect, that opportunity for the player to 'grow up' with the player character. Also, if the player character already has some years behind him/her at the start of the series, how old would he/she be by the end of it? Making the player character as young as possible allows for some room for sequels.

    Finally... do you have any relation to LOAF? o.o
  3. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation! Staff Member

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    She was his only child, born in 2646. Iceman's backstory in Wing Commander I was that his family was killed in a Kilrathi attack on Vega VII, which was what turned him into a quiet killer.

    (His daughter, Julia, was recovered from a slave ship in 2655... having spent essentially her entire life as a Kilrathi slave.)

    Chris Roberts said exactly the same thing--if he did a new game he'd want to redesign the original ships for exactly that reason... so I showed him Howard Day's models and that was the end of the discussion.

    I assume it's my sister, Kendra.
  4. K.J. Lesnick

    K.J. Lesnick Swabbie
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    Wedge,

    Thank you.

    This character would start out inexperienced; they would simply be inexperienced around 2665. Like Blair, this character would rise through the ranks, get medals, and promotions.

    They wouldn't have a history of military experience at the point where the remake would start. If they got their wings in 2665, they would be a nugget in 2665. They would simply be serving from 2665 on.

    The person would not have any years behind him/her at the start of the remake, and would be 21 years of age.

    *laughs* I've talked to some people in the chat-room and I've been asked that one a couple o


    LOAF,

    That would do the trick

    Which would preclude her from being able to be a Confed pilot. She would probably have virtually no education, completely illiterate, and would only know fragmentary Kilrathi words. You need to be very intelligent, well educated, as well as possess excellent coordination and cardiovascular fitness to be a fighter pilot.

    Do you think it would work to have Knight's kid flying for Confed as a main character? Or do you think it would be good to simply create a new character?

    I have two brothers, neither are named Ben.
  5. Wedge009

    Wedge009 Rogue Leader

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    Ah, okay. So you're aiming towards the last years of the Kilrathi War? Sorry, I presumed that you were thinking of something similar to Prophecy, after the Kilrathi War and Black Lance shenanigans.

    Okay... so LOAF is saying (I don't know if in jest or not) that you could be his sister, and you're saying neither of your brothers are named Ben.

    I'm confused. ):
  6. criticalmass

    criticalmass Vice Admiral

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    All this is academically really interesting - it might need some work to fit in another character with some recognizable ties to the old crowd, but with enough historical headroom to allow for a new story and a new game inside the well-known facts.

    But let me speak from a player perspective for a moment: Family history and all the little continuity details are great to create atmosphere, but in the end what counts is if the the character is believable, interesting, tragic, heroic and all the things that make a player identify with a fictional person.
    What I mean to say is: Where's the story here? Some bloke with a hotshot dad drudging his way up the military career ladder? Sounds a bit thin to carry a game plot, no matter how beautifully done the ships are.

    If the idea is to have a kids-of-heroes kind of story, then out of the blue we already have some great parts here: Who rescued Julia? What kind of CovertOps story combined with a romantic sub-plot tied in with a struggle between loyalties and cultural traits can be done with an ex-Kilrathi slave and the guy who scoops her outta there?

    And welcome, KJ, by the way.
  7. Dundradal

    Dundradal Frog Blast the Vent Core! Staff Member

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    This seems really familiar....oh wait it is....the name changes but the stupidity stays the same...

    Concordia in 2002

    Concordia in 2002 again

    Concordia in 2003

    Concordia in 2003 again

    Concordia in 2003 again

    Concordia in 2003 again

    Concordia in 2003 again Remember the purple Victory?

    Concordia in 2003 again!

    Concordia in 2004

    TopGun100 in 2006

    Miracynonyx100 in 2007

    Miracynonyx100 in 2007 again

    And now under new management as....KJ Lesnick...and in case you are curious...yes they are all the same person!

    To quote Psych who got it right back in 2003....

  8. K.J. Lesnick

    K.J. Lesnick Swabbie
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    Dundradal,

    You make it seem as if I've kept it some kind of secret that I was a member here before. Since you've seen me in the chatroom, you'd know I've readily admitted that I was here before, and that I had proposed remake ideas. In fact this title is kind of a joke about one member's opinion of a proposal I had.

    I have used the name Concordia in the past, I don't remember the password to that account, and I don't even remember which e-mail I used to go with it. As for TopGun100, and Miracinonyx100, until yesterday when it came up in a chat-room discussion, I had forgotten I even created those names, though it clearly is me.
  9. Dundradal

    Dundradal Frog Blast the Vent Core! Staff Member

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    That was just to remind everybody of previous interactions here. They always follow a similar pattern.

    Yes and your name used to be Victoria Kent so it doesn't surprise me you forgot your other logins but remembered the same stupid idea you propose every so often.
  10. K.J. Lesnick

    K.J. Lesnick Swabbie
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    I've been doing some thinking, and what would be interesting would revolve around some of the following ideas.


