Kilrathi Shipbuilding Debate (cont.)

[Bandit LOAF]

the 'unnecessary' information was to point out that they were using large vessels not shuttles and had really nothing to do with specifying the class of ship melek had. As and aside it also mentions in thos pages that makeshift vessels will have to do untill the kilrathi get their shipbuilding back online. I used it as a referance to my position on the kilrathi not having all of their large craft dismantled.

But it doesn't prove any of these things. How does having a tractor beam or being larger than a Thunderbolt prove that Melek has a warship? As I said about a ho-jillion posts ago, we have no idea what the size of the Kilrathi shuttle/transport things is... but we do know that they're unarmed.

Well considering that the 'Kilrathi Assembly of Clans'(from the map) hold loads of stars inside their territory I have a hard time buying that what is left of the eight ruling clans and any other faction vying for the imperial throne is just making do fighting on worlds without some hardware to back them up...even if they are limited to dralthi and such, those fighters need a carrier to get to and from battle sites....even if the carrier is a modified ttransport the cats HAVE to be using large craft, wich need weapons for defense from enemy fighters/pirates/ or just navigational hazards like stray rocks or something.

My point is that we have no idea the extent of the Kilrathi civil war, though. 99% of those planets (and there are quite a few more 'owned' by the Kilrathi...) might have absolutely nothing to do with the struggle for power. Or they might all be fighting bloody battles. We just don't know... and there are dozens of possible situations that *don't* require warships.

A few points of fact, though...

Dralthi don't require a carrier -- we see independant, jump-capable style Dralthi belonging to non-government forces in Privateer and in WCP...

Similarly, a 'fighter transport' doesn't need weapons... Melek's ship in WCIV is a defenseless (WCIV) "freighter" (WCIV novel), and can carry at least a single fighter.

I am not ignoring it actually, a very small portion of that plot revolved around confed not believing. The rest had a 'overcoming despite odds' theme what I am contesting is that you are only paying attention to one small part of the video game in that the novel for the same time/event has no mentions whatsoever of the fleets being dismantled. It does remind us that most of their navy was dismembered with the shockwave from Kilrah's death but not a thing about the Kilrathi having to disassemble what was left.

This is bad logic. Simply proving that something is not the main point of a work does *not* make it cease to exist. Melek's quote is a small part of WCIV... but that doesn't mean it isn't important to this argument or that it doesn't exist. He specifically tells us that the Kilrathi have dismantled their warships because of the treaty.

I apparently wan't clear here, we know Ragark hid his buildup from prying eyes but my reference was to the 'after the fact' when Tolwyn returns, as a military man he'll make a full report on the fleet as it is a security issue. If we use a modern model on the losing side of a war, when such a thing comes up the victor, in this case confed, moves to fix the problem, usually swiftly. Nothing since that hinted that confed did anything. The events in FC surely hurt the naval assets in the region but left a sizable force still there.

This is pointless speculation -- we don't *know* what happens after Tolwyn returns... it was the last Baen novel published. It's quite possible that he goes home, gets himself a fleet and comes and whips Ragark. We'll probably never know. (Although WCIV takes place *later*, and the Kilrathi seem quite defenseless there...).

Even if that doesn't happen, one of the big suggestsions in False Colors is that Confed is ignoring Ragark on purpose -- that they can't be bothered to take care of what they view as Kruger's problem.

since this is way off topic for queries on the hakaga, shall we move this to a new board??? I am enjoying the debate despite the repeated banging of our forheads on this

Sure, I'll start a new thread for it.

 

[Bob McDob]

Weren't the UBW CVEs basically freighters with fighters loaded on?

 

[Ringtail]

Yeah, Maniac said they were called Packets. They just stuffed the cargo holds with lighter ships and instead of launching they just pushed them out the door.

 

[phoenix_aod]

Originally posted by Bob McDob
Weren't the UBW CVEs basically freighters with fighters loaded on?

thats something I've been meaning to reread. I thought the Imtrepid was described as a cruiser that someone welded a hangar to the bottom of yes/no?? Though I do like the design's appearance in WCIV. Course I tried to get the ship database updated cause you can count 4 turrest on top and bottom and I've clocked it twice by matching my speed at 93 and 97 kps.. it dosen't give a complete picture of the Durango but it is more than is there now.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

thats something I've been meaning to reread. I thought the Imtrepid was described as a cruiser that someone welded a hangar to the bottom of yes/no?? Though I do like the design's appearance in WCIV. Course I tried to get the ship database updated cause you can count 4 turrest on top and bottom and I've clocked it twice by matching my speed at 93 and 97 kps.. it dosen't give a complete picture of the Durango but it is more than is there now.

