I Must Admit

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ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
Sibb Tigre said:
When he says, where have the beautiful ships gone, that's opinion..

His "opinion" is against the ships. You cannot "correct" someones opinion, nor tell "them that they are wrong". However, you can "argue"; "why you think they are wrong", by expressing your opinion.

So what? In my opinion, that's a giant load of crap. You can't tell me I'm wrong though.

We can go back and forth all day like this. It's ridiculous that someone would think exchanging argumentative opinions is the only way to argue, debate or tell someone they're wrong, let alone the only way. As LOAF already did, you can clearly outline facts and examples and demonstrate to everyone else how someone's opinion is wrong, or at the very least, obviously misinformed or ignorant of those facts and examples.
 

d3r3k

Spaceman
heavy said:
Is "TROLL" an arguement ???? I don't like to be called "TROLL" just for my point of view and taste

WORST SHIP EVER DESIGNED:



I have ALL the videogames made for the PC until 2000. My father was a videogames reviewer. I have seen ALL the ships from ALL the games. I have also a BIG Sci-fi comics and books collection (thousands, i'm not a kid, i'm 39). ) and i think that the BARRACUDA is the worst ship ever designed.
Is correct to say my point of view ???

BIO TECH ??? A fish at space is biotech ???
If you like BIO-TECH check some art by GIGER. That's BIOTECH.

I don't know what's sadder: you're arguement, or the fact that a supposedly 39 year old person came up with it.

LeHah, what movie is that quote from? It sounds very familiar.
 

Howard Day

Random art guy.
I must admit - I thought Prophecy freaking rocked. Very pretty game, lots of fun, endless streams of enemies....I loved it. Even better, though, was the Secret Ops sequel. Released free. Holy crap, I couldn't believe it when I first heard about it - brilliant idea. When it comes down to it, the Nephilim will never replace the Kilrathi in my gaming heart - but Prophecy had most of the best and most detailed ship designs in the entire series. The fighters had visible manuvering jets, for crying out loud! Moving parts! So very cool.
 

Lt.Death100

Spaceman
This game was one of the main reasons I came into WC. The art direction was very good. Ships actually seemed actually foreign and mysterious. Especially the ships that either broke off or linked together. While admittedly the AI isn't perfect I think it's very servicable. Heavy I really don't know what you're thinking, hating Prophecy, it really is outstanding.
 

Tigerhawk

Captain
LeHah said:
Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace

Hate to correct you here, but it's more like:

Jar-Jar: "I speak!"
Qui-Gon: "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here."

But either way, I'm sure it's more of a paraphrase, which would fit nicely there in any case.
 

QuailPilot

Spaceman
About the nephilim ships... They are the most interesting designs I have ever seen. It is refreshing to see somthing different from the "see how many rockets boosters I can strap on this thing" mentality.

I enjoy almost all the ships in WC...but the neph. ships will always be the most enjoyed.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
d3r3k said:
I don't know what's sadder: you're arguement, or the fact that a supposedly 39 year old person came up with it.

If this is one of those comments about how someone should "grow up," we should make sure to avoid that. If not, just skip ahead to the next post, but I've heard some silly sniping about how older people look immature posting to internet message boards, and it doesn't make sense. Sooner or later we're all going to be 39-year-olds posting at internet message boards. The only reason we don't have many posters in their forties now is because not many people in their forties had computers when they were young.
 

Tigerhawk

Captain
heavy said:
In my opiniom, Prophecy and Secret Ops have the worst space ships designs i have ever seen. Where have gone all the beautiful ships from WC3/4 and Privateer 2 ????
i'm sorry for the designer, but the nephilim ships design just suck. Maybe the Barracuda is the worst ship ever... Is Prophecy an underwater simulator ????

I have to point something out here: The simple fact is, any theoretical race that takes to the stars doesn't need to lend grace and balance to their spaceborne designs. The fact is that they're ALIEN, and that could mean a huge difference in thinking. To an alien mind, grace and style could mean absolutely nothing. The Kilrathi ships had a specific type of design, many of which, if you'll notice, came to some sort of point on many of their wings (fighters/bombers) and fore (Capital ships: Dreadnaught, Fralthi II, etc). They were going for a complete departure in design with the Nephilum here...at least that's what I've always thought...and they were certainly highly successful with that idea. Hell, most of the Nephilum ships look like they're coming out of a nightmare...the fore of these ships follow a line that Zero had out of Prophecy: "I remember having to sleep with the light on for days" (at least I think that was the quote), and the idea that the fore of Nephilum ships look like they have arms to grab you from a distance to bring you to the mouth and eat you is quite telling.

