Pilgrim and Kilrathi War

Discussion in 'General Wing Commander Chat' started by gevatter Lars, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral Staff Member

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    I was just browsing through the Wiki and read about the Pilgrim war when I noticed that the Pilgrim war ending was basicly right before the Kilrathi war started. Is that right?

    Pilgrim war 2631 - 2634
    Kilrathi war 2634 - 2669

    Would that also be a reason why Confed wouldn't have done anything about the Kilrathi raiders in 5 years before the "Anna Magdalena" massacre?

    Also what do you think, would Confed have declared war at the time of the massacre even if the Pilgrim war wasn't over? How much longer would Confed had let the Kilrathi go unpunished.
    I find that kinda interesting.

    Reminds me of another question...the first Bengals where build before the Pilgrim war as ultility carriers.
    First what exactly do we understand under a utility carrier in the WC Universe? A ship mostly dedicated to carrie groundforces with a bit of fighter support?

    Also what ships where build as MK1 carriers and what carriers where from the second run?
    TCS Bengal -> utility carrier
    TCS Tigers Claw -> 2nd
    TCS Kipling -> 2nd
    TCS Wolfhound -> 2nd

    That is what I think/know. What about the others?
    Also where the old ones later also converted/refitted or where they just decomissioned?
  2. Aginor

    Aginor Rear Admiral

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    I don't know about the Pilgrim war, but concerning the Bengals:
    Before the Kilrathi war only big ships were really effective in space combat, so there weren't much carriers. You had fighters vs. fighters and fighters vs. planet combat. So it is logical that most fighters had their base of operations on planets, since you can't use phase shielding on everything on a planet's surface.
    So based on that: Carriers were something minor, they didn't build fleets around them, but just using them as part of a battlecruiser's group. For reconnaissance and carrying stuff around. And of course for marines dropships.

    That's my (completely uncanonical) explanation of utility carrier. :)
  3. Mace

    Mace Vice Admiral

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    Well, those mutual differences will be set aside to attack a common enemy. Kilrathi are also likely to be fighting amongst each other until they find someone else to fight.
  4. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral Staff Member

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    Yah though along the same lines. Also from what I read todays utility carriers are also providing goundforces with airsupport.
    Thing is the wiki states "utility carriers that would go on to serve in both independent and fleet roles". This would be quite the oposite to what I would think if a utility carrier.

    I also noticed a problem with the wiki statements.
    It says that the first ship of the line was the TCS Bengal build 2619 with more to follow.
    Then it says that the TCS Kipling was the second one to be build in 2645 but the Claw was build in 2644. One year earlier then the second build ship?
    So who is the second ship in line? The Kipling or the Claw?

    Also did confed not build any Bengals between 2619 and 2644? That would mean that the TCS Bengal was the only ship of its class to participate in the Pilgrim war while all the others where build ten years after the start of the Kilrathi war.
    On the other hand the wiki reads like there would have been other Bengal-classes around and that only the remaining hulls where upgraded to the later version with the Kipling and Claw beeing the first ones of the new line of ships.

    Also when the Bengals only entered service ten years after the war started...what was the main carrier during the first 10 years of the Kilrathi war?
    I am also interested what kind of ships (fighter, bombers, captial) where in use before we get to know the WC1 stuff. Also if there is any art done for them. I know NinjaLA did some concepts for them.


    About the Pilgrim.
    The Kilrathi attacked Confed constantly before the offical declaration of war and that didn't stop the Pilgrim from wageing war against confed.
    Also from what I read the Pilgrim had quite a "superiority complex".
  5. Aginor

    Aginor Rear Admiral

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    There are several old ships mentioned in the books, especially in Action Stations:
    - Wildcat fighter (might look similar to the Hellcat, the name could mean it is its predecessor.)
    - Granicus-class heavy corvette
    - some light corvette the Landreich still has somewhere.
    - Gladiator (space-to-surface bomber)
    - Gotha Surface-to-Space Interceptor
    - Hawk atmospheric fighter
    - Hurricane (space-to-surface fighter, inferior to Wildcat)
    - Sheridan marine landing craft
    - Minotaur (VERY old fighter, over a hundred years old in 2634)
    - Thor bomber
    - Trident heavy bomber
    - Hummer Light Recon and Strike Plane
    - Falcon (heavy fighter/bomber)
    - Merlin (fighter)
    - Broadsword

    I think I missed one or two, IIRC there was another corvette mentioned.

    http://www.wcnews.com/wcpedia/Category:Confederation_Fighter_Class_Names

    We don't know much about them (except maybe that they are somewhat inferior to newer fighters). I think the number of guns of one of them is mentioned somewhere, and I think I also remember something about a fighter having 4 guns but could only use 2 of them simultaneously, so no "full guns" in the early days, probably because of the gun capacitatators (this word looks wrong somehow) or reactors.


