Maybe it's just me...

[Adthrock]

but, I've been trying to find more information about Privateer Online/Wing Commander Online, and I can't seem to connect to the site www.privateeronline.com or net.

On a personal note: To me, the only thing Privateer lacked in being the perfect game was multiplayer compatability.

 

[ChrisReid]

That's because there's no site there yet, it's not been officially announced. All the solid POL references we've collected are at in the POL section.

 

[Quarto]

On a personal note: To me, the only thing Privateer lacked in being the perfect game was multiplayer compatability.

Actually, as much as I like Priv, it lacked a lot more than that.
One thing that I always wondered about was why they didn't put more work into the system maps? I mean, they could have made things a lot more interesting if there were actually stars in each system, and the planets moved about the stars. Wouldn't have been difficult, either. Just a matter of using WC2's nav display system, which had everything that was needed.

 

[Earthworm]

Who the hell's LocoMan?

Anyhow, Priv could use a better story, more ships you can buy, ability to hire transports and wingman like in P2, non-plot missions that still have cutscenes also like in P2, better missions, I would also like something like Leech guns/missiles so you could disable a fighter and either sell it or keep it for yourself.

 

[steampunk]

LocoMan was a regular here. I haven't seen him in a while. If memory serves me correctly, one day LocoMan decides to do this post saying POL was official annouced at a press release or something. Something like that. It was pretty funny though. I remember that much. Asuming of course I'm remembering correctly ... hmm

------------------
Mess with the best, die like the rest.

 

[Death's Head]

If I recall correctly, it was kinda silly and I haven't seen anything of him since.

It would have been really nice if the systems were more like star sytems but we have and will continue to muddle through.

Anyone know what's different between the P2 deluxe edition and the original release?

------------------
A wingmen is essential; they give the enemy something else to shoot at.

 

[Quarto]

With Deluxe, you get a P2 poster (identical to the box cover), and a little sew-on patch representing one of the pirate clans (I don't know about the others, but the one I got was so bad that I wouldna be caught dead wearing it

).
Other than that, the major difference is that Deluxe is for Win9x, while the original was for DOS.

 

[Adthrock]

Sorry... I got a little excited there... what I meant was P2.

I think the other things that I missed in P2 from Privateer was the ability to fly from one jump point to another... like there was actually space between the two. Also I missed being able to cary cargo yourself. Yeah the ships were nice, but what if say in P2 you wanted to be a pirate... No way you were going to hold enough cargo in your ship to pay for the danger in attacking a large cargo ship..
Now, something like Ion cannons like in the Starwars games to disable the cargo ship, that would be nice for the next game.

Oh yeah... I just tried to reinstall P2 on my new machine and I kept getting errors... it's not the deluxe edition. Any clues?

[This message has been edited by Adthrock (edited March 28, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

Oh, you mean P2? Then I really have to disagree.

The booth system is a plague upon mankind, the space combat is too arcade. Where did all the tactics go? All you have to do here is hold down the mouse button and rotate to keep enemy in reticle... and the cockpits (or rather, lack thereof) make the game seem even more arcade. Sure, the graphics are otherwise great, but graphics ain't everything. If it wasn't for the storyline, I would have unistalled P2 after about fifteen minutes.
To put it simply, P2 in essence consisted of a lot of great ideas which generally were poorly executed. It had huge potential, but...

 

[steampunk]

Adthrock: Be more specific. You'd have better luck getting a solution if you went to the Tech Forum. Anyways, if you're running the DOS version of P2 through windows, make sure "Prevent Programs from detecting DOS yadda yadda" is selected.

------------------
Mess with the best, die like the rest.

[This message has been edited by steampunk (edited March 29, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

Then I really have to disagree.

The booth system is a plague upon mankind, the space combat is too arcade.

