Midway Carrier Program - Pros/Cons

[pygmypiranha]

Do you feel that the Midway carrier program was a good idea?

Some argue that the Midway program was an excellent idea because it allowed the combination of all the capital ships in a carrier battle group into a single platform that could take on several tasks at once (sorta the WC equivalent of Star Trek's Galaxy Class explorers). Others state that it is too much of a gamble putting all your eggs into one basket, thinking that it is too risky a choice despite the financial savings from not having to build as many ships.

So the question is do you support Col. Blair in his push for this program?

 

[Wedge009]

Bleh, you didn't need to start a new thread for this.

And the Midway was designed to be a stand-alone carrier force in peacetime. As stated before, in the case of a war, the Midway is supposed to form the centre of a fleet.

And I don't think Blair pushed all that hard for it, if anything it was Paladin, sorry Senator Taggart, who pushed for the funds to be granted for the Midway program.

 

[twiligh81]

I've never been a fan of the "Fleet in a ship" concept, it may be cost efficient but from a strategic/tactical point of view it sucks.

1- Mobility, a ship the size and capabilities of the Midway is SLOW (as we see in Prophecy), and it cant use many jump points (as evidenced by the Vesuvius in WC4), which means an enemy fleet of smaller faster ships can easily evade/out maneuver a super ship like the Midway. All the firepower in the universe wont do you a damn bit of good if you cant get it WHERE you need it WHEN you need it there.

2- Redundency (or rather the lack thereof), as Zero so elloquently put it "This ship (the Midway) gets hulled, what then? They (ConFed) put all their eggs in one (no so ) little basket with no backup..." Many people point out that the Midway is SUPPOSED to have escorts and other support ships in wartime, but as we see in Prophecy things dont always work out that way.

The Concordia and Vesuvius also seemed to follow the "Fleet in a ship" concept, if to a lesser extreme, but things didnt exactly work out well for them did they?

Although there is an exception... Recon In Force, for that particular (very important) mission, the "Fleet in a ship" concept works, a single Cerberus or Waterloo (which also seems to be a strike cruiser in all but name, relatively fast, heavily armed and carring a fair number of fighters), is much better then a standard Kilrathi War era RIF task force (light/escort carrier, cruiser, 2-3 destroyers/frigates, plus often a supply ship or 2), for a number of reasons.

1- Stealth, a RIF group must evade enemy forces as much as possible, it simply doesnt have the firepower and stamnia to fight any kind of prolonged engagement with heavy enemy forces, and its much easier to hide one ship then half a dozen.

2-Cost, many RIF groups never come back from enemy space, a single multi-purpose ship is much cheaper in money, and lives, then half a dozen specality ships.

hmm... think maybe i have too much time on my hands to analyze the comparative ship design concepts of a fictional universe...?

 

[StarLight]

Peace time good, war time bad. Mostly on the run in WCP until it runs into the Eisen carrier group, from then on the missions are mainly offensive.

Considering it was built in peace time and there were no definite wars on the future horizon, it was a good idea, especially with costs. It also has the ability, although somewhat limited, to be used in main offensive strikes against fleet opponents.

Did they make anymore Midway class carriers?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Peace time good, war time bad. Mostly on the run in WCP until it runs into the Eisen carrier group, from then on the missions are mainly offensive.

Well, to be fair, the situation in Prophecy was fairly unique -- she was on her shakedown cruise without a full crew or fighter complement yet assigned. During a war, as the ICIS manual points out, the Midway-class ships will act as fleet carriers rather than 'mobile bases'.

Did they make anymore Midway class carriers?

Yup. Ten were under construction. We see the second, the TCS Mistral Sea, mentioned in one of the Secret Ops trailers.

1- Mobility, a ship the size and capabilities of the Midway is SLOW (as we see in Prophecy), and it cant use many jump points (as evidenced by the Vesuvius in WC4), which means an enemy fleet of smaller faster ships can easily evade/out maneuver a super ship like the Midway. All the firepower in the universe wont do you a damn bit of good if you cant get it WHERE you need it WHEN you need it there.

Well, two things...

* The slow speed of a large carrier is only an issue during combat. When you're trying to get the Midway from one system to another, it would travel with scoops closed and would arrive very quickly.