She's a Durango class heavy destroyer, outfitted to carry fighters. I don't think anything was ever specified about the *extent* of this modification, though -- the launch bay may have been there in the first place.

She's got eight turrets in-game, although according to the novel only six are functional. I think her in-game speed is set at 100 kps.

The Intrepid isn't what Bob is talking about, though... the Border Worlds had two other types of carriers in the novels.

The aforementioned 'packets'. Freighters that could launch (but not recover in combat) fighters by simply pushing them into space. They'd have to slowly tractor in the survivors later.

They also had a pair of standard issue CVEs, which aren't discussed much. Presumably they're the same class as Tarawa.

 

[phoenix_aod]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


But it doesn't prove any of these things. How does having a tractor beam or being larger than a Thunderbolt prove that Melek has a warship? As I said about a ho-jillion posts ago, we have no idea what the size of the Kilrathi shuttle/transport things is... but we do know that they're unarmed.

actually I didn't call it a warship I said large craft, though as chancellor I'd put money he has guns on it even if it wouldn't take an old vette. As for its size, freighter/transport hrm could we possibly try the ship database or the game manuals on the size of transports for the empire?<veg>

My point is that we have no idea the extent of the Kilrathi civil war, though. 99% of those planets (and there are quite a few more 'owned' by the Kilrathi...) might have absolutely nothing to do with the struggle for power. Or they might all be fighting bloody battles. We just don't know... and there are dozens of possible situations that *don't* require warships.

I have a real problem accepting kilrathi not using combat vessels, hell the ones available to civillians in confed space even but I will grant it is POSSIBLE

Dralthi don't require a carrier -- we see independant, jump-capable style Dralthi belonging to non-government forces in Privateer and in WCP...

Actually I think the manual says those dralthi don't jump, don't ask me how they get that deep into Gemini w/o one tho, and unless you mean to make reference to every civilization's black market those gorthri and dralthi are listed as imperial save for the bounty contracts but those could still be imperials looking to prove they havee big balls

Similarly, a 'fighter transport' doesn't need weapons... Melek's ship in WCIV is a defenseless (WCIV) "freighter" (WCIV novel), and can carry at least a single fighter.

shuttles I can see being unarmed but to use reality for a sec anything of real size would need at least one gun for point defense. The shields capital vessels carry might negate this to a point but kilrathi are worse than humans on having a backup for the backup and when all else fails blowing the hazard up works

This is bad logic. Simply proving that something is not the main point of a work does *not* make it cease to exist. Melek's quote is a small part of WCIV... but that doesn't mean it isn't important to this argument or that it doesn't exist. He specifically tells us that the Kilrathi have dismantled their warships because of the treaty.

But like so many movies the book is better;-} and it dosen't mention it so which do we go with? Kilrathi who can't defend versus pirates? Or, what I think more likely, a reduced military similar to Japan's SDF.

This is pointless speculation -- we don't *know* what happens after Tolwyn returns... it was the last Baen novel published. It's quite possible that he goes home, gets himself a fleet and comes and whips Ragark. We'll probably never know. (Although WCIV takes place *later*, and the Kilrathi seem quite defenseless there...).

True but as a final note on this, if we look at it all we honestly know is that Melek and part of his hrai seem defenseless. wich I think we all agree is a REALLY TINY part of the empire

Even if that doesn't happen, one of the big suggestsions in False Colors is that Confed is ignoring Ragark on purpose -- that they can't be bothered to take care of what they view as Kruger's problem.

true the bellesarius(sp?) group but they aren't all of confed's higher up just most.


Here's another idea to consider, given that Kuilrathi space spreads far beyong the published map, even if the treaty does call for dismantling of the fleet, anyone feels like it can dick and hide in areas confed can't get to easily or at all. I'm more than sure Ragark wasn't the only noble who was annoyed at the lowborn Melek's maneuver.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

actually I didn't call it a warship I said large craft, though as chancellor I'd put money he has guns on it even if it wouldn't take an old vette. As for its size, freighter/transport hrm could we possibly try the ship database or the game manuals on the size of transports for the empire?<veg>

The manuals claim to know of no Kilrathi transport larger than 150 meters.