What? What? The booth system is great. You can go in there and look up practicly anything you want. The whole intercace is better than anything I've seen in other space sims. Including all WC games. And I wouldn't exactly call the gameplay feeling like an arcade. The AI was prety bad, but a game doesen't have to be super hard to be enjoyable. And at some ocasions P2 was inded very hard. Like when I had to go to Kappa Labs, by jumping through 20 or so navpoints.

Where did all the tactics go? All you have to do here is hold down the mouse button and rotate to keep enemy in reticle...[/QUOTE]
You play it with a mouse?

There are no tactics, true. But there weren't realy any tactics in Priv either.

and the cockpits (or rather, lack thereof) make the game seem even more arcade.

So FS, WC4-SO all seem like arcade to you?

I hated the cockpits in Priv, and WC1 and WC2. Fortunetly I got KS, so I don't have to have them in WC1/WC2. The cockpits look cool, but suck monkey ass when it comes to gameplay. The HUD is much better IMO.

Sure, the graphics are otherwise great, but graphics ain't everything. If it wasn't for the storyline, I would have unistalled P2 after about fifteen minutes.
To put it simply, P2 in essence consisted of a lot of great ideas which generally were poorly executed. It had huge potential, but...

But P2 was better than Priv in almost every way.... The gameplay was much more enjoyable, and felt less like an *arcade* than Priv. I remember on one mission I had to fight at least 15-20 Deamons in Priv, all by myself. How's that for an arcade?

 

[Death's Head]

Saying it's better doen't mean crap. It may seem better to you, while Quarto thinks it sucks earthworms out of the ground.

The challenge is to play with cockpits on. Only in relatively recent times have we even had a HUD for real pilots to look at, and as far as I know, most fighters don't allow for the pilot to look through an invisible cockpit. Only the most recent developments allow for pilots to see anything "through the cockpit" actually they see through cameras mounted on the outside of the fighter and see the images through the Helmet visor.

As I recall the ships in SO did have a cockpit, you can even see the struts or turn them off. Again, in that and all WCs, for that matter you are looking through the helmet. Now I don't know if you've ever actually put a helmet like the pilots of the Vietnam war used, but those things don't let you see a whole lot. And just what is there that's so important to see? Everything is HUD except the flight controls, which aren't too exciting to watch, unless you like seeing someone's hand jerking a stick back and forth...uh, ok...different strokes for different folks I guess.

But P2 was better than Priv in almost every way. The gameplay was much more enjoyable, and felt less like an *arcade* than Priv. I remember on one mission I had to fight at least 15-20 Deamons in Priv, all by myself. How's that for an arcade?

When did Quarto compare P2 to P? I fail to see it in this case. Again, I wonder where your opinion starts and stops. Arcade is a relative term. Arcade to me, is playing around with games in a room of teenagers that have nothing better to do than spill quarters into a machine for hours. Most of the Arcade-type games are shoot 'em ups with hardly any story to think about. The only thing that makes them popular is being able to down as many bad guys as possible with little or no effect on an ongoing story. The "arcade" Quarto seems to refer to is the battle without plot effect routine that does nothing more than give you something to scratch your finger at.

I think since Adtrock said the P2 wasn't the deluxe variety, he was saying it was a DOS/Windoze error relating to not being able to run properly because of not making a shortcut or not having certain drivers in place b/c of DOS. The question is, what specifically is the error? If we know the error, we can get you running, but again, it is better to pop this issue in TECH.

[This message has been edited by Death's Head (edited March 29, 2000).]

 

[ChrisReid]

SO had struts.. but that was the extent of the cockpit.

 

[Earthworm]

Saying it's better doen't mean crap. It may seem better to you, while Quarto thinks it sucks earthworms out of the ground.

Sure it does mean something. I said it's better IMO, and I gave the reasons why I think that.

The challenge is to play with cockpits on.

No it's not, it's anoying as hell, but it doesen't realy bring any more challenge. And even today cocpits have more visibility.

Only in relatively recent times have we even had a HUD for real pilots to look at, and as far as I know, most fighters don't allow for the pilot to look through an invisible cockpit.