* The indication is that the jump mass issue is no longer a problem -- the Kilrathi had eliminated the issue with their Hakaga class, and a similar innovation has probably reached new Confed ships by 2681.

The Concordia and Vesuvius also seemed to follow the "Fleet in a ship" concept, if to a lesser extreme, but things didnt exactly work out well for them did they?

Depends -- like most ships in the war eventually war, the Concordia was destroyed... but in the seven years she served she was one of the most decorated ships in the fleet. According to Tolwyn at the beginning of Fleet Action (so, before the Battle of Terra) Concordia had destroyed eight carriers, twenty other capital ships and had served in nine major fleet actions. Confed certainly got their moneys worth (G)

Further, in the case of Vesuvius, it should be pointed out that she could not have been destroyed without the help of *another* Vesuvius class ship...

 

[TopGun]

I like the Midway.

Each Midway-Class Ship would be the Flagship of a fleet, the fleet could then be spread across the galaxy

 

[twiligh81]

True, but even with scoops closed a ship the size of the Midway would not accellerate as well as a fleet of smaller more conventional ships, so there is still the posability of enemy fleets bypassing Midway class ships and endangering ConFed's core systems before the Midways could catch up.

As for the jump mass thing, i belive you're refering to Thrak's speech in Fleet Action, he doesnt make it clear weither he means the ability to use some jump points, or the ability to use ANY. My interpertation was that they had over come the problems with very large ships being able to safely jump AT ALL, which would help explain why there are no 'super ships' except near the very end of the K-war, eariler in the war, very large ships could have been built... but they wouldnt have been able leave the system they were built in. The Vesuvius/Midway probally used the same technology, so they could jump.. but still couldnt use ALL jump nodes.

Well i concede the point about the Connie, she did give valuable service to ConFed, as for the Vesuvius we dont KNOW that ONLY another Vesuvius class could have beaten her, simply that a single escort carrier (the Intrepid) wasnt able to

It is certinly at least possable that a conventional CVBG could have defeated her, but the UBW didnt have one available so we'll never know.

In any case, im not saying that the Midway, Vesuvius, & Connie are fundamentally "bad" ships, they're not, just that in my considered, semi-knowladgeable opinion, ConFed would have been better served by a greater number of smaller more conventional ships.

 

[Viper61]

After seeing many threads like this throughout my time here, I've been persuaded that the Midway program is a good one. At first I didn't think so at first but I think in the end it comes down to power projection. I don't know how many fighters an Eagle class carrier carries (which are the replacements for the aging WC3 WC4 jeep carriers) but hte Ranger class ships only carried 40 ships if memory serves me correctly. So to equal the offensive power projection of the Midway class carriers, you would have to have at least 10 Ranger carriers called to 1 region of space, which would take alot of that valuable time that's being discussed here. The issue of speed is nothing when you consider it with scoops closed. The issue of how large the Midway is and how big of a target? Come on, if you were in a battle you could see something that was a few hundred meters long just as well as you would see something 2 to 3 times that size. If you are referring to torpedo runs, I don't think we have one instance (even in the novels - actually I think there was one in Action Stations, but that was the infancy of torpedo technology) of a ship avaoiding a torpedo strike because of it's manueverability. Maneuverability only comes into play when 2 capships are duking it out and if a carrier has to get into one of these battles, it's fighters have already failed in their duty. Carriers were never meant to slug it out with their main guns.
I think a better question in the WCU is what happened in the 9 years between WC4 and WCP that changed Blairs view on carriers. IN WC4, in his conversation with Tolwyn, he seems to have fallen in love with the idea of Jeep carriers. Why a decade later is he one of the leaders of a massive carrier program?

C-ya

 

[Haesslich]

Originally posted by twiligh81
True, but even with scoops closed a ship the size of the Midway would not accellerate as well as a fleet of smaller more conventional ships, so there is still the posability of enemy fleets bypassing Midway class ships and endangering ConFed's core systems before the Midways could catch up.