    Character-Selection Ideas

    I. I think it would be cool if you had the ability to edit the way your character looks (such as skin color, hair-color, hair-length, and height, and facial shape editing). This idea is commonplace on sports games, and such. Don't know how feasible it would be in this case, but it would provide a nice degree of individuality to your character.

    II. If any of you played Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force, there was the ability to play a male character, or a female character. Being that there are more females out there than you would think who play video-games, that would be a cool feature. Don't know how feasible it is, but it would be kind of cool in my honest opinion.

    III. Like all WC games, it would be a desirable feature to be able to select your own name and callsign. I assume the game engine would possess the means to audibly pronounce both names acceptably well enough to seem realistic.


    Character Data

    The character would be born in 2640 on Earth would enter the academy at 17. Being that in the 2650's in WC, they varied the academy lengths (I would speculate fighter pilots would probably only serve 3 years to squeeze in all the flight-training). So the character would graduate around 2661, and would be around 21.


    Plot Ideas

    Working on that...


    Game-Engine

    Flight-Dynamics: Most of the flight-dynamics from WCP were pretty good, especially the fact that the roll rates were substantially greater than the yaw and pitch figures (which is much more realistic), though I personally think the acceleration rates seen in WC1 and WC2 (not "good" "poor" "bad", just how quickly you got up to speed in the game) were more realistic than what would be later seen in WC3 and up.

    Being that in order to best explain how vessels in WC1/WC2 could maneuver like they were in air, travel so slow normally and yet traverse entire star systems in a reasonable time, the vessels were explained to use bussard-collectors, which draw in stellar hydrogen from space (Of course the speed you'd actually have to achieve to make use of such a technology would be ridiculous, for the purposes of a video game, it can make a useful plot device) which produces drag forces and thus limit top-speed, and allow atmospheric effects. In the novel, they could be switched off to allow a shelton-slide maneuver, or could be shut off to allow much higher speeds (a couple thousand kps) than normal to go from waypoint to waypoint in a reasonable amount of time. On fighter type vessels, the intakes draw in about as much fuel as they burn, so cutting the intakes causes you to burn fuel; if your vessel can jump, that also drains fuel too. I think this would be a good feature to incorporate into the game.

    Sizing & Scaling: I think the fighters and capital ships should all be set to the same exact scale. It sounds ridiculous, but in WC-3 and WC-4, they were set to different scales. WCP, however, had both set to the same scales. Being that WC-2 and WC-3 fighters are set to different scales, I have worked out a rudimentary system to smooth out the scaling issues.

    Shields: I'm thinking of modifying the phase-shield concept. I'm thinking having shields that regenerate pretty quick, not instantaneously quick, but very quick and have a very heavy cm-equivalent to make it hard to breach them. For this purpose you'd either have to hit them with something that could rapidly batter the shields down or one incredibly destructive burst, or you'd need something that could more easily breach the shield to get to the vessel's hull underneath, which would explain the torpedo use. The torpedo would emit a powerful dispersal field which would allow it to forcefully punch through the shield similar to how you'd use a hot knife to slide through butter, and slam the ship. To make it hard to get away with this, the enemy vessels rapidly rotate through shield frequencies, and perhaps use multiple frequencies at the same time and rotate swiftly through them. As a result it requires about 20-30 seconds to get the pattern down well enough to be able to put a torpedo on the ship that could produce the right dispersal field that could defeat the shield. Of course, unlike in WC2, I don't see an issue with being able to fire all your torpedoes at once -- after all once the ship has the shield pattern copied into it's computer it can simply give all the torpedoes the data. Keep in mind, the point-defenses will cut apart most of the torpedoes, and to add some difficulty, the enemy can periodically change it's shield-frequency shift pattern and the torpedo might-not get through. As for Anti-Matter Guns (AMG's), I think it would be good to have these guns rather than always bypass shields, to have a certain percent chance of slipping through various shield types. Say 75-100% for a fighter type shield, for a capital-ship's force-fields, it would be around 20%-30%. The Phase Transit Cannon, of course would have a 100% chance in the game of getting through any current capital-ship shield...

    Vessel Damage: I don't know how feasible this is, but ideally, I think it would be pretty awesome if there was some way to combine the best characteristics from Wing 1/2/3/4, and WCP. In Wing 1/2/3/4, when you shot at the body of the ship, the vessel took damage until eventually it blew up, regardless of whether it be the front, the left/right, the top/bottom, or the rear. In WCP, you could hit specific components like the bridge, the engines, and so on, but that was the only way to blow the ship up was to take out all the components, you couldn't take out the ship with "body shots". I think it would be good if somehow you could do both.

