Is Killing Kilrathi and Nephilim more justified than Humans?

Yes. He was an officer during the war, but as you'll recall from the start of the game he was out of the military and down on his luck. Seether's group hired him (and some others) as mercenaries and provided them with weapons to conduct raids in the Peleus System.
 
bean2.jpg


"I flew off the TCS Liberty."
 
He was a mercenary as far as the fact that he needed money to eat. But mercenary also has inherent in its definition a lack of morals, i.e. someone who wouldn't make statements like "there's no damn honor just tryin to poke someone in the eye like that" and "ain't like in the old days, when you had a cause." Bean, and many of the other Confed pilots, were being fed the typical company line and didn't know what they were really getting into (until maybe near the end of the conflict, at which point you're flying against mostly Black Lance craft anyways.)
 
Bandit LOAF said:
The attack on Speradon is the best evidence of this. Solely on the pretense that *if* there is a war they'll want weapons they invade Confederation space, kill Confederation civilians and take Confederation weapons? That's Pearl Harbor logic.

The Invasion Of Pearl Harbor was very similar to that, yes. ;)
 
He was a mercenary as far as the fact that he needed money to eat. But mercenary also has inherent in its definition a lack of morals, i.e. someone who wouldn't make statements like "there's no damn honor just tryin to poke someone in the eye like that" and "ain't like in the old days, when you had a cause." Bean, and many of the other Confed pilots, were being fed the typical company line and didn't know what they were really getting into (until maybe near the end of the conflict, at which point you're flying against mostly Black Lance craft anyways.)

I don't think need to eat is a good justification for taking a job that involves killing people. It's probably true that nearly every hired killer does their job because they need money.

That's the difference between Bean and an ordinary Confed pilot that shows the moral difference -- he took the job because he needed money, not because he believed he was defending his country.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I don't think need to eat is a good justification for taking a job that involves killing people. It's probably true that nearly every hired killer does their job because they need money.

That's the difference between Bean and an ordinary Confed pilot that shows the moral difference -- he took the job because he needed money, not because he believed he was defending his country.
Does anyone think that Blair was more or less justified in signing up to fight for Confed at the start of the conflict? It seems Blair may have signed up for all the same reasons as Bean, except that as far as we know, Blair wasn't low enough to resort to begging for food. Also, Vagabond didn't give "defending his country" as a reason for his getting involved in the conflict. All he says is that he was enjoying the paychecks and was unfortunately dragged into the conflict as a result. I wouldn't like to kill pilots from either Confed or BW's sides. As someone mentioned earlier though, killing Black Lance fighters would've been similar to killing Nephilim or Kilrathi pilots. In real life, I wouldn't have signed up for the conflict because it was uncertain whether I was fighting for a worthy cause.
 
Wouldn't he have the opportunity to turn it down though? I get the impression from Maniac's visit that Blair had a choice when Maniac asks him to come along. Even if he "doesn't" have a choice, you would think it would be embarassing to the Confederation if word got out that they put the hero of the Kilrathi war in jail. Also, I can't recall for sure what Eisen said to Blair in their conversation, but wasn't he surprised to see Blair since Blair had told him he was through flying?
 
No, reserve officers don't have the option of deciding not to fight when they're called up to duty.
 
Fenris Ulven said:
Of course is muh more justified to kill some furball than humans.,..

That adds a lot to the discussion, thanks.


In terms of the morality of the Kilrathi War, it seems sure to be the sort of thing that would be debated a hundred years later -- after all, it was the Confederation that initially declared the war.

The "ALL KILRATHI ARE EVIL HAHAHA" bit seems to be nothing more than McGruffian message board idiocy -- an inane statement made solely for the sake of shock value.

The Kilrathi are certainly more than furry pre-set killbots. We see Kilrathi who oppose the war, we see Kilrathi who oppose the nature of the war... we see Kilrathi who are more interested in improving their society than fighting humans (the rebels at Ghorah Khar, Prince Murragh, etc.) Probably the best romantic line in all of the series is spoken by Ralgha to Hassa: "... perhaps I should have claimed you as my mate and bearer of my children when I had the chance. Years ago, before politics and soldiering claimed my life and the Lord Sivar claimed yours."
 