Right, only recently has that been posible.... And WC is set, hm, what was that again? About 654 years in the future?

Now I don't know if you've ever actually put a helmet like the pilots of the Vietnam war used, but those things don't let you see a whole lot.

Right. And WC helmets are very simlar to those from Vietnam because.....

And just what is there that's so important to see? Everything is HUD except the flight controls, which aren't too exciting to watch, unless you like seeing someone's hand jerking a stick back and forth...uh, ok...different strokes for different folks I guess.

Um, OK, I think that all those fighters that are shoting at you are so important to see. I found it realy anoying when I bought a new ship and all the controls were in different places. A HUD allows for much more visibility, and since it's a computer interface it would probably be the same on most fighters.

But P2 was better than Priv in almost every way. The gameplay was much more enjoyable, and felt less like an *arcade* than Priv. I remember on one mission I had to fight at least 15-20 Deamons in Priv, all by myself. How's that for an arcade?

When did Quarto compare P2 to P? I fail to see it in this case.

When in his first post in this thread he started talking about improving Priv, and only saying one or two things, and when Adthrock corrected his mistake and said he meant P2, Quarto jumped in and started saying how P2 felt like an arcade an all that.

Again, I wonder where your opinion starts and stops. Arcade is a relative term. Arcade to me, is playing around with games in a room of teenagers that have nothing better to do than spill quarters into a machine for hours. Most of the Arcade-type games are shoot 'em ups with hardly any story to think about. The only thing that makes them popular is being able to down as many bad guys as possible with little or no effect on an ongoing story. The "arcade" Quarto seems to refer to is the battle without plot effect routine that does nothing more than give you something to scratch your finger at.

But he did just say that P2 had a good plot...

And to a lot of people, when talking about PC games, arcade means something like Rebel Asualt, or Freelancer games and such. Where your ship is controled by the computer and all you have to do is click on a target, and it dies after a few shots.


[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited March 29, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

Saying it's better doen't mean crap. It may seem better to you, while Quarto thinks it sucks earthworms out of the ground.

I don't think so... but my comment seems to have brought the Earthworm out of the woodwork

.

Before you reply, 'Worm, note that I've used ""s for the smaller quotes. It saves space

.

"What? What? The booth system is great. You can go in there and look up practicly anything you want." - No, it's evil. You waste half of your time watching the stupid graphics sliding across the screen - and that's after you switched the animated transitions off. I hate having to wait two-three seconds every time I want to look at a mission, wingman, whatever. Those two-three seconds quickly add up.

"The whole intercace is better than anything I've seen in other space sims. Including all WC games." - Gee... that's a big achievement... actually, it's not better. Just about every space sim known to mankind (except for Armada) has a better interface. Priv 1 has a better interface - and P2 is supposed to be a sequel.

And I wouldn't exactly call the gameplay feeling like an arcade. The AI was prety bad, but a game doesen't have to be super hard to be enjoyable. And at some ocasions P2 was inded very hard. Like when I had to go to Kappa Labs, by jumping through 20 or so navpoints.

Did I mention the AI? Nope. The AI sucks, granted, but the AI doesn't need to be brilliant to make a good game. Just look at WC 1. And I don't think a game needs to be super hard to be enjoyable... far from it. But jumping through 20 or so navpoints isn't very hard (I did it easily, with no problems going either direction). It's just plain boring.

"You play it with a mouse?" - You don't?

Then I pity thee.

"There are no tactics, true. But there weren't realy any tactics in Priv either." - The lack of tactics in one game is no excuse for a similar lack in its sequel.

"So FS, WC4-SO all seem like arcade to you?" - Read my post. I didn't say that the lack of cockpits MAKES a game arcade, just that it makes it MORE arcade. All of the games you mentioned had this little thing called tactics, and WCP-SO had cockpits, as limited as they were. But yes, I hated the lack of cockpits in FS and WC4. In the case of WC4, hated it with a passion, because it was the game's only real flaw.