    Armor: I think it would be best to list the armor figures in centimeter-durasteel equivalent. After all, there are multiple types of armor in WC, and clearly it would be absurd to have some ships fitted with five meters of armor.

    Component Strength: Certain ship components might not be as strong as the predominant strength of the hull, some areas stronger. For example, the engines would be weaker.

    Core Strength: I'm figuring because these vessels have some natural structural strength to allow for g-load tolerance when maneuvering, that would provide at least some strength to the vessel. It's going to be less than the armor obviously, and certainly less than the shields.

    Character Interaction: I don't know what game engine would be used, but preferably it would have a high poly count and have a game engine that would allow the characters, once inside the ship, to be able to walk through the vessel, click various screens, and interact with people. Clearly the flight-deck, the primary flight control area, the bridge, the CIC, the recreation room, the flight-simulator area would all be important areas on the ship, though ideally, being able to roam anywhere on the ship that isn't off limits to your character would be totally awesome.
  11. criticalmass

    criticalmass Vice Admiral

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    Interesting piece of research, Dundradal.
    Sigh.
    *resigning from thread*
  12. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation! Staff Member

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    PROLOGUE

    LOAF sighed loudly. I'm getting too old for this, he thought to himself. I can't deal with Concordia or Microchronix or whatever his name is like I used to. But... wait! He paused: I know someone who can! LOAF hurried to his old desk, pushing away stacks of papers and diskettes, unsettling clouds of dust. With the mere press of a button and an interminable memory checking process and then several minutes of loading drivers...

    C:\> 4DFX.EXE 11222000 -R

    Bam! Wang! Bizoorm! A brilliant red column of light appeared and out of it stepped a familiar figure...

    "Hello, I'm Bandit LOAF... from the Year 2000!"

    "And I'm LOAF from the distant tomorrow of 2010!"

    "You've got a little more... and a little less..."

    "Now we're just ripping off the new Doctor Who."

    "There's a new Doctor Who?! The world of 2010 sounds amazing! What's the current Star Trek called?"

    "Uhm..."

    "Oh, I get it, too busy playing Privateer Online for anything else."

    "Ah, yeah, sure. Anyway, Concordia is back and I need you to make fun of him... her... it... in a manner pleasing to other readers."

    "Lets go--it's the role I was born to play."

    ARGUMENT


    You don't know how feasible it is in *what* case? It's a magic unicorn idea that exists entirely inside your own head and lacks both focus and goal. You can do whatever you want with it. It means nothing to anyone other than you in your fantasy world.

    It would not be feasible in a regular Wing Commander game, where the goal has always been to put you 'in a movie'. Interactive storytelling has been running face first into exactly this issue the last several years as players have become increasingly fed up with the 'silent protaganist' archetype (Half Life, Dead Space, Fallout, etc). Wing Commander has always tried to have a fairly bland main character (to allow the player to put himself in their shoes) but by necessity moved further and further from having customization as an option as the technology increased the ability to have an 'interactive movie'.

    Yup, pretty sure the Star Trek Voyager FPS game came up with that idea.

    I don't think you know what a game engine does... and you may not have played a Wing Commander game after 1991?

    None of this is interesting. There is no scenario where it matters and it's not how you write a story or create a character. Write the part people need to know and just freezing RELAX. No Wing Commandr protaganist was ever created by carefully figuring out how old they were and when they'd have time to go to a particular space school--that stuff all occasionally happened later when someone wanted to tell a story about Blair at the academy or the Privateer guy on his old ship or whatever.

    (Which is to say, what did you go into Wing Commander I knowing about Blair? Absolutely nothing. What background was written for him? ABsolutely none. When they decided to 'flesh him out' for Wing Commander II, what did they add... a detailed summary of when he went to school? No, they added a story about his being accused of treason and *nothing else*. Speaking as the person in the universe who cares the most about Wing Commander's fluff background material, no one really cares.

    You know, I was going to make fun of what a big stupid you were for saying that a game about space airplanes fighting space cat airplanes needed to be realistic... but we've seen that before. Everyone knows you're a big stupid for that. You big stupid.

    So instead I decided to think about what realism means in terms of spaceships and, it occured to me, that the only point of comparison was--are you with me here?--spaceships. Now real spacecraft don't have simple yaw, pitch and roll "rates" like the ones in Wing Commander... in fact, a search through angry usenet groups from the 1990s suggests that even asking the question gets you spit on a lot... and because of their wildly varying shape

    So what's the commonality? The "realistic" thing about their maneuverability is that it is ENTIRELY DEFINED BY THEIR ROLE AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. The shuttle has little thrusters that let it roll upside down because the mission epc requires it to be able to do that. It has others that let it pitch up and down a few degrees at a time because it needs to be able to do that when landing. A Soyuz has an entirely different set of thrusters for performing an entirely different set of maneuvers because its mission profile requires that.

