How many Bengals?

Aeronautico

Aeronautico

Rear Admiral
Curious: How many Bengals were there? There was:

Kyoto
Tiger's Claw
Eagle's Talon

How many and what names?
 
Per LOAF:

Bengals were produced at the Trojan IV Yards from 2619 to 2656 at a rate of one per year.

A total of 37 Bengals were built, broken down into 25 Block 1 ships (2619-2643) and 12 Block 2 ships (2644-2656).

The following are known Bengal class ships:
Beacontree
Bengal (Block 1, 2619)
Eagle's Talon (Block 2)
Exeter (Block 2)
Kipling (Block 2, 2645)
Kyoto
Tiger's Claw (Block 2, 2644)
Trafalgar (Block 2)
Wolfhound (Block 2).
 
This brings up something that has puzzled me.

If there were so many Bengals around, not to mention all the other ships Confed had here and there, then why was the loss of the Claw at K'tithrak Mang such a crushing blow? The general implication from the WC2 intro is that losing the Claw pretty much delayed Confed from winning in Enigma for 10 years. And Thrakhath seemed pretty confident that "without the Tiger's Claw, the humans are defenseless" or something like that. He said they would sweep through the defensless human colonies, and only the loss of Ghorar Khar seemed to slow him down.

Was Thrakhath being flippant and overconfident? Was he putting that much stock in the prowess of Blair and the other top pilots on the Claw? Was the Confed fleet extremely depleted at that point through losses and attrition (that is not the implication at the end of SM2...if anything, it seems like the disruption of the Sivar Eshrad ceremony has the Kilrathi on the run all across the Galaxy)

I'm just curious how one single Bengal carrier could have been the key to the entire Confederate defenses in an entire sector.
 
I'm guessing it comes down to fleet logistics.
You may have 37 odd Bengals, but this is Confed on the back of a lot of victories. Victories mean an expansion of territory and that means that more and more of your fleet has to be used simply to guard the territory you already have.

If the Claw was indeed the premier carrier, then i'd imagine its loss could well scupper a planned campaign.
 
Farbourne said:
If there were so many Bengals around, not to mention all the other ships Confed had here and there, then why was the loss of the Claw at K'tithrak Mang such a crushing blow? The general implication from the WC2 intro is that losing the Claw pretty much delayed Confed from winning in Enigma for 10 years. And Thrakhath seemed pretty confident that "without the Tiger's Claw, the humans are defenseless" or something like that. He said they would sweep through the defensless human colonies, and only the loss of Ghorar Khar seemed to slow him down.
Click to expand...
The way Thrakath's message reads, Blair's title of Heart of the Tiger is actually means Heart of the Tiger's Claw. As you should know Blair is actually supposed to be Wing Commander, or if you prefer Commander of Air Group, of the Tiger's Claw by that point. The implication he's both a exceptional pilot and CAG is carried on pretty much throughout the series.

The implication is Blair would have been able to get in a position where he would have located and destroyed the critical command and supply facility in the region aka Kithrak Mang. The loss of this base in turn would cripple Kilrathi operations in the sector much like the destruction of the critical facility in Venice did to operations in Vega.

Loss of the Tiger's Claw meant loss of the data they had aquired to be able to find Kithrak Mang, which certainly didn't help with successful conquest of the system. With logistics intact the Kilrathi could conduct larger operations then they would have been able to otherwise. Whether this make Tiger's Claw the equivalent of the carriers named USS Enterprise is a matter I'm not sure is truly confirmed one way or another.
 
Jebe said:
Loss of the Tiger's Claw would mean loss of the data they had aquired to be able to find Kithrak Mang, which extended the war.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. The location of the HQ was most likely known by many in Confed. The Claw was on a deep penetration raid to destroy it when it was taken out. Confed was probably not willing to risk another precious carrier on a deep penetration raid. In fact, we don't really see another deep raid like this till the Tarawa in 2667.
 
Farbourne said:
The general implication from the WC2 intro is that losing the Claw pretty much delayed Confed from winning in Enigma for 10 years. And Thrakhath seemed pretty confident that "without the Tiger's Claw, the humans are defenseless" or something like that. He said they would sweep through the defensless human colonies, and only the loss of Ghorar Khar seemed to slow him down.