As for the jump mass thing, i belive you're refering to Thrak's speech in Fleet Action, he doesnt make it clear weither he means the ability to use some jump points, or the ability to use ANY. My interpertation was that they had over come the problems with very large ships being able to safely jump AT ALL, which would help explain why there are no 'super ships' except near the very end of the K-war, eariler in the war, very large ships could have been built... but they wouldnt have been able leave the system they were built in. The Vesuvius/Midway probally used the same technology, so they could jump.. but still couldnt use ALL jump nodes.

You know, that's why Midways are meant to be the core of a fleet - they send out the fighters and a few escort ships ahead into the next system, while they take up the rear with the rest of the fighter force, and to serve as the communications and strategic hub (they've got science teams to tell you more about your target after initial analysis, marines to board enemy ships and installations, and apparently the facilities to modify weapons to be more effective; look at the way they created the Enhanced missiles and torps).

Also, in Fleet Action, the Hakagas were 1580 meters long and estimated to be 'half a million ton bulk weight' due to the armor and equipment they had... which wouldn't have included fighters.

The 1830 meter long and 200,000 ton Midway seems svelte in comparison, doesn't it? Considering that the Vesuvius-class supercarriers are 1600 meters long and 250,000 tons. Also, note that by this time, we've made advances in the Akwende jump technology to allow us to put fighters through jump points without support from a carrier or built-in jump engines, IIRC.

In any case, im not saying that the Midway, Vesuvius, & Connie are fundamentally "bad" ships, they're not, just that in my considered, semi-knowladgeable opinion, ConFed would have been better served by a greater number of smaller more conventional ships.

They note that, in the WCP manual, that the Midways are 'easier to defend' than several smaller carriers, despite their larger size. They're also easier to maintain, and serve purposes which would otherwise also require a marine transport, one or two science ships, and maybe a munitions factory...

Which is the point of the Midway-class Megacarriers; they're meant to do more. You could consider it three standard fleet carriers (they note it carries three flight groups) as well as a extremely well defended science ship, Intel division, and Marine transport all in one easily-maintained package.

And, unlike some of the supercarrier concepts tossed out here - it's not meant to be sent out alone. It's the core of a battle group; it's the logistical center, the communications hub, the support division. It doesn't fight capships by itself - the weaponry is designed for shooting down torps or whatever fighters escape its screen, at least before a fighter element breaks off to deal with it. It's not meant to be a one-ship fleet; it doesn't have the speed for it. It's not meant to be a scoutship - it's too valuable.

What it does, and does well, is be the heart of a fleet and support the other combat elements. It's an Intel division, it's got a Science group to handle technology analysis to tell us what soft points to aim for and what sort of weaknesses a fighter might have, and it's got the technological know-how to modify existing weapons to do the specific sort of extra damage you need to kill that supership you've run across.

How else do you think we stuck that huge Bug plasma cannon on the Midway? Without Science division's expertise, we'd never have done it...

 

[$tormin]

The midway concept is a good idea if used properly, but properly using equipment seems to be the exception in WC rather than the rule. Carriers were never ment to duke it out with capships but in every wc game I have played, they do (also the escort, or lack thereof, problems among many more.)

 

[twiligh81]

Yes in THEORY, the Midway is supposed to be escorted in wartime, but as we see in Prophecy/SO, in PRACTICE things dont always work out that way, many ppl have said the situation in Prophecy was the exception, well newsflash, in wartime, the exception IS the rule, just look at all the unanticipated things that have been happening in Iraq for example.

My point is that putting everything in one basket is RISKY, yes the Midway is a fine efficent ship, in PEACETIME, wartime however is a very different story, what if this wonderfull super ship were to be destroyed or disabled? It would be a catastrophic blow to the fleet, because you wouldnt be loseing just one carrier, youd be loseing THREE fleet carriers, two troop ships, and an Intel, Science, and R&D hub, all at ONCE!

This very reason is why there are so such super ships in the real world, is because any military planer with any brains whatsoever, knows that you NEVER put all your important assets on one platform, no matter how many defences you mount around that platform, a single target is just too easy for an enemy to attack.

*takes a breath* ..ok... end of rant... sorry... just seems like noone sees my point lol man i really need a hobby outside of WC... (is there anything outside of wing commander btw?)