Just my opinion here, but I'd say that you're looking at the designs all wrong. The Nephilum ain't graceful...they have no use for that. As Casey had asked Blair, "Who are they?", Blair answered, "Death".

And THAT, my friend, is the end reason behind the designs. To transmit an idea of Nightmarish Death. They ain't bright in color and they ain't mechanical...every part of their crews and every part of their ships (as referenced even in Secret Ops) is organic. And many organics bring horrible, nightmarish death.

So, too, it is with the Nephilum.
 

Maj.Striker

Swabbie
Banned
Eh, I didn't much care for the look of any of the Nephilim ships. I still love Prophecy though, just on a artistic appeal aspect, I thought the Nephilim ships all looked pretty much like crap. The Barracuda though was pretty cool in game I thought. The fighters were what I thought looked a little weak...but I'm not complaining, Prophecy was a great game.
 

Iceblade

Admiral
Never seriously thought about the nep ships as a matter of art. Having thought about them, I have to say they don't do anything for me--but then again I don't like seafood either.

Now I thought the Vampire and Panther looked awesome the first time I saw them back in 97 maybe 98.
 

Mincemeat

Doomsday's Neighbour
I think the art direction for the Nephilim ships in Prophecy/SO were way ahead of its time.

In the fiction it describes the "hull" of the fighers as:

Color is dark, with a red or purple tint, surface is glossy and displays a moire or 'shimmer' effect under direct light.

I've always imagined it to be similar to the inside shell of an abalone. You'll need to hold a real shell and move it around under a light to see the full effect though - static photos don't properly convey what it looks like.

There's absolutely no way Origin could have rendered it with the 3D hardware at the time... However with today's graphics cards and rendering APIs it'll be quite easy.

I would imagine that sucessfully implementing the above would enhance the effect that the original artists had in mind.
 

heavy

Spaceman
ChrisReid said:
If this is one of those comments about how someone should "grow up," we should make sure to avoid that. If not, just skip ahead to the next post, but I've heard some silly sniping about how older people look immature posting to internet message boards, and it doesn't make sense. Sooner or later we're all going to be 39-year-olds posting at internet message boards. The only reason we don't have many posters in their forties now is because not many people in their forties had computers when they were young.


The only inmature here is the one that call me "TROLL" because he don't respect other people tastes

I'm a musician and i have never called "TROLL" to somebody that told me about other musical tastes.

THAT'S INMATURE: TO INSULT SOMEBODY BECAUSE YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.

And yes, i had played all the games since i had a Sinclair ZX-81 (16 kbytes). I have played with Spectrum, Collecovision, Commodore 64, Amstrad, MSX, Master system, Nintendo 8 Bits, Commodore Amiga, Atari ST, Supernintendo, Megadrive, SegaCD, Nintendo 64, Saturn... All the games in all the systems.... yes i'm a lucky man
Is somebody old enough to remember games like "CODENAME MAT" or "3D STARSTRIKE" ????

About the Alien Capital ship screenshot..... Is that a screenshot ???... That's a beautiful render (maybe from a video) but NOT a screenshot

Bandit LOAF said:
... so you're arguing with a straight face that a *fish* is less of a biological entity than the alien from Alien?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... Are you saying that the BARRACUDA design can be compared with the GIGER Designs for the Alien movie ????? AHAHAHAHAHAHAAH .......WHAT A JOKE !!!!!!!!!!
 

MartySheen

Rear Admiral
Iceblade said:
Never seriously thought about the nep ships as a matter of art. Having thought about them, I have to say they don't do anything for me--but then again I don't like seafood either.

Exactly. You either like them, or you dont - it's that simple.
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Tigerhawk said:
Hate to correct you here...

Don't worry, because you didn't. I said "To coin" earlier, giving me certain liberties with the quote, thank you.

heavy said:
The only inmature here is the one that call me "TROLL" because he don't respect other people tastes

But you're allowed to disrespect other people by posting banalities? I mean, seriously, you're just baiting people here. I know you can see that because it doesn't take a genius to put cheese in a mousetrap.