    Which is to say that 'realistically' form fits function and not vice versa. Panthers and Vampires and bears are 'realistic' because they do the thing that the game required of them.

    It doesn't make a useful plot device in a video game, the games say absolutely nothing about this. It's a bit hidden away in a novel or two because a writer thought it was a fun way to explain why he was writing dive bombers in space. This is a nasty habit that needs to be beaten out of you--bussard collectors and years it takes at the academy and so on are all meaningless. They're tiny bits of background sprinkled in, not the basis or the haert of the Wing Commander world. They're fun little things for us to enjoy, not something anything should be built around.

    I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I get that you saw the big boys talking about this and you wanted to play too. Forget everything you don't know about ship lengths. You just aren't ready for it.

    Listen: there are two discussions here and they are COMPLETELY SEPARATE. The one we were having when you peaked in was about /why/ things happend behind the screens. How they decided the lengths in Prophecy versus the lenghts in WC1 versus the lengths in WC2 and how we thought one of those made more sense than the other. But forget all this, it's too meta for you.

    There is no elaborate comparative system of scaling that you're appealing to. In the canonical Wing Commander universe the ships are whatever length the manual says. There's no argument there.

    Even LOAF in 2000 is tired of this. Tired like he's tired of Wizzy being a dick. Hah! Anyway, I'm going to quote myself in an earlier thread: you're stupid.

    You're stupid.

    Oh, what a good thought, you mean like every manual ever? Should we add a note about how we should measure bottles fo milk in gallons and the distance between cities in miles? Just so people know.

    Good work, you came up with the thing the RealSpace games already do.

    They should have guns, too, for shooting stuff.

    A very wise man once told me that you don't build the sets for your film until you've finished the script. Do you know what that man's name was? COMMON SENSE.

    --

    Now, all that aside, I have to know--what the heck is your deal, man? I can't wrap my head around it and my head is enormous. You have the ceaseless determination to repetition of an autistic but the obvious scheming seems to rule that out. You're not socially inept, you just have some kind of... people paying attention to you fetish? Is that all it is?

    Think about it--you've been repeating this process this for TEN YEARS now! That is AMAZING. That's the time it takes high school kids to become surgeons, or World Wars to be fought multiple times or sweethearts to marry and have kids who grow up into human beings. And that's the stuff everybody else in the community has been doing! Growing and changing and leaving and coming and going and arguing and changing their minds and all that wonderful stuff. But somehow even though you follow us all and know everyone and watch us you stay the same creepy guy whose entire impact is that he likes to pretend to be a different woman in a fashion no one belives every few years to ask the same inane questions. How is that possible?! Even if you were a creepy ten year old when this gimmick started you'd be a freaking adult now. What is going on?

    So... WHY? What is WRONG WITH YOU? You don't have any obvious nd goal--you're not writing fan fiction, you're not actually making a mod... you're just saying things to get a rise out of people and your socializationometer is broken to the point that you don't know there's a joke that you aren't in on. We'll tell you things one night and you'll forget them the next morning (like last night where we said you should be normal on IRC!). It's SO DAMN WEIRD.

    And let me say that choosing my name this time is creepy as all hell. I don't know exactly what kind of seduction you thought you were going for this time but all I can imagine is some enormous psychopath wearing my sliced off skin and chewing goop off my bones and scribbling little heart-shaped notes about how we're married forever now.

    AFTERWORD

    "That'll do, LOAF, that'll do."

    "Thanks! So... tell it to me straight: is the Wing Commander community still great in 2010? Is all this worth it?"

    "Oh yeah. Chris, ace, LeHah, Trelane... they're all your best friends now... and you get to do amazing things with Wing Commander and EA that you never dreamed could happen."

    "I don't know who most of those people are, but that's cool. I'd best be off... to yesterday!"

    "Oh, by the way, on September 11, 2001..."

    "Yes?"

    "The Powerball numbers are 8, 13, 56, 16 and the magic ball is 24."

    "It's going to be the best day ever!"
  13. K.J. Lesnick

    K.J. Lesnick Swabbie
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    Bandit LOAF,


    If someone attempted to make a game out of the concept. I don't know how feasible it would be to incorporate all those features in.

    In most likelihood it will remain the product of some furious mental masturbation. It's an activity I engage in a lot. Regardless, even fictitious concepts I come up with, I always try to ensure that the concept could actually work (if it was possible to collaborate with a group of people and do something with all these ideas).

    I was thinking the idea would be that you'd have interactive scenes something like WC-Standoff (maybe some better graphics, but Standoff is good enough). Since the characters are computer rendered, the idea would be to configure the game so you could create fairly individualized character. I figured if you could actually walk through the ship kind of like the Star Trek Elite Force game, it would add depth to the WC Universe.

    In this case, the concept would be for something like WC Standoff. I suppose the character's behavior would be pretty much a part of the game, but the gender, name, callsign, and appearance could be yours.