I hated the cockpits in Priv, and WC1 and WC2. Fortunetly I got KS, so I don't have to have them in WC1/WC2. The cockpits look cool, but suck monkey ass when it comes to gameplay. The HUD is much better IMO.

Can I help it if you just want to go and press the fire button so that a few pixels on the screen hit a different bunch of pixels? I like as much immersion as possible in games, and the cockpits did just that. Sure, they limited your visibility, but that's realism for you. And at least you knew what ship you were flying. Hell, P2 doesn't even show that. Even your damage display is the same for every ship.

But P2 was better than Priv in almost every way.... The gameplay was much more enjoyable, and felt less like an *arcade* than Priv. I remember on one mission I had to fight at least 15-20 Deamons in Priv, all by myself. How's that for an arcade?

Several points to address here. First of all, while I never compared those two, I feel that Priv had MUCH better gameplay, and it definitely felt LESS arcade. I agree completely about the stupidity of having to take out 15-20 Demons... but isn't that about as many ships as you face on your average P2 flight? I'm amazed at the sheer numbers of ships in the Tri-System... where on earth do they get all the resources from?

Death's Head says:"The "arcade" Quarto seems to refer to is the battle without plot effect routine that does nothing more than give you something to scratch your finger at." - Not exactly. There is a plot in P2. What I am referring to is that the battles are generally limited to pressing the fire button and moving the cursor. In that aspect, P2 has more in common with Space Invaders than with WC games.

And while HUDs are useful... yes, I like seeing the hand jerking around in the cockpit. It brings the game just the slightest bit closer to reality (don't get me wrong; I'm not one of those weirdos who want to live in the computer; but the whole point of computer games, the way I see it, is total immersion).

 

[Death's Head]

Sure it does. I said it's better IMO, and I gave the reasons why I think that.

You didn't say imo then, you said it about arcade talk.

No it's not. Even today cocpits are more visible.

Huh? What does making it harder to fly the classic cockpit mode have to do with...whatever you are trying to say? You're saying flying with cockpits on isn't a challenge?, cause you seem to talk like it is.

[QOUTE]Um, OK, I think that all those fighters that are shoting at you are so important to see.[/QUOTE]But that's not what I meant, what's so important in the cockpit that you have to see? You mean you can't see the fighters through the cockpit transparisteel?

 

[Earthworm]

"What? What? The booth system is great. You can go in there and look up practicly anything you want." - No, it's evil. You waste half of your time watching the stupid graphics sliding across the screen - and that's after you switched the animated transitions off. I hate having to wait two-three seconds every time I want to look at a mission, wingman, whatever. Those two-three seconds quickly add up.

Not unless you go to the booth every two or three seconds.

They don't waste any of my time.

"The whole intercace is better than anything I've seen in other space sims. Including all WC games." - Gee... that's a big achievement... actually, it's not better. Just about every space sim known to mankind (except for Armada) has a better interface. Priv 1 has a better interface - and P2 is supposed to be a sequel.

P2 is not supposed to be a sequel..... And in what way is Priv's interface better?

Did I mention the AI? Nope. The AI sucks, granted, but the AI doesn't need to be brilliant to make a good game. Just look at WC 1. And I don't think a game needs to be super hard to be enjoyable... far from it. But jumping through 20 or so navpoints isn't very hard (I did it easily, with no problems going either direction). It's just plain boring.

It isn't boring when you have to fight off 5-8 fighters on 12 of them while flying in the Straith with the weakest guns available...

*"You play it with a mouse?" - You don't?

Then I pity thee.*

No, my MS Sidewinder PP is good enough for me.

It has a lot of programable buttons, and it has a great acuracy.

"There are no tactics, true. But there weren't realy any tactics in Priv either." - The lack of tactics in one game is no excuse for a similar lack in its sequel.

But it's not a sequel. And if you're so pissed because P2 doesen't have tactics why aren't you complaining at P1's lack of tactics? Why aren't you complainig about FS lack of tactics? Why aren't you complaining about any other space sims?