We have nothing but respect for your tastes, but if you're going to act like a jerk, we're going to have nothing but dislike for you.

heavy said:
THAT'S INMATURE

I know the topic of age was already brought up by Chris - but do you really believe this guy is 39 now?

heavy said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... Are you saying that the BARRACUDA design can be compared with the GIGER Designs for the Alien movie ????? AHAHAHAHAHAHAAH .......WHAT A JOKE !!!!!!!!!!

Actually, a good comparison can be easily made. Giger's art is largely centered around bio-mechanical material and the alien spacecraft in Prophecy certainly have an organic look to them. While you may prefer Giger, the similarities are there.

Besides, its Syd Mead. Are you going to tell me now that have something against the design of Blade Runner?
 

MartySheen

Rear Admiral
LeHah said:
How is justifying one's arguement with facts and evidence make it unplesant?

Someone elses arguments, facts and evidence means nothing when it comes down to personel taste. Like i said above, you either like something or you dont.

It was unpleasant LeHah. Loaf could have been polite and decent, (dare I say civilised?) towards heavy.

Heavy was just putting his point of view about the prophecy fighters across. Isn't discussing different points of view on WC games what the CIC forums are for?

What's the point in having a forum if you cant say what you think without getting attacked/insulted for it. It puts people off.
 

Dyret

Super Carrot!
heavy said:
About the Alien Capital ship screenshot..... Is that a screenshot ???... That's a beautiful render (maybe from a video) but NOT a screenshot

God, that's stupid. You claimed the Nephilim ships were poorly designed. If they only look bad ingame, It's because the 1997 engine had no way of showing them in all their glory, *not* because they're poorly designed.
 

heavy

Spaceman
LeHah said:
But you're allowed to disrespect other people by posting banalities? I mean, seriously, you're just baiting people here. I know you can see that because it doesn't take a genius to put cheese in a mousetrap.

We have nothing but respect for your tastes, but if you're going to act like a jerk, we're going to have nothing but dislike for you.

If i have a different point of view about the Prophecy ships then i'm baiting people here ?????
If i start a thread about what ships have the most beautiful designs in all the WC games then i'm baiting people here ?????

A thread about what ships have the most beautiful designs in all the Wc games is a banality ?????

Some replies have arguements, while others replies only try to attack me and insult me.
I started a thread with respect and i have been called TROLL and JERK... What kind of respect is that ???
 

LeHah

212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
MartySheen said:
Someone elses arguments, facts and evidence means nothing when it comes down to personel taste. Like i said above, you either like something or you dont.

Everyone here has respect for heavy's personal taste - it's his style of writing that's making people angry. Instead of coming in and saying "You know, I never cared for Prophecy because of these reasons..." and then listing them - he makes posts with caps lock and colors and attempts to justify his opinion ... by his father who reviews video games.

(Also - if this guy is rounding 40, how old is his videogame reviewing dad? Worse case scenario, his parents had this guy at 20 - so his dad is now 60 and reviewing video games?)

MartySheen said:
It was unpleasant LeHah. Loaf could have been polite and decent, (dare I say civilised?) towards heavy.

I agree it was unpleasent - but not because of LOAF. I don't know how he manages to keep his cool most of the time but heavy's posts would've brought the hammer down from me the moment I saw it, had I the powers of LOAF.

LOAF is trying his best to be as nice and logical about all this as he can be. To say otherwise just shows that you've not been around long enough, thats all. I'd suggest stepping aside and watching the fireworks that are bound to go off in this thread later today.

MartySheen said:
Isn't discussing different points of view on WC games what the CIC forums are for?

Amongst other things - but I think people should have the self-respect to make intelligent, responsible posts here. Would you have a discussion with someone and then scream at them when their opinion doesn't agree with yours? Heavy did that earlier; whats that say of him?

MartySheen said:
Whats' the point in having a forum if you cant say what you think without getting attacked/insulted for it. It puts people off.

For once, you and I are in complete agreement.

However, Heavy is the guilty party here. It's not what he said but how he said it that irked people.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
The only inmature here is the one that call me "TROLL" because he don't respect other people tastes

I'm a musician and i have never called "TROLL" to somebody that told me about other musical tastes.

I don't respect any opinion that is stated as poorly as yours was. You didn't back up your point, you cried like an offended twelve year old. Look at the rest of the thread -- people are talking perfectly intelligently about why they do and do not like Prophecy's artwork.