    *Laughs* I'm pretty sure they didn't come up with the idea themselves. Honestly, I don't know who did. Regardless, it was an example I could readily think of.

    The game engine renders the 3D graphics of the ships, characters, whatever, in the game, as well as the characteristics that are programmed into them.

    If you had a ship with an assigned size, speed, and maneuverability figure would appear in scale, fly no faster than the maximum speed, and maneuver as programmed. A.I. characteristics would be featured in friendly and enemy vessels, so they would attack each other and fly in a certain manner.

    *Laughs* true enough. Most of the data on the character was simply to begin the timeline out. Basically the character would start flying around 2661. Maybe I should have simply started with that.

    Well, as Chris Roberts once said, if it was realistic you'd have a bunch of computer controlled sphere ships duking it out. Clearly that wouldn't be very interesting. Regardless, it would be realistic to at least have the fighters and ships maneuver in a manner that's more consistent with physics as we know it -- obviously it wouldn't be perfect, but it would enhance the quality of the game.

    I thought we both agreed to calm down. I've calmed down a bit, believe it or not, you look really annoyed.

    True, but in Wing Commander, all the ships have to be able to perform a similar set of maneuvers, which inevitably include yaw/pitch/roll. Some of them are better at it than others, but they all possess those capabilities.

    Of course, I'm not arguing with you here.

    Correct, however being that WC-vessels have to be able to perform a certain range of maneuvers, but rolling, pitching, and yawing are included in all of them. Some are better than others, but they can all do it.

    Regardless, roll-rates naturally on aircraft are higher than their pitch and yawing rates. The reason isn't entirely for the role they were designed for, but physics itself. G-load limits and structural loads restrict pitch and yawing rates when you're moving, roll-rates on the other hand impose a far lower limit on the aircraft. In WC, g-loads are of course pulled, they have devices to counteract the effects of those g-loads on the pilot/crew or you'd need a sponge to pick what's left of them up.

    I thought the WC-Bible and WC-Manual mentioned it too? Regardless, there are practical uses of shutting them off, you can accelerate to extremely high speeds that you'd never be able to do otherwise (and would explain how they could traverse significant parts of a star-system in a few days), and you wouldn't need an "autoslide" feature to do a shelton slide and such.

    I don't think it should be the most important part of the story, I just think it should be included in the story to enhance it.



    I understand the reason for the size changes, we went over it in the chat-room, regardless: I don't have a manner for scaling ships from the WC-2/WC-P scale to the WC-1/WC-3/WC-4 scale reliably, secondly there are some cases in which older ships are not rescaled (In WCP, the Excalibur, and Thunderbolt are still at their WC3/WC4 scales), thirdly there are more WC-games that use the WC-1/3/4 scales than vice versa, so it seems easier to convert the WC-2 scales to match the WC-1/3/4 scales.

    I have created the means to fit everything into place.

    The idea either revolved around averaging the size of the F-97 Wraith from Armada (35 meters) and the Wraith from Academy (19 meters), summarized as: [(WC-2 Length)*2.1875] / 2. Or simply multiplying the WC-2 length as follows: (WC2-Length) * (24/19).

    Using the first scaling method, the F-97 Wraith goes from it's WC-2 size of 16 meters, to 25.5 meters, which is about good for a WC-1/WC-2/WC-3 medium fighter

    • The P-64 Ferret goes from: 10.2 meters to 16.3 meters
      Which is smaller than any of the light-fighters from WC-1/3/4
    • The F-54 Epee goes from: 12.4 meters to 19.8 meters
      Which is similar in size to the F-36 Hornet, and the F-27 Arrow V
    • The F-57 Sabre goes from: 23.6 meters to 37.6 meters
      Which is similar in size to the HF-66 Thunderbolt VII

    Using the second scaling method

    • The F-44 Rapier goes from 19.0 meters to 24.0 meters
      Which brings it to the same size it was in WC-1
      The A-17 Broadsword goes from 36.0 meters to 45.5 meters
    • Which is huge, but when you consider it has 3 turrets, weighs 100 tons, and Cruisers and Escort Carriers cannot operate it, the figure makes sense

    The various armor types were not clarified in WC-1/WC-2/WC-3/WC-4/WC-P. It was only clarified in WC-Privateer.

    You can blow up individual engines, shoot off the conning tower, like in WCP, and deliver "body-shots"? Because when I played WC-4 you could shoot off turrets, but you had to deliver body shots to kill the ship.

    Makes sense

    Actually, I have Aspgerer syndrome, which is a autism-spectrum disorder. Which would explain my fixatedness sometimes. Luckily, I don't have any coordination problems.

    Actually, I used to be pretty inept -- At least once I was diagnosed with the disorder, I could learn how to work around most of the impairments.

