Missile Slingshot bug

Yeah, neither speed-matching nor speed caps make any sense physically in space, unless one justifies speed cap and fast turns by some technology allowing ships to "grab onto the fabric of space", but I think Einstein gets restless in his resting place when we try to make speed non-relative. So, trying to make sense of speed matching, one should begin NOT with capping the resulting speed, but by capping acceleration, instead. But in any case, the original Privateer was obviously not intended as an educational software package to teach kids physics ... :eek: ... with ships not just having wings for the sake of atmospheric gliding, but actually flying through space as if they were in the atmosphere,
banking in order to turn faster !!! LOL!! From the point of view of fighting in space, Privateer is an arcade, not a simulation by any stretch. Sheldon slide would be the default in space. And, sure, you could match speed with anything slower than a photon, given enough fuel and the will. But acceleration to that speed could take a long time.

Solution:
Going to a true physics engine is not an option for the remake, as it would become too different from the original. And as it was stated earlier, the main reason for speed match was to allow you to follow the boxes from an exploded ship. So let me attack the implied premise here:

The assumption is that a ship explodes like it's made of pure gasoline, and that whatever it carries should acquire a high velocity as a result. Or that another ship might bump into a box and cause it to bounce at great speed.

I'll argue away the last point first: Bumpin with your ship into a food box would just obliterate the box itself and splatter its contents over the four quadrants. This would be the case even if the box and contents were actually a solid block of magic rubber. Try throwing a ball of any material at even 1 Km per sec into a wall, and you'll see it becoming a cloud of smoke, rather than bouncing.

As for the first premise: I don't know what kind of fuel these ships carry, but it's definitely not gasoline. Now, if the explosion they make when you kill them is from their fusion engines going critical, or from their anti-matter stores suddenly hitting the matter in the container, a nuclrear explosion, needless to say, would leave no neat boxes floating around, or any way to tell atoms coming from a box from those coming from the pilot's ass.
If the explosion is caused, instead, by weapons caches going off, well, there aren't so many weapons on these ships, I mean, they got all kinds of plasma and particle guns, but only 10 or 20 missiles. This could be enough to cause a pressure gradient in the ship that causes parts of the hull to fraction, pretty much as in the pretty effect. What would happen to the boxes in the cargo, in this case, is that they would kind of float around, rather than be projected away. Why? Because what gives parts of the hull a high velocity was the pressure gradient at the moment of the hull's ripping apart. But at that very moment, the pressure gradient on each individual box in the cargo room would be zero, as pressure rises fairly equally around each box.

And so the solution is: Let the boxes float around with roughly the same speed vector the exploding ship had, or even cheat and assume that the explosion slowed the ship down and let the contents drift at a fraction of the original ship's velocity. And let the boxes be obliterated on impact.

As for using speed matching against ships, like for escorting, etc., well, if we're going to have max speed, and the remake definitely has to have it, then make it stick, and don't let ships match speed with objects moving faster than the ship's max speed.
Makes no sense to me, but neither does a speed limit, so, there.
 
Cargo does float around with zero or near-zero velocity after an explosion. It only takes off when you bump it.

I beleive cargo disintegrated if you bumped/rammed it in the original, but my memory is hazy. Regardless, the high resulting velocity makes perfect sense in the context of momentum conservation.
 
Conservation of momentum applies to subatomic particles, and in the abstraction of perfect spherical objects of infinite elasticity. If you shot a 105 mm shell at a stationary bus, conservation of momentum might give you the wrong impression that the shell will bounce back with a speed about 99% as great as the original speed, and that the bus will now be moving at say ten km/hr. That's not what happens though.
In the original Privateer, even as much as touching a box with your ship at negligible velocity, made the box or object explode. That's an exaggeration at the opposite extreme.
What should happen is that hitting it at high speed should obliterate it. Hitting it at VERY low speed should make it bounce. And hitting it with slightly more than VERY low spead should just break it and the contents visibly spill out and away, following some distributed law of conservation of momentum.
 
the "match speed" function won't allow you to catch boxes, as you're never going faster than the box and will simply maintain the same distance. Hasn't the dev team already said that was going to be removed/fixed in the next release?
 
JKeefe said:
I beleive cargo disintegrated if you bumped/rammed it in the original, but my memory is hazy. Regardless, the high resulting velocity makes perfect sense in the context of momentum conservation.
Let's not get carried away. The physics here are fairly simple and dictate a max *speed* equal to the sum of the speed of the two (small piece of cargo vs big bulking ship). This can be seen fairly straightforwardly by simply chosing a different reference system (as we are free to do per Newton), specifically that of the ship. In this coordinate system, we have a cargo crate moving at a speed of v(ship)+v(cargo) (where both these are in the universe coordinates). The best case for the cargo is an elastic collision: Think rubber ball thrown at a wall. The ball isn't going to come charging away with a higher speed than it had before it hit the wall (conservation of energy).

In any event, I tried to get my ship to hit a piece of cargo, just to see how things worked, and it turns out that cargo is completely permeable to player ships (at least). Possibly self-ejected cargo cannot be "bounced"? Or maybe AI ships are the only ones capable of impacting cargo?
 