 

[Delance]

The Midway is capable of doing much more than it did on WCP. It was not up to 100% of its capabilities. It had only training capship missiles and a lot of green pilots. The Wolfpack squadron did help.

I think the well-developed R&D, C&C and Tactical sectors are what make it a key platform for confed big operations. In some ways, it’s a mobile starbase.

 

[Haesslich]

Originally posted by twiligh81
Yes in THEORY, the Midway is supposed to be escorted in wartime, but as we see in Prophecy/SO, in PRACTICE things dont always work out that way, many ppl have said the situation in Prophecy was the exception, well newsflash, in wartime, the exception IS the rule, just look at all the unanticipated things that have been happening in Iraq for example.

My point is that putting everything in one basket is RISKY, yes the Midway is a fine efficent ship, in PEACETIME, wartime however is a very different story, what if this wonderfull super ship were to be destroyed or disabled? It would be a catastrophic blow to the fleet, because you wouldnt be loseing just one carrier, youd be loseing THREE fleet carriers, two troop ships, and an Intel, Science, and R&D hub, all at ONCE!

This very reason is why there are so such super ships in the real world, is because any military planer with any brains whatsoever, knows that you NEVER put all your important assets on one platform, no matter how many defences you mount around that platform, a single target is just too easy for an enemy to attack.

*takes a breath* ..ok... end of rant... sorry... just seems like noone sees my point lol man i really need a hobby outside of WC... (is there anything outside of wing commander btw?)

Nobody's saying that putting all your eggs in one basket isn't risky - but the fact of the matter remains; the Midway is NOT intended to operate alone, and under most circumstances wouldn't. It was out there in a shakedown cruise, and it was patrolling SAFE territory. You know, Confederation systems.

And to be blunt, it's a lot harder target than a marine transport, science ship, etc... since those ships tend to be lightly armed, armored, and go down with one hit or so. The main thing here is that the Midway is just one target... which means the defenders don't have to keep track of five or six different ships. Normal fleet carriers still exist, though it seems that we've also got supercarriers like TCS Eisen around, because they're able to apply a lot more force to one area.. and because Midway-class ships can handle peacetime duties as well as wartime ones.

Yes, it's a risk - but that's why battle groups exist, and notice that after we took care of the Kilrah incursion, Midway went back to Earth for refitting and is likely to come back with a full battle group afterwards. In the books, we do see actual battle groups - even when things were hard-pressed in WC3, and we were almost completely out of ships to use, Victory had an escort including a destroyer and a frigate.

WC4N, the Border Worlds were putting out escort ships with their carrier.

WCP was originally a cruise in peacetime in safe systems, until the Bugs showed up. It's still a far harder target than six smaller ships... since it mounts starbase-size shields. It just so happened that we faced similar craft from the Bugs.

 

[Concordia]

Originally posted by pygmypiranha
Do you feel that the Midway carrier program was a good idea?

No

Some argue that the Midway program was an excellent idea because it allowed the combination of all the capital ships in a carrier battle group into a single platform that could take on several tasks at once (sorta the WC equivalent of Star Trek's Galaxy Class explorers). Others state that it is too much of a gamble putting all your eggs into one basket, thinking that it is too risky a choice despite the financial savings from not having to build as many ships.

It would only run on it's own in peacetime, in wartime it would form the heart of the Carrier Battlegroup.

So the question is do you support Col. Blair in his push for this program?

With all due respect, I think Blair was an idiot. He might have been a great pilot, but he is a sh*t poor ship designer. And by the way, he's a Commodore in WCP.

Originally posted by twiligh81
I've never been a fan of the "Fleet in a ship" concept, it may be cost efficient but from a strategic/tactical point of view it sucks.

I agree with certain points of it. I like the idea of a carrier which can also duke it out with capital ships. I just think the Midway does a sucky job of doing it. They focused too much on money, and too little on quality. I don't like that.

1- Mobility, a ship the size and capabilities of the Midway is SLOW (as we see in Prophecy), and it cant use many jump points (as evidenced by the Vesuvius in WC4), which means an enemy fleet of smaller faster ships can easily evade/out maneuver a super ship like the Midway. All the firepower in the universe wont do you a damn bit of good if you cant get it WHERE you need it WHEN you need it there.