    I think the psychological term would be narcissistic personality disorder. Regardless, I don't have NPD.

    I didn't actually realize how much time passed by. I know I've been here periodically over the course of a few years, but I was very surprised to realize I've been doing this since 2007.

    Actually, I did major in pre-med; I went to medical school for two years at which point I dropped out.

    Hey, if I actually knew how to program properly, or could get people to work with me on it, I would be making a mod!

    Uh, I make up fictitious names all the time. I could probably come up with a few dozen names probably. This surname, I've been using on other forums for a few years.

    Don't worry, I wasn't pretending to be you, or a relative; I figured it sounded like a name that nobody would make up (I mean, "Smith" or "Davis" is a surname anybody could think up... but who would cook up "Lesnick" or "Weissman" or "Leibowitz")

    I wasn't going for any kind of seduction, I was just using a name that I'd been using for a few years.

    If I actually remembered your last name was Lesnick, I can assure you I would have used a different name. You don't how how much of a complication this has been trying to explain this one away.

    Don't worry, I'm not into cannabalism, and I certainly would never wear another person's skin -- I've never considered serial killers to be a role-model.
  14. Dundradal

    Dundradal Frog Blast the Vent Core! Staff Member

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    You really suck.

    Still.
  15. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation! Staff Member

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    Well, you know, doesn't this speak to your essential problem? Everyone else here *is* collaborating with a groups of people to do things... and you're standing off to the side pretending to wear a dress and do crazy things for no apparent. You've put yourself in this position.

    Almost all characters will be rendered from here forward. The major technical hurdles remain the voicework and the scripting process.

    The awkward solution (see: Mass Effect) is to record both male and female dialogue and to apply them to whatever the character ends up looking like. That has some obvious drawbacks, many of which would hurt Wing Commander: it takes up twice as much disk space, it doubles the recording cost, it limits additional DLC and it forces writers to create broad dialogue for everyone that isn't reactive to the players' character choices (and of course even the two-recordings method isn't perfect for the main character; Commander Shepard as a 6'5" African American sounds just like Commander Shepard as a scrawny geek).

    (I would argue that the folks on the business side of things don't like it, either. EA is having a bitch of a time merchandising the completely user-design Commander Shepard--figuring out ways not to involve him in the novels and comics, how to do action figures without showing his face and so on.)

    There is a great, concurrent thread in the news forum (do not touch it, I am not kidding--read but do not touch) where we just talked about how even this information was far more than anything that ever went into the planning for the games. NONE of the Wing Commander games were even made with a particular year in mind. The people who made the good stuff didn't give a fig about this nerd stuff--it's detail that gets worked out later in one percenter spinoff material. The stories for the masses are written with nothing more than 'it's a few years after the last one' in mind.

    No, it would not enhance the quality of the game in the least--demonstrably so. Why is there a WCNews and not a MantisNews? Because the classic game was the one that was fun to play instead of the one with a slavish, game-breaking dedication to including 'Newtonian physics' (rather: how some nerd decided Newtonian physics must be represented in his otherwise impossible setting).

    Here is the short, non-comprehensive list of things you are wrong about on this point:

    - That realism is a single, measurable goal. I can see why you are confused because it seems like it's some kind of magic bullet, gramatically derived from science as it seems to be. In short, it isn't. There is no set of standards, there is no set of measures, there is no accepted concept of realism. The critique (and I hesitate to even call it that, it's more of a weasel word) is broadly applied to everything from character motivation to how impossible the physically impossible speed of a spaceship is in such a fashion so as to render it utterly toothless. In short, just saying that something is unrealistic has so little value as to even counterindicate any point you are trying to make.

    - That other people think the same things you have decided. I know that the neurons sparking in your tiny forebrain are telling you that *of course* everyone thinks the roll ratio of the Panther is unrealistic because... incomprehensible idiot reasons... but you need to understand that no, they don't. No one has the same problem with this as you do; you have an unnatural fixation about this that just makes everyone first uncomfortable and then lets them enjoy making fun of you. I hesitate to call it a mental problem because that would make light of your numerous other apparent mental problems... so let's go with mental block. Your job is to work through this.

    - That there is a correlation between realism and quality. I spoke to this above, but it's another mental block on your part that needs to be rooted out. The goal in game design is to create a game which is fun (or challenging or memorable), which is an entirely separate process than creating something that is (nebulously) 'realistic'. There is a reason why five million people buy HAWX and five thousand by Microsoft Flight Simulator--the former is an entertaining game and the latter is a hobbyist simulation. (And before your peabrain makes the leap, there is no market for a Wing Commander simulator because *nothing is being simulated*... the fact that we can recreate a 737 with a computer is tied directly to the fact that 737s exist in the first place to recreate.)