My view is that although the Confederation declared war on the Kilrathi Empire, I believe that their actions to strike the Kilrathi is more of a self preservation than anything else.
If there was anything which humans learn from their past history is that their species are not to taken as slaves but to live without persecution or enslavement. Sure there has been the pilgrim war and the racial discrimination in the past, but the Confederation have gradually adopted to work together and put aside their personal differences.
The war with the Nephilim is almost just as similiar to the Kilrathi however I think (although I could be wrong) that they wanted to enslave all species to their will or destroy all who stood in their way.
If I was living in that time, I would have done my duty as any Confed officers would be. However I would be questioning my orders/motives as to the events during the Border Worlds crisis, I would hesitate on attacking other human beings, but if human did threaten the peace of the Confederation/Border Worlds or any human governing body I would defend them...
 
LOAF, your points are quite interesting (and personally I agree with them), but in the large picture, the whole war situation was fomented by Tolwyn... so neither side was operating under true assumptions... And yes, the Speradon attacks were wrong.

And concerning the leeching of confed pilots after defecting... Most pilots in the Lex are BL personell, as stated in the book. the normal guys were gradually transfered out and GE Black Lance guys were transfered in, IIRC. anyway, I ALWAYS leeched the Lex, and usually tried to keep confed people alive. pirates, mercs and BL was another deal, because they were definitely NOT unwilling pawns... they knew they were up to no good.

But anyway, my point stands. there is no moral difference between a human and a kilrathy. Sure, if we're in a war, then I"ll send missiles down the kats throats just as I would do with retros and human pirates. But slaughtering allied kats and transport shuttles is a quite not grey zone. It is clearly and undoubtedly wrong. it is bigotry, blind hatred. Remember, Bear got into that mix up at the gettysburg precisely because he would not destroy a civilian kilrathi transport.

And I sincerely admire kilrathi... aside from members of clan ruling families (kiranka included), most kilrathi strike me as honourable and steadfast persons. Most evil stuff was the doing of thrakath and other "lords".
 
Well.

Kilrathi want to be klilled. It's worthy of honor of a warrrior to get blown to bits. So its a favor to them

Bugs are a slave race, weak and pathetic. In other to save them, we must destroy the masters they are so pathetically defending. So it's also a favor to them

Humans are harder, but, if they are pirates or traitors, there's usually little choice.

On most cases, it's a pretty solid case of self defense.
 
And concerning the leeching of confed pilots after defecting... Most pilots in the Lex are BL personell, as stated in the book. the normal guys were gradually transfered out and GE Black Lance guys were transfered in, IIRC. anyway, I ALWAYS leeched the Lex, and usually tried to keep confed people alive. pirates, mercs and BL was another deal, because they were definitely NOT unwilling pawns... they knew they were up to no good.

I don't think the book states this -- Blair specifically thinks about all the innocent pilots and crew still onboard the ship when he fires the torpedo. In both cases, we see pretty full rosters of ordinary pilots when we defect - from the one physically in the game, to in the book where Col. Fan takes over the regular fighter wing. (Not that pilots make up anywhere near the majority of the crew of a carrier, anyway...).
 
Oh, of course, its never morally right to kill X just because of their race/whatever. By Kilrathi I assume a Kilrathi Armed Soldier on a military mission against humans. By Human I assume a Pirate or Black Lancer, and the nephilim. Well, we don't even know if there are civilian bugs.
 
I just started this question due to the statement that Mjr.Whoopass said he could never kill a human but that killing a Kilrathi wasn't a problem. To me, it would seem that in any situation where the other "creature" has a hostile intent to harm, molest or murder me or people that I care about then I feel justified in using force to stop that "creature" if the force required is fatal then that's what is needed. Whether the opponent in this situation is human or not is not the deciding factor for me...nor should I think it would be for anyone.
 
Intriguing discussion...

I noticed this discussion and thought it was an interesting one worth talking about...

My take on it would probably be most like Striker's...but again, this is a matter of personal preference. Even within the storylines of Wing Commander, you get the feeling that there are those fighting the Kilrathi, but only so far as to end the war...and then there are those who have often taken on the role of avenging angels - after some personal loss due to the war, they see it as their mission to eradicate every member of the entire species. It's really the whole argument on where to draw the line...the only way to be certain that the other side never fights back ever again would be genocide...but in doing that, how does that make you the better side of the conflict? Ideally, things should all boil down to an uneasy truce like what we see at the end of the Kilrathi War where you've got "good guys" and "bad guys" on both sides. Or for any of you Trekkie fans out there, it'd be like in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country where you had the uneasy truce between the Federation and the Klingon Empire...of course there, the intriguing storyline was a joint effort by people on both sides to undermine the whole truce... But going back to the topic at hand...