Was Thrakhath being flippant and overconfident? Was he putting that much stock in the prowess of Blair and the other top pilots on the Claw? Was the Confed fleet extremely depleted at that point through losses and attrition (that is not the implication at the end of SM2...if anything, it seems like the disruption of the Sivar Eshrad ceremony has the Kilrathi on the run all across the Galaxy)

I'm just curious how one single Bengal carrier could have been the key to the entire Confederate defenses in an entire sector.
Click to expand...

Nobody says it did or did not, remember it was from a kilrathi's point of view, like a predator, he had seen this ship, "the tiger's claw", beating the odds and crushing the starbase at Vega, destroying his dreadnought, and stop a holy ritual, in his eyes this may be the most dangerous opponent, and it's top pilot some sort of superhuman ace that challenged them all by himself. Does not he reference the Tarawa as a ship he recognizes and hates as well in "end run"? He also goes to battle multiple times to fight with blair in person.

The loss of the tiger's claw itself cost them some moral(the "pride of the fleet" was lost(the claw was due to an early revision the biggest and most massive of the bengal series), and over a hundred fighters and support personel, why try it again if you made such a desperate failure, plus the possible treason of blair probably was not good for moral, and they were still waging war in the vega sector anyway, I'm pretty sure the concordia was not just sightseeing in enigma and the starbases in the enigma sector were not freshly built.
 
Curious: How many Bengals were there? There was:
Click to expand...

Short answer: we don't know. These are the ones which are named:

TCS Beacontree - mentioned in passing in Pilgrim Stars.
TCS Bengal - assumed 'class ship'.
TCS Eagle's Talon - the Tiger's Claw's doppleganger from the Wing Commander I & II Ultimate Strategy guide (Eagle's Talon pilots fly the missions at Hubble's Star and Hell's Kitchen).
TCS Exeter - either destroyed or saved in the first Super Wing Commander cutscene.
TCS Kipling - the Bengal launched after the Tiger's Claw, per Claw Marks.
TCS Tiger's Claw - if you don't know this one, you're in trouble.
TCS Trafalgar - Admiral Bergstrom's flagship from the Wing Commander Academy episode "Chain of Command".
TCS Wolfhound - part of the Operation Backlash fleet in End Run, said to be the Tiger's Claw's sistership.

We see several others in various cutscenes or at points where they aren't named -- there's at least one (maybe two?) destroyed at Pegasus at the beginning of the film, there's a Super Wing Commander cutscene where the Tiger's Claw is operating with three others, there's a reference to one being part of the Concordia's fleet in Pilgrim Stars... and then there's, arguably, the ship in the Armada introduction.

Bengals were produced at the Trojan IV Yards from 2619 to 2656 at a rate of one per year.

A total of 37 Bengals were built, broken down into 25 Block 1 ships (2619-2643) and 12 Block 2 ships (2644-2656).
Click to expand...

The problem with these numbers (and yes, I realize I'm arguing with my younger self) is that they're based only on a trend of one: we know the Tiger's Claw entered service in 2644 followed by the Kipling in 2645. It's not enough basis to limit anyone telling future stories to exactly 37 Bengals, no more and no less.

Kyoto
Click to expand...

The Kyoto has appeared on lists of Bengals since the beginning of time (after all, Bengals were the only known carrier when the reference first appeared!) -- but, in looking back, I'm pretty sure Wing Commander I just calls it a 'carrier'.

If there were so many Bengals around, not to mention all the other ships Confed had here and there, then why was the loss of the Claw at K'tithrak Mang such a crushing blow? The general implication from the WC2 intro is that losing the Claw pretty much delayed Confed from winning in Enigma for 10 years. And Thrakhath seemed pretty confident that "without the Tiger's Claw, the humans are defenseless" or something like that. He said they would sweep through the defensless human colonies, and only the loss of Ghorar Khar seemed to slow him down.

Was Thrakhath being flippant and overconfident? Was he putting that much stock in the prowess of Blair and the other top pilots on the Claw? Was the Confed fleet extremely depleted at that point through losses and attrition (that is not the implication at the end of SM2...if anything, it seems like the disruption of the Sivar Eshrad ceremony has the Kilrathi on the run all across the Galaxy)

I'm just curious how one single Bengal carrier could have been the key to the entire Confederate defenses in an entire sector.
Click to expand...

Well, it's a few things.

- One, there would never be that many ships *at a time*. It's one every year (and really, likely fewer than that) being sent off to join the fight. Ships are being destroyed as quickly--if not more quickly--then they're being built (that is, it's the difference between having 365 meals served one a day and having 365 meals in one day; the latter is an embarassment of riches, the other is just getting by).