It wouldn't be running at 80 KPS during transit. It would be doing about 8,000 kps. Running scoops closed you can get there a lot faster. Of course for combat, scoops are needed to enable the ship to prevent shelton-sliding. Of course it would take practically forever to get to that speed, which could be a problem. It would also be moving at 80 KPS in combat. I agree with you in that context, it's combat speed sucks. It can however, use any jump-point. It is not bound by the problems the Vesuvius faced.

2- Redundency (or rather the lack thereof), as Zero so elloquently put it "This ship (the Midway) gets hulled, what then? They (ConFed) put all their eggs in one (no so ) little basket with no backup..." Many people point out that the Midway is SUPPOSED to have escorts and other support ships in wartime, but as we see in Prophecy things dont always work out that way.

Yeah, but nobody pays attention in peacetime.

The Concordia and Vesuvius also seemed to follow the "Fleet in a ship" concept, if to a lesser extreme, but things didnt exactly work out well for them did they?

The Concordia ran with two escorts. The Lexington (Concordia-Class) was supposed to have escorts (in WC4 Novel it did), but didn't in the game. The Bengal you're thinking about probably, and the Vesuvius ran without escorts.

Originally posted by StarLight

Considering it was built in peace time and there were no definite wars on the future horizon, it was a good idea, especially with costs. It also has the ability, although somewhat limited, to be used in main offensive strikes against fleet opponents.

What offensive ability? It has no phase-shield penetrating weapons except capship missiles (those are damn good actually), but they're slow, unmaneuverable, and easy to shoot down.

Capship to Capship, it would get it's ass kicked because it simply can't harm the ships. Unless it managed to get a CSM shot in... other than that. Fughetaboutit.

Did they make anymore Midway class carriers?

They were supposed to make 10. In either case, the Mistral Sea came online by the time of Secret Ops.

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
Well, to be fair, the situation in Prophecy was fairly unique -- she was on her shakedown cruise without a full crew or fighter complement yet assigned. During a war, as the ICIS manual points out, the Midway-class ships will act as fleet carriers rather than 'mobile bases'.

Good plan, the Midway has crappy armor. Who cares if you have the most powerful shields in the galaxy if you can go right through them? That's the McAuliffe Fallacy. Powerful shields, but they were bypassed as if they were not there.

Yup. Ten were under construction. We see the second, the TCS Mistral Sea, mentioned in one of the Secret Ops trailers.

Thanks man, you're a life-saver. I thought it was either 10, 11, or 12.

The indication is that the jump mass issue is no longer a problem -- the Kilrathi had eliminated the issue with their Hakaga class, and a similar innovation has probably reached new Confed ships by 2681.

The Behemoth would have had to have that technology in WC3. It would have needed it to wedge it's fat-ass through a jump-point. Otherwise it would have spent more energy to jump than to blow-up a planet.

Depends -- like most ships in the war eventually war, the Concordia was destroyed... but in the seven years she served she was one of the most decorated ships in the fleet. According to Tolwyn at the beginning of Fleet Action (so, before the Battle of Terra) Concordia had destroyed eight carriers, twenty other capital ships and had served in nine major fleet actions. Confed certainly got their moneys worth (G)

Except the Concordia did not run on it's own. She had two escorts. At the start of WC2 it was the TCS-Beowulf and the TCS-Hector (the Beowulf was destroyed), she was replaced with the TCS-William Tell. William Tell was destroyed later during a high-speed jump (only if you're on the losing track). I tell you, Admiral Tolwyn did more jumping than Dr. J. did in the NBA. Doctor J... meat Admiral T.

Further, in the case of Vesuvius, it should be pointed out that she could not have been destroyed without the help of *another* Vesuvius class ship...

True! Finally, someone got this right.

She only needed 40 fighters from the Intrepid, quite a couple from the St. Helens (I'm not certain if the St. Helens was fully stocked), three frigates (in the WC Novel), the TCS-Intrepid, (was the Tango involved?), the TCS-St. Helens herself to batter down the Vesuvius and her captain to give Blair all the weak-spots on the Vesuvius. It also took a whole bunch of time to batter down all 14 of her anti-matter guns, or at least a large bunch of them and her 40 point-defense guns (at least a lot of them). It also either needed a torpedo attack or a flash-pack to the flight-deck to finally do her in.