Actually I think the manual says those dralthi don't jump, don't ask me how they get that deep into Gemini w/o one tho, and unless you mean to make reference to every civilization's black market those gorthri and dralthi are listed as imperial save for the bounty contracts but those could still be imperials looking to prove they havee big balls

The manual makes no claims as to whether or not the Dralthi VII's can jump. Logically, they can, given that they're there in the first place. This makes even more sense, given that even Dralthi IV have been known to be outfitted with non-standard jump drives...

shuttles I can see being unarmed but to use reality for a sec anything of real size would need at least one gun for point defense. The shields capital vessels carry might negate this to a point but kilrathi are worse than humans on having a backup for the backup and when all else fails blowing the hazard up works

Disagree -- the shuttles had escort fighters for that sort of work. Each seemed to have a single Dralthi IV, which would fit the role of asteroid shooter downer and so forth... (there were maybe a few more Dralthi -- the mention of escort being destroyed in the novel supports this...).

But like so many movies the book is better;-} and it dosen't mention it so which do we go with? Kilrathi who can't defend versus pirates? Or, what I think more likely, a reduced military similar to Japan's SDF.

If the book *doesn't* mention anything and the game *does* there's *no* provable contradiction. There's no point to arguing which is superior, when we are not being forced to choose between them.

True but as a final note on this, if we look at it all we honestly know is that Melek and part of his hrai seem defenseless. wich I think we all agree is a REALLY TINY part of the empire

The tiny part that's supposedly *in charge* of the Empire? He happens to be the *only* part which we can define *policy* from. We *know* warlords have warships and so forth... but this goes *against* the treaty, based on Melek. (The simple fact that Kruger has room to complain should be proof that the treaty does insist on a dismantling of warships...).

true the bellesarius(sp?) group but they aren't all of confed's higher up just most.

Just the opposite. Bellisarius *wanted* Confed to percieve the Kilrathi as a threat... it was more general malaise that prevented them from refusing to recognize the enemy.

Here's another idea to consider, given that Kuilrathi space spreads far beyong the published map, even if the treaty does call for dismantling of the fleet, anyone feels like it can dick and hide in areas confed can't get to easily or at all. I'm more than sure Ragark wasn't the only noble who was annoyed at the lowborn Melek's maneuver.

Oh, absolutely -- we *know* warlords are hiding their personal forces. The question was whether or not the treaty called for the dismantling of the fleet -- which it apparently did. Confed has certainly been lax in *enforcing* the treaty, according to False Colors.

Still, going back to the *original* point, the Hakagas were probably dismantled: Confed knew about them, and Confed would have been adamant that the ships capable of devestating Earth not be stolen by a warlord.

 

[phoenix_aod]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


The manuals claim to know of no Kilrathi transport larger than 150 meters.

still a good sized critter

The manual makes no claims as to whether or not the Dralthi VII's can jump. Logically, they can, given that they're there in the first place. This makes even more sense, given that even Dralthi IV have been known to be outfitted with non-standard jump drives...

where do you figure those are VIIs?? They are closer to IIIs, and here I have to agree given the wierdly designed vessels from Armada inluded a predecessor to the moder mkIV with jump engines.

Disagree -- the shuttles had escort fighters for that sort of work. Each seemed to have a single Dralthi IV, which would fit the role of asteroid shooter downer and so forth... (there were maybe a few more Dralthi -- the mention of escort being destroyed in the novel supports this...).

I said I agree that the shuttles would be unarmed but if we use the 150m long transports I stand by the necessity, wich every kil and human transport did have at least one gun

If the book *doesn't* mention anything and the game *does* there's *no* provable contradiction. There's no point to arguing which is superior, when we are not being forced to choose between them.

Well there are reasons I do feel the need to choose and this debate is more than usefull in giving me other perspectives<G>

The tiny part that's supposedly *in charge* of the Empire? He happens to be the *only* part which we can define *policy* from. We *know* warlords have warships and so forth... but this goes *against* the treaty, based on Melek. (The simple fact that Kruger has room to complain should be proof that the treaty does insist on a dismantling of warships...).

This has more merit and does make sense, and while the chancellor is supposedly in charge I wonder how many nobles honestly listen

Oh, absolutely -- we *know* warlords are hiding their personal forces. The question was whether or not the treaty called for the dismantling of the fleet -- which it apparently did. Confed has certainly been lax in *enforcing* the treaty, according to False Colors.

hell they didn't even enforce quarentine on bug artifacts...

Still, going back to the *original* point, the Hakagas were probably dismantled: Confed knew about them, and Confed would have been adamant that the ships capable of devestating Earth not be stolen by a warlord.