We get the idea even during the Kilrathi War that it's strictly about war...it's not just about human versus cat. That's one thing I thought was very deep in Wing Commander 2...sure, you'd fly against the Kilrathi for most of the game, but then there were the terrorist acts of the Mandarins, and then eventually events fell into place where you were flying 1-v-1 against the hotshot pilot, Jazz (well self-proclaimed hotshot, at any rate). Now, all the events leading up to that point were done in such a way so as to not endear the character of Colson to the player...but still, the fact remains...it's war, he has information that could undermine your efforts and thus your effectiveness in fighting that war, so you have to shoot him down.

Then there's Wing Commander 4 with the whole Black Lance thing...granted, I too felt at odds with myself for flying against Confederation craft who likely weren't Black Lance, but just people doing their job. But the fact that they blindly followed orders and flew against Blair and the Intrepid with a whole shoot-first, ask-questions-later mentality...it was, as others have said, simply a matter of you or them...you weren't sure who in Confed you could still trust either, so there was no choice. You did what had to be done for the greater good...which is ultimately what we'd all like to think war is about anyway - whether it's fighting for money, equality, patriotism, other ideals, or whatever else...

And I think what underscores this whole "they're not all evil" concept is the destruction of Kilrah. By the time Prophecy roles around, you get the feeling that Blair has some misgivings about the destruction of an entire planet to end a war. Granted, what's done is done...and at the time, it was the only option they saw available to end it. At the time when you were making your way across the surface of Kilrah in your Excalibur moving ever closer to that fault line, maybe it was the graphics of the time or maybe it was all the things that had piled up on you by that point - having lost all the comrades you lost, having lost all the ships the Confederation had lost, having lost Angel, having seen the look of defeat in Tolwyn's eyes and the waning hope in everyone else's...perhaps at that moment as you were flying across the surface of Kilrah like a bat out of hell, it was clear what you had to do. But just like Blair afterwards, I would think you'd be asking yourself for years after that, "did I do the right thing? Was there no other way?"

The Nephilim, by contrast, are a different story altogether. We don't know if there are any civilian bugs, but if you take into account that the Nephilim are intended to be essentially larger versions of modern day insects, it lends credence to the fact that there likely are no civilians (I always envisioned a hive design with a queen, warriors, and workers)...the Nephilim are very like-minded and intent on singular purposes that escape us (unless the designers simply wanted to spin out a shoot-them-all space combat sim without any storyline...which the depth of Prophecy and mystery surrounding the Nephilim would seem to contradict, in my mind). As such, one would have to wonder if the Nephilim could even be seen as individual creatures, or rather like-minded genetically-related grunts doing the bidding of a higher mind. If the latter is the case, then that means the very nature of the Nephilim is, unfortunately, that of cannon fodder, which we almost get the idea of as we fly against entire waves of Nephilim fighters in Prophecy with no necessarily distinct foes (i.e. no true aces with individual identities).

So here, it's a bit of a more confusing question to ask...the question here is - would there be any other way to stop the Nephilim if they were to invade other than simply killing them all? And that's an impossible one to answer.

Individual humans and Kilrathi seem to think independently of the others around them, however...so I think it needs to be on a case-by-case basis. Yes, there are some cats and humans that deserve to die...but I'd still like to think that the majority either want peace or simply to be left alone.

That's the reason the ending of WC3, while spectacular, was so very tragic in hindsight. It's not something you do one day and forget the next...you killed some innocent people who didn't have a chance to voice their opinions, hopes, or dreams about things...just in one violent flash, that was it...and everyone was just left picking up the pieces - including Blair.

So as for humanity and the Kilrathi...I'd fly against both as equals personally. And based on what we're told of the Nephilim (they're essentially made out to be an anti-life race for you to fight against), I would likely engage them with maximum hostility until there was evidence to show that I should do otherwise.

These are just my opinions, however...each is entitled to his/her own. But nevertheless, kudos to you guys for a thought-provoking conversation/argument. :)

- FireFalcon ~};^
 
LOAF, I was specifically refering to shooting down the confed pilots from the lex, not the LEx herself... I wasn't clear :) Sure, the non-flying crew of the lex was pretty much innocent...

And to all: I'm NOT talking about killing kats, bugs and humans IN WAR. Of course it is right to kill your foe in combat, no matter the species. I'm talking about the guys here who said they would kill any kilrathi they ever saw because they bloody hate the kilrathi. And I'm saying that there is no moral justification to shooting Melek's shuttle in WC4 or the friendly kilrathi fighters in WCP. Simple as that.
 
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