And in this action, the Intrepid nearly got the sh*t beat out of her (nearly destroyed), the Vesuvius was heavily damaged and forced into retreat. Out of those Frigates, at least one was destroyed (with a single hit might I add). In the novel she was pulverized by innumerable asteroids as well.

This ship took a serious beating and kept on going. It was worse than the Hakaga!!! At least the Torpedoes actually damaged the Hakaga. On the Vesuvius, the torpedoes barely make a dent in the shielding (how the hell did it's shields repel the torpedo?).

Originally posted by twiligh81
True, but even with scoops closed a ship the size of the Midway would not accellerate as well as a fleet of smaller more conventional ships, so there is still the posability of enemy fleets bypassing Midway class ships and endangering ConFed's core systems before the Midways could catch up.

In real life you'd accelerate better without drag as well, but in WC, the acceleration ratings are the same.

Still you're right, and the Midway's engines are puny anyway.

She could be easily outran. Enemies could blow right past her.

As for the jump mass thing, i belive you're refering to Thrak's speech in Fleet Action, he doesnt make it clear weither he means the ability to use some jump points, or the ability to use ANY. My interpertation was that they had over come the problems with very large ships being able to safely jump AT ALL, which would help explain why there are no 'super ships' except near the very end of the K-war, eariler in the war, very large ships could have been built... but they wouldnt have been able leave the system they were built in. The Vesuvius/Midway probally used the same technology, so they could jump.. but still couldnt use ALL jump nodes.

I assume he meant that large ships couldn't jump at all. The Hakaga simply enabled large ships to jump PERIOD. Of course LOAF will debate with me this until the end of time... actually, I just forgot what his reason was, but If I recall Correctly, it made sense.

-Concordia

 

[Concordia]

Originally posted by twiligh81
Well i concede the point about the Connie, she did give valuable service to ConFed, as for the Vesuvius we dont KNOW that ONLY another Vesuvius class could have beaten her, simply that a single escort carrier (the Intrepid) wasnt able to

It was a team effort.
-Three frigates
-A whole bunch of torpedoes from the frigates
-A whole bunch of asteroids
-The BWS-Intrepid's torpedoes
-Intrepid's fighters (engaged the Vesuvius's fighters, and took some shots at Vesuvius).
-TCS-St. Helens: Pounded away at the Vesuvius
-Captain William Eisen: Gave away vital secrets about the Vesuvius to Blair.
-Intrepid's fighters: Picked off the AMG turrets.
-Col. Blair: Delivered a flash-pack or a bunch of torpedoes into the flight bay and cooked the ship from the inside out.

It is certinly at least possable that a conventional CVBG could have defeated her, but the UBW didnt have one available so we'll never know.

Unlikely, 3-frigates, a destroyer/carrier hybrid, 40 fighters of which either 6 or 12 were Dragon Superfighters, a whole bunch of asteroids, and a nearly completed, hijacked Confed Supercarrier (which has all the firepower of the Vesuvius and slightly less armor because it wasn't quite ready) should *MORE* than equal the firepower of a Carrier Battle-Group.

In any case, im not saying that the Midway, Vesuvius, & Connie are fundamentally "bad" ships, they're not, just that in my considered, semi-knowladgeable opinion, ConFed would have been better served by a greater number of smaller more conventional ships.

I would have liked 5-10 Supercarriers like the Vesuvius, and about 20-40 smaller carriers, and about 50 Waterloo-type Cruiser-Carriers.

But maybe I'm being a little grandiose...

 

[Haesslich]

Originally posted by Concordia

This ship took a serious beating and kept on going. It was worse than the Hakaga!!! At least the Torpedoes actually damaged the Hakaga. On the Vesuvius, the torpedoes barely make a dent in the shielding (how the hell did it's shields repel the torpedo?).

Easy - it had the newest generation shields. Remember how the Hakagas in Fleet Action were rated to have shields that could stop almost any torpedo in Confed inventory including the 'Mark IV and V antimatter torpedoes'. Thrakath states, for the record, that the shield generators can repulse almost anything Confed throws at them.