Actually they by themselves weren't they didn't launch nukes, the cruisers did. The Hakagas just made everwhelming escort for the assault. I think however, that at least one patially complete one made it back to confed r&d since a)thrakath states it overcomes several problems with larger vessels and b)several similarities to the Midway are irrefutable

 

[Bandit LOAF]

still a good sized critter

... but smaller than a warship, which was the point. I think.

where do you figure those are VIIs?? They are closer to IIIs, and here I have to agree given the wierdly designed vessels from Armada inluded a predecessor to the moder mkIV with jump engines.

The Academy box-cover identifies the 'fluid' Privateer style Dralthi as VIIs. Perhaps the Armada variant is the III?

I said I agree that the shuttles would be unarmed but if we use the 150m long transports I stand by the necessity, wich every kil and human transport did have at least one gun

Melek's little ship is clearly unarmed. The larger freighters that were part of the convoy probably *were* armed... for the same reason: when you see them in the game, they have a pair of turrets. (The 'wedge-shaped' Kilrathi transports only show up in-engine in the 3DO version of WC3...).

Actually they by themselves weren't they didn't launch nukes, the cruisers did. The Hakagas just made everwhelming escort for the assault. I think however, that at least one patially complete one made it back to confed r&d since a)thrakath states it overcomes several problems with larger vessels and b)several similarities to the Midway are irrefutable

I believe the expression is "anal to the point of weird" -- the Hakagas are unquestionably the ships that allowed the Kilrathi to attack Earth, and are thus the ships that forced the 'unaffected' civilians to take the war seriously <G>

Tolwyn certainly implies that Vesuvius is based on the Hakaga class ships... although it hadn't overcome the jump size issues yet.

 

[phoenix_aod]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


The Academy box-cover identifies the 'fluid' Privateer style Dralthi as VIIs. Perhaps the Armada variant is the III?

well I haven't had a working copy of academy in years but why would that be a 7?? Seems a hughe leap backwards, I figured that was the improved mk2 mentioned in FF and the armada was the 3 predecessor to the workhorse 4

Melek's little ship is clearly unarmed. The larger freighters that were part of the convoy probably *were* armed... for the same reason: when you see them in the game, they have a pair of turrets. (The 'wedge-shaped' Kilrathi transports only show up in-engine in the 3DO version of WC3...).

that isn't the one in the ship database is it??

I believe the expression is "anal to the point of weird" -- the Hakagas are unquestionably the ships that allowed the Kilrathi to attack Earth, and are thus the ships that forced the 'unaffected' civilians to take the war seriously <G>

nah just being a smartass<G> but I am more inclined to beliteve that the Karga not the hakaga was the influence into the Vesuvius. First Tolwyn got his hands dirty in cleaning up that one and repeadtly made comments on design characteristic he liked and second if confed had made the vesuvius more like the hakaga, the midway would be unnecessary since they'd have a carrier that hauled around major fleet assets already.

[QUOTETolwyn certainly implies that Vesuvius is based on the Hakaga class ships... although it hadn't overcome the jump size issues yet. [/QUOTE]
As above I still feel more on the bhantakara(sp?) class held more sway.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

well I haven't had a working copy of academy in years but why would that be a 7?? Seems a hughe leap backwards, I figured that was the improved mk2 mentioned in FF and the armada was the 3 predecessor to the workhorse 4

Well, you don't really need a working copy of Academy to look at the box...

Here's a cheap scan from the Chinese edition of Academy... because that happens to be the one within arms reach:

I'm sure we can figure out all the Dralthi if we try hard enough.

KF-100 Dralthi: WC Movie
"New" Dralthi: Wing Commander 1
Dralthi Mk. II: Secret Missions 2
Dralthi Mk. IV: Wing Commander III
Dralthi Mk. VII: Privateer(?)

Now that leaves us a few unaccounted for:
Dralthi (Armada)
Dralthi (Rightous Fire)
Dralthi (Wing Commander IV)
and possibly the Prophecy Dralthi, although it was probably just a 'spit and glue' Dralthi IV.

KF-100 Dralthi: WC Movie
"New" Dralthi: Wing Commander 1
Dralthi Mk. II: Secret Missions 2
Dralthi Mk. III: Armada
Dralthi Mk. IV: Wing Commander III
Dralthi Mk. V: Wing Commander IV
Dralthi Mk. VI: Privateer
Dralthi Mk. VII: Rightous Fire

I would propose a Dralthi list that looks like this:

that isn't the one in the ship database is it??