    - That realism is the counterbalance to something being unrealistic. This is a simple fallacy that may be at the heart of everything that's wrong with your thought (in the audience, Dundradal laughs) process. I see what you're thinking (quiet!)--if a mixture is too dry then you can add water, if something is too fast then you may slow it down and so... if something is said to be unrealistic then you can add realism? Not at all--it doesn't work here. Ignoring the (still absolutely essential!) diference between 'can' and 'must' in all of these instances, realism simply isn't a quantifiable substance... and it isn't something that can be applied without terrible consequences--because criticism isn't a single issue vector. Here is a good example: if I were criticizing the science behind comic books then I could reasonably say that it is unrealistic that Superman can fly. Men can't fly. In your very simple mind, the process would be would be: how terrible, I need to apply five quarts of realism to the mixture--now he can't fly. Except you didn't *fix* anything--you simply ruined the finished product.

    - That criticism is a sum game. No, no, no! This is one of the most commonly misunderstood things. Criticism is an analysis, not a repair manual. When we look at Wing Commander and we say that this-or-that is 'unrealistic', that's the endgame--it doesn't mean that there is an obvious path to 'fixing' these things or even that there is a problem in the first place. When we say look at this-or-that unrealistic thing we're thinking about how the games were made and figuring out why decisions were made in a particular way and analyzing how it impacted the end project... not insisting that that point be responded to with a realism injection.

    - That realism is even a goal at all. I don't think you are capable of swallowing this pill, but I'll shove it out there for the sheer shock value: no one's goal was ever to be realistic in the first place. Wing Commander is an arcade game that is decorated with beautiful things, not a flight simulator. The design process was to create a fun game, not a perfectly realistic future history. No one, ever, worried about any of this.

    Here's a fun trick--the next time you want to say something doofy about 'realism', force yourself to say the *entire* thing. So, instead of "the yaw of the Panther in Wing Commander Prophecy is unrealistic" you need to go whole hog and mention the part that has been implicitly silent every time you've posted: "in this impossible future history of World War II in space but with giant talking cats that relies on any number of physically impossible things like faster-than-light communication and slower-than-light lasers, I think (the think is actually important here) that the roll rate of the Panther is unrealistic." Pretty stupid, right? That's how we're all seeing you.

    Ah, no. Understand two things:

    - I am not posting for your benefit. I am posting because it entertains me and because it entertains my friends. I am not annoyed by your existence (confused, I suppose) so much as entertained by the carte blanche it gives me to argue through things and to put on a show.

    - What I said to you on IRC was that you were welcome to join the rest of us in reality. This means that I have no problem should you decide to drop your crazy gimmicks (hey everybody, I'm a gurrrrl, notice me!) and become an ordinary member of the community. That clearly hasn't happened--but there's infinite hope, so if you decide to switch off your broken parts and go back to being Bob Johnson who likes the same video games as us then I'm cool with that. I'll even tell Dundradal to stop harassing you.

    I'm not sure what you aren't understanding. If a Panther has a roll rate of 100 dps it's because (in the fictional Wing Commander universe) a fighter was built to that specification. If for some reason it *can't* have a roll rate of 110 dps then there's some story there, too--the spaceframe couldn't handle that and still have the nose turret or something. There's no super realism man who scoffs at inane crap like this.

    I also think you don't understand Wing Commander Prophecy on some base level; the Panther and the Vampire were both specially designed to focus on one aspect of maneuverability over the others. That's what the big moving thrusters on them are for. This was part of the game design because it was goin to be a big part of the multiplayer, letting gamers choose between the ship that yaws better or the one that pitches better (that's why there's two of every fighter type).

    (Ugh, I should not have explained that, since you don't understand how behind the screens stuff actors in to the continuity. And yet, you're really not my audience...)

    You thought wrong (...there's a surprise). The whole 'ramscoop' history comes from and is largely isolated to Dr. Forstchen's Wing Commander novels. You will never see it mentioned in a game or a TV episode or a film or a manual. In all likelyhood, 99% of the people behind the games do not even know that it exists. As with everything, you are taking something that is tiny and known only to a small percent of Wing Commander geeks and pretending that it is somehow an essential piece of the lore. Stop doing this.

    No, you don't understand because you're still thinking there are different scales. There aren't. There is the length printed in the manual and that's it. There's no way to "convert" a ship from Wing Commander I to Wing Commander III or any similarly pointless nonsense. I'm sorry I helped you understand where the numbers came from in the first place because you just aren't able to handle such an insignificant peak under the skirt. Let me state for what I hope is all time: there are no scales, there is no contradiction between the games... there is simply the number printed in the manual. There is neither need for, call for nor ability to change these numbers.

    Mope. Want to measure the Broadsword? Open up your Wing Commander II manual. That's all you can do.

    (Which I can speak to professionally, as I came up with the new Broadsword stats for Wing Commander Arena. We didn't trawl the message boards until we found a zany enough conspiracy theory that makes the number exactly the size I want for no apparent reason... we checked the Kilrathi Saga manual. That's how a canon works, sunshine.)