Read my post. I didn't say that the lack of cockpits MAKES a game arcade, just that it makes it MORE arcade.

In what way? By improving your visibilty and giving us something that is already in use today?

All of the games you mentioned had this little thing called tactics, and WCP-SO had cockpits, as limited as they were. But yes, I hated the lack of cockpits in FS and WC4. In the case of WC4, hated it with a passion, because it was the game's only real flaw.

Well, WC4 did have more flaws than that. And none of the games I mentioned required any tactics. Not any more than P2 did at least.

And those things in Prophecy/SO aren't realy cockpits. It's just something that holds your windshield together.

Can I help it if you just want to go and press the fire button so that a few pixels on the screen hit a different bunch of pixels?

Um, WTF?

I like as much immersion as possible in games, and the cockpits did just that. Sure, they limited your visibility, but that's realism for you. And at least you knew what ship you were flying.

So the fact that those fighters didn't have HUD's even though today fighters have those is realistic? The fact that P2 is over 700 years in the future doesen't mean anything to you?

Hell, P2 doesn't even show that. Even your damage display is the same for every ship.

And what's wrong with that?

I usualy know what ship I'm flying, I don't need a new cockpit to show me that.

Several points to address here. First of all, while I never compared those two, I feel that Priv had MUCH better gameplay, and it definitely felt LESS arcade. I agree completely about the stupidity of having to take out 15-20 Demons... but isn't that about as many ships as you face on your average P2 flight?

No. I usualy face about 4-8 fighters in P2. I never encountered more that on one navpoint. And Priv's gameplay was worse mainly because of the poor mission design.

Not exactly. There is a plot in P2. What I am referring to is that the battles are generally limited to pressing the fire button and moving the cursor. In that aspect, P2 has more in common with Space Invaders than with WC games.

Now that's BS. Other than the fact that ships are easier to kill, because of the AI, the battles are similar to that of the main WC games.

And while HUDs are useful... yes, I like seeing the hand jerking around in the cockpit. It brings the game just the slightest bit closer to reality (don't get me wrong; I'm not one of those weirdos who want to live in the computer; but the whole point of computer games, the way I see it, is total immersion).

But if you were flying for real wouldn't you hand be much larger? That means there's a midget flying your fighter! You're just siting behind him and watching the fireworks. Now, seriously. HUD's are going to be used more and more in the next few years, why would you be looking at your little hand moving the flight yoke when you can have everything right in front of your eyes?

 

[Earthworm]

No it's not. Even today cockpits are more visible.

Huh? What does making it harder to fly the classic cockpit mode have to do with...whatever you are trying to say? You're saying flying with cockpits on isn't a challenge?, cause you seem to talk like it is.

What the hell are you trying to say? You're said the chalenge is to play with cockpit on, I said it isn't. I also said that why should there be real cockpits if today HUD's exist, and in the next few years they will become more common. You may also notice that I did edit that coment before you replied.

I find it very anoying when the instruments I'm used to are sudenly on a different part of the cockpit. I also find it anoying when I'm fighting buy I can't see the ship that's shoting at me because the cockpit hides that ship.

But that's not what I meant, what's so important in the cockpit that you have to see? You mean you can't see the fighters through the cockpit transparisteel?

Transparisteel? I can't see fighters through those little bitmap pictures that make up your cockpit because the enemy fighters are to lower than I am.



[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited March 29, 2000).]

 

[Death's Head]

"because the enemy fighters are to lower than I am."WTF?
Correct me if I have strayed here, but don't the viewports of the cockpits come in transparisteel? I think they provide enough viewing area, altough some people need all the help they can get.
Why should there be cockpits? Because in the early 90s the cockpits were viewable, you could even see the tail hole in the Dralthi seat. I want the option to see the cocpit if I want so I can look at the nice artwork and get a better feeling for being inside a ship. It's not a technology challenge to make a HUD work, especially hundreds of years from now as you insistently pointed out, it's a combat challenge.