Nope, it's the one you see in WCIV -- in the video sequence where a Lance attacks the Kilrathi transports. According to the 3DO manual, the stats are similar to the transports from regular WC3 (which are also in the 3DO version). Here's a grab from the DVD:

nah just being a smartass<G> but I am more inclined to beliteve that the Karga not the hakaga was the influence into the Vesuvius. First Tolwyn got his hands dirty in cleaning up that one and repeadtly made comments on design characteristic he liked and second if confed had made the vesuvius more like the hakaga, the midway would be unnecessary since they'd have a carrier that hauled around major fleet assets already.

Based on the length of time it takes to build a carrier, one must assume work was started *before* Tolwyn had his little adventure on the Landreich (one could make a believable argument that work on the Vesuvius started during the war). What Tolwyn specifically says, though, is "We borrowed some ideas from the super carriers they launched against Earth" (p. 48) -- meaning the Hakagas and not the later Bhantkara class ships.

I think the importance of the Midway class ships are that they're cheap jack-of-all-trade ships... which neither the Hakaga nor the Vesuvius is.

 

[phoenix_aod]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


I would propose a Dralthi list that looks like this:
KF-100 Dralthi: WC Movie
"New" Dralthi: Wing Commander 1
Dralthi Mk. II: Secret Missions 2
Dralthi Mk. III: Armada
Dralthi Mk. IV: Wing Commander III
Dralthi Mk. V: Wing Commander IV
Dralthi Mk. VI: Privateer
Dralthi Mk. VII: Rightous Fire

The list makes sense but seems to contradict itself, personally I ingore the movie though I did like that dralthi, but with that logic the VI and VII seem a HUGE leap backwards. Further I'd suggest that the V is just a variant of the IV. As a workhorse model fighter, I'm sure there are hundreds of variants on her.

Nope, it's the one you see in WCIV -- in the video sequence where a Lance attacks the Kilrathi transports. According to the 3DO manual, the stats are similar to the transports from regular WC3 (which are also in the 3DO version). Here's a grab from the DVD:

Nice capture. whats that third ship in the distance? It dosen't look like the same ship.

Based on the length of time it takes to build a carrier, one must assume work was started *before* Tolwyn had his little adventure on the Landreich (one could make a believable argument that work on the Vesuvius started during the war). What Tolwyn specifically says, though, is "We borrowed some ideas from the super carriers they launched against Earth" (p. 48) -- meaning the Hakagas and not the later Bhantkara class ships.

Thats possible but it seems odd, there wasn't alot of leftovers after the attack on earth, those that were left. Peerhaps a bit of mid construction redesign to incorporate things he learned from the karga?

I think the importance of the Midway class ships are that they're cheap jack-of-all-trade ships... which neither the Hakaga nor the Vesuvius is.

I don't know about cheap<G> nothing with a marine brigade, three flight wings and almost 300k tonnes of mass is cheap<G>. Though that might be the midway's primary asset to confed, the 'mobile starbase' approach wich the hakaga was not.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The list makes sense but seems to contradict itself, personally I ingore the movie though I did like that dralthi, but with that logic the VI and VII seem a HUGE leap backwards. Further I'd suggest that the V is just a variant of the IV. As a workhorse model fighter, I'm sure there are hundreds of variants on her.

I think the movie Dralthi is necessary -- given the references to the 'new' Dralthi in WC1 and that it's established that the type of ship goes back many, many years. There must be a predecessor to the WC1 Dralthi... so why not the KF-100?

The WCIV Dralthi gets its own mark simply because there was so little change between the Dralthi and the Dralthi Mk. II... missiles and guns change, and it gets a whole new designation. I see the same thing happening in WCIV.

I think something we have to consider is the non-linearity of ship introduction to the player... *we're* not introduced to the ships in the same order as they enter service (*usually*). Dralthi IV's may have been introduced in 2655... we just don't know. Remember that although Privateer came out years earlier, it's *set* at the same time as WCIII. The Dralthi VII (Rightous Fire) is certainly new for 2669... so it makes sense for it to have the highest designation (and then for its predecessor, the Privateer Dralthi, to fit into slot 6).

Nice capture. whats that third ship in the distance? It dosen't look like the same ship.

It's the same class of ship as Melek was onboard... the smaller kind.