    I hate to deal with this any further and to remind you about a thing you're too dumb to grasp, but your goofy system doesn't even take into account the behind the screens stuff I explained to you on IRC:

    - Wing Commander I, III and IV's numbers are entirely made up. They're the lengths that the manual writers felt would be appropriate given a drawing of the ship. It's quite possible, although not established, that they are unusually large because someone early on confused meters and feet. The baseline does seem to be modern jet aircraft, but with something wonky abou the units.

    - Wing Commander II and Prophecy's numbers come from measuring the meshes (in 3DS and the in the properly scaled Vision Engine respectively). This is why they're so unusually precise. This is the kicker in your system, though--how can your perfect, useless system scale the Epee when the Epee has been "perfectly" measured already?

    They weren't clarified there, either--it's pure fanon. Privateer measures everything in centimeters of durasteel just like every other game. You can buy special armor that adds something extra to your ship, but none of the enormous pile of bullshit that is how fans interpret Wing Commander armor because of that actually comes from the game.

    Wing Commander III and IV have a mechanic whereby 'vulnerable' areas of the ship are dealt (1.5x) more damage with each hit -- ie, the tower with the windows, the engines, etc.

    Nope, bullshit. I wouldn't even buy it if I wasn't familiar with Aspergers as lonely internet geeks' number one self diagnosis. The, ah, definining characteristic of ASDs would make the process of social interaction alien. Yes, you'd just keep repeating the same question and not understanding where anyone else was coming from and that's certainly all part of your schtick...

    ... but you would be completely open about it. The reality of this situation counterindicates that--you understand how social interaction works to the point of trying to game it. A genuine aspie wouldn't have five different accounts to hide their past, they wouldn't understand that the previous posts were a problem at all. They wouldn't pretend to be a woman to get attention... the very mechanic of how that attention flows would be alien to them.

    Uh, no, I'm sorry to break this to you but you've doing this since at least 2002 (that's two, with a two)... and that's just as far back as the archives go. As best I can tell, the 2002 chat Zone was already sick of you.

    Did you drive there in your rocket car, or did you take the hoverbike? Seriously, do you really sit there thinking that people believe this shit? We don't. We aren't laughing with you, we're laughing at you. It's not even a friendly laugh at the clownish buffoon everyone loves to hate. It's a oh my God, look at this dreg of humanity, there but for the capacity for thought go I sort of a sad, forehead in hand laugh.

    Even if you did have some interesting personal background that you could talk about ad was true (and who doesn't? I'm fascinating!) then why would anyone believe it? Do you really not understand that the dude whose entire schtick is that he pretends to be five different women to get attention at message boards signs away his right to have anyone believe anything he says in the process? It's boy-who-cried-wolf simple, man.

    I think the lord doth protest too much. Wait, no, I'll go right out and say it: you're just plain lying. From the moment you showed up at the Chat Zone (several minutes before Dundradal and I had figured out who you were, by the by) you were yucking this weird, weird thing up. (And in fact, a little Chat Zone search reminds us that two of your previous incarnations did also have a creepy fixation with my full name.)

    Now, yes, it's just not okay to be a weirdo stalker in the first place. We'll leave that at that... but focus back at the beginning of this paragraph where you talk about how *of course* you have ficticious names! Earth to stupid--that's a fundamental character flaw on your part! There is something wrong with you! Seek medical attention! Do not pass go! Etc.!
  16. Dundradal

    Dundradal Frog Blast the Vent Core! Staff Member

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    LOAF another great piece of work...just some comments I'd add to yours.

    Let's not get crazy (oh wait too late...) but I'd certainly take it under consideration after an extended period of non-craziness but I simply do not see this happening. I'm sure if we had the old archives (hell maybe even a.g.w-c) that this has been going on even before 2002.

    Yep so the threshold for 2010 is very low. Once we realized we knew this person my normal pro-new posters attitude quickly changed to "Oh great this piece of crap again!"


    Yeah I was pre-med once...in kindergarten. Had a great thing going too until the teacher caught on to my "practice."

    What's great is that this is only the craziness from this forum...a little research shows that sheit does this all over. If they weren't so painful I'd say we post the IRC logs when sheit was talking about creating dozens of fake accounts in order to prevent from being perma-banned from aviation forums that can't stand this crap either. What's great is that sheit doesn't seem to realize WHY. The CZ posts are only half the story...the IRC stuff is just as hilariously crazy if not more so.



    The only good thing to come from all this was it was a reason to bring back the great purple Victory graphic. Everybody needs to know where Rollins' house is.

    And as I finish this while listening to Pandora what comes on but...Fine Young Cannibals "She Drives Me Crazy." Now we all know you aren't a female, but we'll make due.

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