Chernikov said:
the "match speed" function won't allow you to catch boxes, as you're never going faster than the box and will simply maintain the same distance.
That is incorrect.

The speed matching function sets your base speed (notably speed, not velocity, for some odd reason) to that of the target. You can then use your own engine + burner to add another 1000-1200 kps to that, enabling you to catch stuff.

I did have a pilot I couldn't catch at one point, however. Strangly enough, I could Auto to within 15k, but then he would simply outrun me. I don't remember for sure if I tried to speed match him, though. Now that I think about it, I may not have.
 
I'm not going to argue physics here indefinitely. Simply put, and assuming both objects are elastic and indestructible, if an relatively heavy object hits at relatively very light object, the relatively very light object will go shooting off into oblivion.

This isn't a bullet hitting a bus. This is the space shuttle in low earth orbit running into a box. If the box doesn't destroy the space shuttle, like it would in real lfe, then it would go flying off at very high speed.
 
JKeefe said:
I'm not going to argue physics here indefinitely. Simply put, and assuming both objects are elastic and indestructible, if an relatively heavy object hits at relatively very light object, the relatively very light object will go shooting off into oblivion.

This isn't a bullet hitting a bus. This is the space shuttle in low earth orbit running into a box. If the box doesn't destroy the space shuttle, like it would in real lfe, then it would go flying off at very high speed.
Yes, but if the box was at rest, it wouldn't go flying off at a higher speed than that of the shuttle.

This really is physics 101. Trust me, I've tought it.
 
fyodor said:
Yes, but if the box was at rest, it wouldn't go flying off at a higher speed than that of the shuttle.
Of course it would.

Conservation of momentum states that the sum of the system's mass-velocity products is the same before and after a collision:
M = mass of ship (assume 10000 kg)
V = velocity of ship (speed of ship, I'll keep this scalar)
m = mass of box (assume 10 kg)
v = speed of box
1 = before collision
2 = after collision

M1V1 + m1v1 = M2V2 + m2v2


Now, assume that before the collision the ship is moving at 100 m/s and the box is at rest. V1 = 100 and v1 = 0

(10000 kg)*(100 m/s) + (10 kg)*0 = (10000 kg)*V2 + (10 kg)*v2

1000000 - 10000*V2 = 10*v2

v2 = 100000 - 1000*V2


If we assume a small but measurable velocity decrease of the ship, say 0.5 m/s, then V2 = 99.5 m/s, and v2 = 500 m/s

Therefore, v2 > V2.
 
JKeefe said:
Of course it would.
You are incorrect.

If we assume a small but measurable velocity decrease of the ship, say 0.5 m/s, then V2 = 99.5 m/s, and v2 = 500 m/s
This is where you are making the mistake. By choosing your decrease, you can use conservation of momentum to make the final velocity *exactly* what you want. This clearly isn't "physical", so let's try and take it one step further without making these random assumptions (that, by definition, can be made such that *any* result is possible).

(INSTERT: In fact, I can easily *prove* that your result is incorrect. Just calculate the total energy of the system before and after! You've just created energy out of nothing. Given your numbers, you get 100e6 J before and 101e6 J after).

Instead, what we need to do is to look at the best-case scenario (for getting the result *you* want), which is an elastic collision. Can we at least agree on that? I.e. that the exit velocity of the small object will be the highest for a collision where energy is not lost due to generation of heat, compression etc.

Ok, so for an elastic collision, how much momentum does the big object lose? (i.e. how much does the small object gain, given conservation of momentum).

Conservation of momentum:

m*v1 + M*V1 = m*v2 + M*V2

Conservation of energy:

0.5*m*v1² + 0.5*M*V1² = 0.5*m*v2² + 0.5*M*V2²

You now have two equations with two unknowns (given any starting conditions you choose), v2 and V2. Feel free to do this excercise yourself ;-)

Of course, it's much easier to intuitively *see* all this, if one just chooses a different reference frame (in this case a coordinate system centered on the larger object) - which we are free to do.
 
Oh crap. Damn you, conservation of energy. I humbly concede; generally my physics arguments are not against other physicists. Generally they are right, too. :)

And I did the exercise myself, like a good physicist. You're right, of course. I seem to recall screwing up this same problem in high school...
 
For the lazy, here's the "answer" to the collision problem (the algebra is a tad tedious, so I'll leave it out):

v2 = v1*(m-M)/(m+M) + V1*2M/(m+M)
V2 = v1*2m/(m+M) + V1*(M-m)/(m+M)

No assumptions about which is heavier has been made (nor anything about the velocities). Simply conservation of energy and momentum.

Ok, so let's look at the extreme that we talked about: A *huge* mass moving into a small mass, i.e. M>>m. In this case, the above equations reduce to:

v2 = v1*(-1) + 2*V1

IOW, for the stationary piece of cargo, it would never go thundering off at some ridiculously high velocity.

You'll note, however, that I forgot a factor of 2 in my original the original argument :(
(and thus also royally screws my choice of frame of reference - that'll teach me to select an accelerating frame of reference)
 
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