THAT'S INMATURE: TO INSULT SOMEBODY BECAUSE YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.

If the shoe fits - if you don't want to be called a troll, don't troll. It was clearly not intended as an insult, but as a proper label - I explained exactly why I thought you were a troll. Perhaps you could address those issues instead of protesting too much?

And yes, i had played all the games since i had a Sinclair ZX-81 (16 kbytes). I have played with Spectrum, Collecovision, Commodore 64, Amstrad, MSX, Master system, Nintendo 8 Bits, Commodore Amiga, Atari ST, Supernintendo, Megadrive, SegaCD, Nintendo 64, Saturn... All the games in all the systems.... yes i'm a lucky man
Is somebody old enough to remember games like "CODENAME MAT" or "3D STARSTRIKE" ????

Wow, all the games for those consoles. That's amazing - it must be tens if not hundreds of thousands of titles. As an amateur archivist of some small part of that pantheon, I would certainly love to see your collection.

But yes, we all grew up with those systems and those games - at least, I certainly did... there's also a younger generation of people who grew up with 3DOs and Playstations. I certainly have no ill will towards them for having been born later than I was. Having had an additional decade to think about the evil enemy triangles in Space Vikings gives one no special insight into ship design.

About the Alien Capital ship screenshot..... Is that a screenshot ???... That's a beautiful render (maybe from a video) but NOT a screenshot

A screenshot taken from a video is still a screenshot. For someone with an impossible mastery of all things video game, you're a little weak on terminology. Besides, this is a useless technicality for someone who is here to bitch about the ship *design*.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... Are you saying that the BARRACUDA design can be compared with the GIGER Designs for the Alien movie ????? AHAHAHAHAHAHAAH .......WHAT A JOKE !!!!!!!!!!

Uhm, no, you brought up Giger. I just pointed out that he has nothing to do with whether or not something looks 'organic'. The Alien aliens are really darned neat, but they're not the single universal example of pretty living things upon which everyone should base their artwork.

(Although, yes, I'm sure there's an H.R. Giger versus Syd Mead fight going on *right now* in some better equipped art community.)

I know the topic of age was already brought up by Chris - but do you really believe this guy is 39 now?

It doesn't seem like a big issue. Yes, his story is crazy and impossible... but on the internet we can all be whatever age we want. A number buys you no respect here -- a fifteen year old who makes a great point will always be the superior of someone who says he's thirty nine and doesn't.

Someone elses arguments, facts and evidence means nothing when it comes down to personel taste. Like i said above, you either like something or you dont.

I believe Chris has already explained why this is a load -- address his post, please, before you continue repeating yourself.

There is a very, very, very clear difference between Heavy intentionally ranting to start a fight and Major Striker having a similar position posted intelligently.

It was unpleasant LeHah. Loaf could have been polite and decent, (dare I say civilised?) towards heavy.

Heavy was just putting his point of view about the prophecy fighters across. Isn't discussing different points of view on WC games what the CIC forums are for?

What's the point in having a forum if you cant say what you think without getting attacked/insulted for it. It puts people off.

Eh, you're being generic. I know it's cool to attack the guy in charge, and I'm perfectly willing to defend my being unpleasant when justified (as I often and sometimes am, respectively)... but the post in question wasn't like that at all. I very patiently explained why he was wrong. I mean, you're being more of a public jerk towards me over this than I ever was to him. Of course, no one thinks about me -- my opinion doesn't matter, just the guy who hates Wing Commander... he should be given every opportunity to make his point!

This is a silly attack on power, not some legitimate defense of a poor mistreated user. I mean, what about *my* reply? Why should my opinion be censored for the sake of... I'm not even sure what the goal is. Because I'm too scary in my larger amount of experience here, because I'm better known, because I argue better, because I have a terrifying icon and title, I should... not post what I think and let other people who I disagree with travel undaunted? What would be the point of *that* forum? Everyone post one opinion, no one reply ever! A forum exists for *exactly* the kind of interaction Heavy and I had above.

It's sad that we've come to this. There was a time where it was more than okay to stand up in front of the flag and defend Wing Commander. The fact that we let people like this post at all - well beyond when they've lost any ability to argue their point (see Heavy's further posts above) - should be proof enough that anyone can express their opinions. We simply won't promise that we agree with or have some pre-established respect for what they say.
 
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