- Obviously, Thrakhath *was* being flippant and overconfident... since he wasn't able to 'sweep through the Enigma Sector'. That's intentional, though; he lies to the Emperor about his chances in *all* of those cutscenes.

- The Kilrathi have assigned some particular status to Blair, presumably because of his rapid exploits in 2654-55. The Emperor specifically asks Thrakhath about him in that conversation and Thrakhath is ready with an answer. This seems kind of silly to us, I know, but I assume it fits with however Kilrathi society works (we know, for instance, that Thrakhath is the unquestioned 'best' Kilrathi fighter pilot; there may be a strong emphasis on the power of particular hero figures in their culture).

- I think the 'situation' in Enigma at that point is supposed to be stalemate -- and the Confederation has shot its bolt risking its best carrier on a deep penetration mission... and failed. Similarly, the Kilrathi believe they're going to break that stalemate with the new stealth fighters... and years of delays are going to kill that hope.

You may have 37 odd Bengals, but this is Confed on the back of a lot of victories. Victories mean an expansion of territory and that means that more and more of your fleet has to be used simply to guard the territory you already have.
Click to expand...

This is worth mentioning; Action Stations claims the Confederation has 'thousands' of planets. 37 carrier task forces, even if they exist at the same time, stretches very thin.

The way Thrakath's message reads, Blair's title of Heart of the Tiger is actually means Heart of the Tiger's Claw. As you should know Blair is actually supposed to be Wing Commander, or if you prefer Commander of Air Group, of the Tiger's Claw by that point. The implication he's both a exceptional pilot and CAG is carried on pretty much throughout the series.
Click to expand...

He's not the Wing Commander yet; he has been told he will take over after Halcyon returns to Earth, but the actual change hasn't taken place yet when the ship is destroyed.

I don't think so. The location of the HQ was most likely known by many in Confed. The Claw was on a deep penetration raid to destroy it when it was taken out. Confed was probably not willing to risk another precious carrier on a deep penetration raid. In fact, we don't really see another deep raid like this till the Tarawa in 2667.
Click to expand...

I think they're fundamentally different types of raids; End Run was a suicide mission aimed at diverting Kilrathi attention from another operation... K'Tithrak Mang was the type of operation the Tiger's Claw was designed for, operating behind enemy lines with full capacity for an extended period (and of course we do see a deep raid like that before the Tarawa - the Concordia undertakes the same mission at the end of Wing Commander II.)

As for losing the location of K'Tithrak Mang... yes, there's that too. Remember we have to track a Ralatha in WC2 to discover a route to K'Tithrak Mang in Wing Commander II. It's presumably not so much a matter of not knowing where the star system is as it is not knowing how to approach from behind the lines to pass around whatever fortifications the Kilrathi have 'straight through'.
 
As the early missions in WC2 with you patroling in a Broadsword establish vessels need to send out patrol craft to determine if jump points have been used recently. The traitor giving the Concordia's coordinates further support they do not inherently know where vessels are within the system.

Given I recall the normal adjective for K'Tithrak Mang as "mythical", all the trouble you have to nail down the facility in WC2, and the Tiger's Claw didn't actually find it I see no reason to believe Confed knows where it is. Seems as how by definition a supply depot is behind the lines, I personally don't see the need to complicate the scenario.

Nor does "we ran into a little resistance, we're going to surrender faster then the French" sound even vaguely like the way Confed should react to the loss of the Tiger's Claw. Not having the capability to spare with the obligations of the overall war effort is one thing. Defeatism that makes the French at their worst look like the USMC by comparison regarding a strategically critical target is something else.

Considering it was originally a CVU if they weren't losing them right and left, the reality is a lot of them might be more properly designated as a transport for shuttling fighters around much like Halsey wanted the CVEs for in the Pacific. Unless they have transports docking with major facilities that recharge their fighter wings, there's not a lot of other options to solving that fundamental problem inherent to a large scale carrier war.
 
That's what I meant. There was a history of Midway-class capships, but there was on written history for the Bengal-class?
 
Lt.Overload said:
That's what I meant. There was a history of Midway-class capships, but there was on written history for the Bengal-class?
Click to expand...

You have to read my post in the thread at http://www.crius.net/zone/showthread.php?t=25084 There are not official histories written about the vast majority of ships in WC universe, nor should we expect there to be. Even if we did have some fancy elaborate one about the Bengal (hey, we do, it's in the Confederation Handbook), we wouldn't necessarily know something like how many were produced.
 
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