 

[Quarto]

"They don't waste any of my time." - So... if you don't use them, how can you say they're good?

I wouldn't mind the booth system if the "switch off animations" option actually did switch off animations. Even then though, I would prefer more interaction with humans... even if they're fake humans, consisting purely of pixels

.

"And in what way is Priv's interface better?" - For one thing, it doesn't use the stupid "get it all in one place" idea. I mean, sure, that's what things are coming to with the internet and all that, but I think that most humans want to interact more with other humans, rather than less.

"It isn't boring when you have to fight off 5-8 fighters on 12 of them while flying in the Straith with the weakest guns available..." - It's even more boring then, because you waste so much time on each individual fighter.

"P2 is not supposed to be a sequel... it's not a sequel." - Wow. No offence, but that is THE absolutely dumbest thing I've heard all day... all year, even. If it wasn't a sequel, then it would have been called The Darkening (as was originally the case) instead of Privateer 2. The "2", btw, means "Sequel".

And if you're so pissed because P2 doesen't have tactics why aren't you complaining at P1's lack of tactics? Why aren't you complainig about FS lack of tactics? Why aren't you complaining about any other space sims?

First of all, I'm not pissed about anything. I'm merely stating my disappointment with P2.
Secondly, P1 has some tactics. Why don't you go and take out a Dralthi using the Tarsus in its original config (1 laser cannon)... you can even use afterburners.

Good luck. Come back here next week, when you're willing to admit that it's not just a matter of moving the cursor - you actually have to think (ergo, use tactics). Otherwise, even the measly Dralthi will have your head on a platter.
Thirdly, FS has lots and lots of tactics. In that aspect, it's just as good as WC (no numbers, because I mean the original WC which was the best in that particular aspect).
And as for the rest of the space sims out there... I really don't care. FS and the WC series (+Priv series) are the only ones I play on a regular basis. Even in SW, I only played X-Wing and then TIE-Fighter. Haven't even seen the others... there are too many different types of games out there to only focus on space sims.

"In what way? By improving your visibilty and giving us something that is already in use today?" - By really bringing home the fact that in the end, it's just a game; that in the end, all we're facing are pixels.

"And those things in Prophecy/SO aren't realy cockpits. It's just something that holds your windshield together." - All right... let me rephrase that. It's not just cockpits I'm after - it's the inside of the spacecraft. Something to tell me that I'm actually inside a spaceship. I really don't give a damn if HUDs are real. They simply don't add to the game's atmosphere.

"Um, WTF?" - Nothing to worry about.

It was just a pointless remark on my side, in an attempt to bring home the fact that without the atmosphere that cockpits and other such "irritating" details add, we're left with a shoot-em-up.

"And what's wrong with that?" Everything. It reminds me of the days when the representation of different kinds of units in strategical games was limited to displaying a tiny little stick figure (and all the figures looked the same). Details, details, details. That's what I want.

"And Priv's gameplay was worse mainly because of the poor mission design." - Poor mission design? Whatever do you mean? And while we're at it, does P2 have good mission design?

"Now that's BS. Other than the fact that ships are easier to kill, because of the AI, the battles are similar to that of the main WC games." - Now THAT's BS. When was the last time you even thought of doing a Shelton Slide in P2?

But if you were flying for real wouldn't you hand be much larger? That means there's a midget flying your fighter! You're just siting behind him and watching the fireworks.

I won't dignify that with an answer...

Now, seriously. HUD's are going to be used more and more in the next few years, why would you be looking at your little hand moving the flight yoke when you can have everything right in front of your eyes?

Well... hang on. Aren't you the one who always insists that the problem with FS was the lack of cutscenes? How would you like it if in WC, all the cutscenes would be shown through your character's eyes? After all, why would you be looking at your little face moving about when you can have everything right in front of your eyes? That's what you want, isn't it?