    As for the Bengals: IIRC everything kinda makes sense if you don't include the movie stuff. But since you are talking about Pilgrims and such things.... I don't have a clue.
  6. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    The way I read it, there were carriers around before the Terran-Kilrathi War. The Yorktown-class - the same as TCS Victory - for sure was in existence at least fifty years prior to the start of the Kilrathi War (which lends itself to just how worn down she was at the time Blair served on her, and really makes you wonder just how old Eisen is, seeing as he was comm-o on her maiden voyage and all). Some sources reference an even older Ranger-class; I'm not as sure about that one.

    Regarding Bengals: TCS Bengal was the first ship of the class. Tiger's Claw was the first ship of the "second line" of the Bengal-class, and Kipling was the next ship commissioned after Tiger's Claw. So Kipling was not the second ship of the class, she was the second ship of the second line of the Bengal-class (hopefully that's not confusing).
  7. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral Staff Member

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    Thanks I also searched the Wiki for these. As for Capships...I haven't done my homework yet.

    The movie istn't much of a problem concidering the Bengals, neither are the Pilgrims as a faction. I don't know if in the novels the Pilgrims also have these "force-powers". Can someone tell me if they do? I don't have any of the novels as they where never release here and I haven't found them so far.

    [Edit] Thanks for the update on the Bengals. So I have just missinterpetated it.
    So the list would be

    1st run
    TCS Bengal

    2nd run
    TCS Tigers Claw
    TCS Kipling
    TCS Wolfhound
    TCS Kyoto
    TCS Trafalgar

    that leaves the folling carriers to be sorted out
    TCS Beacontree -> Would like to see that in the 1st run as it would be kinda sarcastic to have the TCS Beacontree attack the Beacon system. That was the last "battle" of the Pilgrim war
    TCS Eagle's Talon
    TCS Exeter
    TCS Vanguard
  8. Kyle Maverick

    Kyle Maverick Commodore

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    Wasn't the Trafalgar shown in the WCA TV series? If it was her, then she was a second run version, as she looked just like the Claw
  9. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    Yes, Trafalgar was in the episode "Chain of Command" under the command of Admiral Bergstrom; she was also ambushed and destroyed in that same episode.
  10. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral Staff Member

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    Right I remeber that episode. So Trafalge is moved to 2nd run.
    When we say that all the ships we don't know anything of yet are first run it would be 5 1st run and 5 2nd run vessels.

    Sounds good to me.
  11. Wojo

    Wojo Captain

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    Just drawing from material in the film & the Condeferation Handbook, the Pilgrims didn't have 'super powers' as such, it appears they had more of a 'sixth sense' in terms of navigation. There was an article floating around here about how migratory birds can sense magnetic fields and use these to navigate long distances, and similarities to Pilgrims in this way.

    The idea of telekinesis & mind control/reading is (I think) entirely contained in the novels. An idea I wish I could un-read...
  12. gevatter Lars

    gevatter Lars Vice Admiral Staff Member

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    The idea that humans could develop something similar to birds...I could life with that. Telekinesis and mind control are realy not fitting into WC at all.
  13. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    In general, I agree - psionics doesn't fit well with the WC universe as it was established prior to the movie. Of course, the movie was a bit of a (largely unnecessary) reboot, but still...

    Playing devil's advocate here, I recall hearing a theory (or maybe it was just more sci-fi; can't recall) that suggested that as people move away from Earth and onto alien worlds, they'll stay human at first but evolutionary forces would dictate that they and their progeny would adapt to the alien environment. The kinds of changes that these people would undergo couldn't really be predicted, so that in ten to twenty generations they could be so different that they could no longer be called human - effectively, they've become an alien race. Now, if I recall the Confederation Handbook data, Pilgrims left the solar system sometime around the 23rd or 24th century, so they've been away for at least 400 years, or twenty generations. So, they would've adapted to their new, alien environments, and the development of psionic powers is thus possible. This of course all hinges on a) if you accept the movie as canon and b) if you can believe this crap.
  14. Bandit LOAF

    Bandit LOAF Long Live the Confederation! Staff Member

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    That's not what canon is.
  15. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    What's not canon, the movie or the novelization?
  16. -danr-

    -danr- Commodore

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    I think he meant the leap you made to rationalize that Pilgrims had evolved over the 400 years they'd been away from Earth. I don't know if this is what you were implying? Certainly we could agree that 20 generations living on an alien planet is time enough to adapt -- but the theory that humans physically evolve once away from Earth is external to canon.
  17. AD

    AD Finder of things, Doer of stuff Staff Member

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    No, LOAF is saying that the discussion is irrelevant to what *Canon* means in relation to this discussion, and specifically to this statement: "This of course all hinges on a) if you accept the movie as canon and b) if you can believe this crap."

    Whether anyone likes the movie or wants to ignore it has no relevance to Canon (which does include the movie events and lore). It's not a personal thing.
  18. capi3101

    capi3101 Rear Admiral

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    Ah. Poor choice of words on my part; of course the movie is canon. And "By this crap", I was specifically referring to what I had just said, and not to the notion of psionics in the WC universe.

    I would argue that canon is somewhat of a personal thing, but that's a topic for another thread and another time, and I'd rather not irritate another site admin this week if I can at all help it.

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