Even if this claim seems to have been proven false (we know Broadswords carry Mark IV torpedoes, and the Broadsword strike in Sirius system resulted in damage to two of the Hakagas, though neither of them were sunk even after four direct hits - one or two more than would've been required to kill a 'standard' carrier), we do know that newer shields usually mean it takes time to develop countermeasures to bypass them, or at least to upgrade your torp capability.

 

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by twiligh81
Yes in THEORY, the Midway is supposed to be escorted in wartime, but as we see in Prophecy/SO, in PRACTICE things dont always work out that way, many ppl have said the situation in Prophecy was the exception, well newsflash, in wartime, the exception IS the rule, just look at all the unanticipated things that have been happening in Iraq for example.

My point is that putting everything in one basket is RISKY, yes the Midway is a fine efficent ship, in PEACETIME, wartime however is a very different story, what if this wonderfull super ship were to be destroyed or disabled? It would be a catastrophic blow to the fleet, because you wouldnt be loseing just one carrier, youd be loseing THREE fleet carriers, two troop ships, and an Intel, Science, and R&D hub, all at ONCE!

The point of the Midway class was that in the event that the carrier DID end up unescorted, it would not be a relative sitting duck in the way that a Vesuvius class would be. It is self-contained enough to operate on its own when there is no other choice. Compare this to the Victory, which needed its two destroyers and a frigate to protect it all the time or it was in deep trouble. If at all possible, a Midway class carrier would have a Plunkett and a pair of Murphys with it at least, but sometimes it's not possible, as in WCP.

 

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by Haesslich
Easy - it had the newest generation shields. Remember how the Hakagas in Fleet Action were rated to have shields that could stop almost any torpedo in Confed inventory including the 'Mark IV and V antimatter torpedoes'. Thrakath states, for the record, that the shield generators can repulse almost anything Confed throws at them.

Even if this claim seems to have been proven false (we know Broadswords carry Mark IV torpedoes, and the Broadsword strike in Sirius system resulted in damage to two of the Hakagas, though neither of them were sunk even after four direct hits - one or two more than would've been required to kill a 'standard' carrier), we do know that newer shields usually mean it takes time to develop countermeasures to bypass them, or at least to upgrade your torp capability.

Indeed. We have seen that weapons and shields go in cycles--one side invents shields that can block the other side's torpedoes, and then the other side develops new torpedoes that can penetrate the new shields, which provides incentive to create even BETTER shields, etc.

The following is an oversimplification, but it helps in visualizing what is going on:

The simplest way to think of how torpedoes penetrate shields is in terms of computers. Capships, being larger and more expensive, than fighters, can carry more powerful computers, which allows them to modulate their shields more rapidly and with more complex patterns. If the modulation rate is too fast or the pattern too complex, then the fighter-mounted computers that are used to lock the torpedoes can not keep up, and thus the torpedoes cannot match the enemy shield patterns until advances in computer technology allow for more powerful computers aboard fighters. Remember that torpedoes penetrate shields by BYPASSING them, not by punching through with brute force.

 

[twiligh81]

Many ppl point out the claim in the Prophecy manual, that (from a pilot standpoint at least) the Midway is easier to defend, then the half a dozen ships it replaces would be, and thats true, but also from a pilot standpoint, a single large target is also easier to ATTACK as well, makeing this a moot point. If you don't belive me, try it yourself, get the prophecy mission builder, make a mission where you have to attack the midway, then make a mission attacking a fleet of even just a few, more conventional warships, and see for yourself which one is easier to destroy...

Granted Prophecy isnt exactly the most realistic of simulations but my point is still valid.


Orig by Concordia:
"With all due respect, I think Blair was an idiot. He might have been a great pilot, but he is a sh*t poor ship designer."

Amen my friend *high 5s* Hallaugha praise the lord! lol


Orig by Concordia:
"It can however, use any jump-point. It is not bound by the problems the Vesuvius faced."

Hmm... i dont recall any such thing being said in Prophecy or SO, or the manuals...