Thats possible but it seems odd, there wasn't alot of leftovers after the attack on earth, those that were left. Peerhaps a bit of mid construction redesign to incorporate things he learned from the karga?

Who knows <G>? He does specify the Hakagas being an influence... and production probably would have started before 2671.

I don't know about cheap<G> nothing with a marine brigade, three flight wings and almost 300k tonnes of mass is cheap<G>. Though that might be the midway's primary asset to confed, the 'mobile starbase' approach wich the hakaga was not.

Comparitively cheap, when up against the VEsuvius class ships.

 

[Bob McDob]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
It's the same class of ship as Melek was onboard... the smaller kind.

They look like scout cruisers or whatever the hell they called them.

I find it interesting the WCM Dralthi resembles more a DIV than the "newer" WC and II models. Perhaps they're made by different clans? Or they're the Imperial's hillbilly cousins (ST fans may get this one).

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Actually, I think they most resemble the WC1 Dralthi... at least, proportionately they do. They have the same length-to-width ratio that the original Dralthi did... instead of being wider than they are long like the later ones.

 

[phoenix_aod]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF


I think the movie Dralthi is necessary -- given the references to the 'new' Dralthi in WC1 and that it's established that the type of ship goes back many, many years. There must be a predecessor to the WC1 Dralthi... so why not the KF-100?

Because the movie dralthi is much cooler than any of the video game dralthi??? I do think that they tried very hard in the confed handbook to make the stats ver WC1ish wich I can appreciate even if I can't appreciate putting the Wing Commander title on an otherwise decent sci-fi movie.

The WCIV Dralthi gets its own mark simply because there was so little change between the Dralthi and the Dralthi Mk. II... missiles and guns change, and it gets a whole new designation. I see the same thing happening in WCIV.

I think something we have to consider is the non-linearity of ship introduction to the player... *we're* not introduced to the ships in the same order as they enter service (*usually*). Dralthi IV's may have been introduced in 2655... we just don't know. Remember that although Privateer came out years earlier, it's *set* at the same time as WCIII. The Dralthi VII (Rightous Fire) is certainly new for 2669... so it makes sense for it to have the highest designation (and then for its predecessor, the Privateer Dralthi, to fit into slot 6).

Damn you....I can't find any holes in this arguement<G>. Ok so aside from the graphic designers basing on the more recent WC1/2 games we could concievably ignore the designs appearance given the bat wing is back in prophecy?

Who knows <G>? He does specify the Hakagas being an influence... and production probably would have started before 2671.

Well given their shipbuilding speeds I'd say 2665 or 66 unless he dumped ungodly resources into a 24/7 construction wich I think might have been impractical while they were losing a war and then not likely with the peace happy post war. This of course means something like the Vesuvius was on the board long before and went through at least one mid-construction redesign.

Comparitively cheap, when up against the VEsuvius class ships.

Maybe the appeal was having a warship built by levi strauss co? Sorry I always thought it looked like stylized bell bottoms...

 

[phoenix_aod]

off topic but since the movie has been brought up, whats with the anchors on the concordia????

 

[Meson]

Originally posted by phoenix_aod
off topic but since the movie has been brought up, whats with the anchors on the concordia????

In space, there is nothing to keep you in place, and just about any bump can send you drifting out of contrio. You need something to keep you in one place. Normally, the ship's engines would do this. However, they cost fuel, and may not be effective or practical. Having anchors is a great idea when you are near an astriod, moon, or athmosphereless planet. You can just anchor yourself to the planet, and be sure that you're not going anywhere, and you won't have to waiste all that fuel.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Damn you....I can't find any holes in this arguement<G>. Ok so aside from the graphic designers basing on the more recent WC1/2 games we could concievably ignore the designs appearance given the bat wing is back in prophecy?

It's not necessarily an evolutionary process, though -- round Dralthi are just a different type...

Well given their shipbuilding speeds I'd say 2665 or 66 unless he dumped ungodly resources into a 24/7 construction wich I think might have been impractical while they were losing a war and then not likely with the peace happy post war. This of course means something like the Vesuvius was on the board long before and went through at least one mid-construction redesign.

2668, based on the stated 5 year number for carriers.

off topic but since the movie has been brought up, whats with the anchors on the concordia????

It's just a hatch of some sort:

 

[Bob McDob]

Originally posted by phoenix_aod
Ok so aside from the graphic designers basing on the more recent WC1/2 games we could concievably ignore the designs appearance given the bat wing is back in prophecy?

I don't notice any significant differences between the WCIII&P models...