Orig by Concordia:
"The Concordia ran with two escorts. The Lexington (Concordia-Class) was supposed to have escorts (in WC4 Novel it did), but didn't in the game. The Bengal you're thinking about probably, and the Vesuvius ran without escorts."

The fact that they had a *few* escorts is what i meant by following the "fleet in a ship" concept 'to a lesser extreme'. A conventional fleet carrier has MUCH more then just one or 2 destroyers around, take the Victory group for example, at least 1 heavy cruiser and 2 destroyers as escort at all times. And remember the Victory was just a light carrier on secondline dutys, a front line fleet carrier would likely have AT LEAST double that escort.

In R/L for example, a carrier has at least 1 cruiser on a short leash, often 2, half a dozen destroyers, and another half dozen frigates as a picket, plus usually a submarine attached to the group.


Orig by Concordia:
"I tell you, Admiral Tolwyn did more jumping than Dr. J. did in the NBA. Doctor J... meat Admiral T. "

ROTFL oh thats funny...


Orig by Concordia:
"Unlikely, 3-frigates, a destroyer/carrier hybrid, 40 fighters of which either 6 or 12 were Dragon Superfighters, a whole bunch of asteroids, and a nearly completed, hijacked Confed Supercarrier (which has all the firepower of the Vesuvius and slightly less armor because it wasn't quite ready) should *MORE* than equal the firepower of a Carrier Battle-Group."

Well when i made my arguemnt on the issue i was refering to how the battle was depicted in the game, not the novel.

Remember tho a wartime CVBG consists of at least 1 fleet carrier, often 2-3, each fleet carrier with a complment of 80-100 fighters (depending on the exact class), plus at least 1 heavy cruiser per carrier, PLUS escorting destroyers & frigates, of which you can figure at least 2 escorts, probally more like 4, per carrier.

So even a minimal CVBG would be 1 fleet carrier, 1 heavy cruiser, and a a few destroyers, with a total of something like 90-110 fighters and bombers, a significantly superior force over all compaired to the rag tag UBW force that actually attacked the Vesuvius.


Orig by Ijuin:
"The point of the Midway class was that in the event that the carrier DID end up unescorted, it would not be a relative sitting duck in the way that a Vesuvius class would be."

Ummm... i think you have that backwards my friend, from the design of the Vesuvius (namely overpowered engines & maneuvering systems, thick armor, and immence heavy gun armament), it is appearent that the Vesuvius was intended to be the next generation strike carrier (ie, designed to operate alone or minimaly escorted, along and behind enemy lines). The Midway on the other hand was NEVER intended to operate alone during wartime, much less behind enemy lines. The Vesuvius is ANYTHING but a 'sitting duck', escorted or not. The Midway on the other hand is much more vulnerable in a fleet battle with out the protection of its close escorts


In any case, we're talking about umpteen billion credit, state of the art, military vessels, weither a single Midway or Vesuvius, or a more conventional battle group, the differences in performance between them that we're discussing, are not drastic, but instead matters of degree.

The Midway for example, is slightly more cost efficent, and has slightly better support capabilites, the conventional CVBG it replaces, has slightly better defensive capabilites, and has slightly better strategic mobility.

The question is, 'Are these trade offs worth it?' personally i say no... but thats just my opinion America, i may be wrong. lol

 

[Jonas Davenger]

Just thought I should add my own humble opinion

I don't see any right or wrong in this topic, do you guys? Now down to business, I agree that the Midway is much easier to defend and I also agree that it counter - balances to the effect of the Midway is much easier to attack. I actually had tried building a mission where you just have to attack the midway, I decided to just go with the devastator (By the way, its just with that... WYSIWYG mission builder? Or in other words, the one where you place nav points on the 'map' and add coloured dots in), when they say the Midway is easy to attack (in other words a few people here), they weren't kidding. It was easy to attack, and it was partly because of the weak armour the Midway has. I'm willing to bet that its only just stronger than a Ranger's? (Well not that low.. but you know what I mean?)

Though, I also agree with everything else everybody else has said, where the Midway is self - sufficient and efficient. Not to mention a valuable asset in a fleet.

By the way, a question. Isn't the Vesuvious faster than the Midway? Yet the Midway is considerably lighter? Is it because of the engines? Or is it just the game system...