Future of Wing Commander

[Mjr. Whoopass]

I agree with you Lunitari that a DVD-ROM interactive game/movie would be the ultimate for the next Wing Commander sequel. I would be very dissapointed if a new Wing Commander game came out and it wasn't an interactive movie. It really engages the player when in your imagination, you in a sense "become" a character who's choices effect how the game turns out. Also, how can you get better graphics than movie footage? I wonder why there isn't more frequent use of movies rather than the digital graphics that are used on many games such as Starlancer.

 

[ChrisReid]

There was no need for that.

There's no need to get offended either. If I wanted to give you a hard time, it'd be a lot different than that.

I neither compared them to the last WC game nor did I give a time frame. Simply stated that they are doing better recently, perhaps not as good as they once were but they seemed to be on an up swing. And someone thinks it's a good idea to make them because they keep coming out and are being reviewed fairly well.

You said you were surprised a new WC game hadn't been announced, so new space sims struggling to reach 10% of your average Wing Commander sales is entirely relevant. You also specified "recent," and I talked about the entire last five years, which includes "recent." Games "coming out" are irrelevant, because a greater proportion are being made outside the countries where EA has a presence and where development costs are much lower than would be necessary for an EA game. Reviews are subjective. I can show you new space sims that have poor scores too. At this point, a space sim moving a couple hundred thousand units would be a big surprise, and an EA game doing less than half a million would be a similar shock. So no, I'm not surprised a new WC game hasn't been announced yet. I'm quite sure one will be sooner or later, but the recent market conditions haven't encouraged that announcement.

Personally, I would be very excited about another interactive Wing Commander. I know FMV is a thing of the past, but you're right Chris...Wing Commander did it so well. Chris Roberts created such a compelling story behind the gameplay. Wing 3 was great, but Wing 4 was the pinnacle, I think. When he left Origin and someone else picked up Wing Commander Prophecy, the interactive movie portion of the game sucked. Now that DVD-ROM has become standard equipment on computers, I would truly love to see the next generation of interactive Wing Commander games. That would be sweet.

It's not about the prevalence of DVDs, though an amazing number of computer users today still lack DVD drives. It's not even about FMV, because games can more cheaply pack in the story with computer generated movies now. One of the problems is the huge lack of patients for watching video clips. People actually complained about having to sit and watch the videos in Wing Commander 4. You can partially thank those people for the more subdued video scenes in Prophecy. A huge portion of the market today wants nonstop action. They want the story overlayed while they're flying around shooting.

It really engages the player when in your imagination, you in a sense "become" a character who's choices effect how the game turns out. Also, how can you get better graphics than movie footage?

Oh.. maybe.. computer generated footage? All the big cavernous sets in Wing Commander 4/Prophecy were computer generated. There are limitations on film that make computer generated stuff much more practical. Wing Commander 1 and 2 are great examples of compelling storylines where you "become" a character and determine the outcome of the game without interactive choices in the cutscenes.

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

One of the problems is the huge lack of patients for watching video clips. People actually complained about having to sit and watch the videos in Wing Commander 4. You can partially thank those people for the more subdued video scenes in Prophecy. A huge portion of the market today wants nonstop action. They want the story overlayed while they're flying around shooting.

Well, I must be in the minority then. I found myself playing through certain missions in WCIV mainly to see the movie footage. I'm usually a hardcore nightmare fan, but when I started having trouble with a certain mission, I was so exited to see the next movie spot that I put the difficulty on rookie so I could continue with the story. I left it on veteran for the rest of my first time through the game because I enjoyed the interactive movies so much. Even after playing through once on Nightmare, I wanted to play through AGAIN just so I could see the different choices. Others seem to be in agreement based upon the guy (AD I think) who was working on a dedicated WCIV movie based upon movie clips only and NO action- and all the people on these forums interested in watching it. He said he had friends who wanted to see the movie, but weren't interested in playing all the space combat. Also I seem to remember Tolwyn being interviewed.. uh.. I mean Malcolm McDowell , he said that he played through some of the game to watch the movie clips, but soon grew tired of getting shot down in the game in order to get to them. The strong effect of players becoming involved is seen in interviews with various actors who say their children's friends and people in public see them as being those characters. Mark Hammil is Chris Blair to me more than he's Luke Skywalker- likewise for the other characters (except Catscratch who will prob. always be the guy from Brotherhood of the Wolf- probably his coolest character)

 

[Lunitari]

I am in the minority as well, I guess. I will admit that I was kinda disappointed that Roberts used the same engine for WC4, but it was refined. It did look better, better explosions, etc. The video sequences were just so cool. I think that Wing 4 turned out to be the game that Roberts wanted Wing 3 to be. Like Mjr. Whoopass, I also could not wait for the next video sequence. It really gave you the feeling that you were involved in a true sci-fi epic.

 

[Penta2]

Well, one thing to remember is that FMV is expensive. How much did WC3/WC4 cost? That trend is a goner.

More likely, I think, is stuff a la Deus Ex, using game graphics instead of FMV Voice actors cost a lot less, for one thing.

 

[AD]

the guy (AD I think) who was working on a dedicated WCIV movie based upon movie clips only and NO action

Yep, that would be me. Your statement isn't entirely true though, because I am includind action, or space combat if you would rather. Howerer it is in video form, edited from video capture and adding music after.

On the subject at hand, Secret Ops already is an attempt at a wing commander game with the story being told almost entirely in the game engine. While I agree that Live action FMV is passé, it must be noted that the rising costs of producing entirely prerendered video (a la final fantasy: spirits within) has been rising to an almost inhibitive level (that movie almost single handedly folded squaresoft).

As long as there was a good story with no less content then say wc2 or wc1-so2 I would be happy with story sequences being rendered in-engine. Considering the quality of the Graphics in Half-life 2 on a high end card, and the fact that any game that is just starting development probably wouldn't see the light of day for at least 2 years, the final product would have the potential to not only be quite convincing, but engrossing and beautiful. Not only that, in wc2 (and one) you could ignore most of the story if you really wanted to. That would seem like a fair compromise for those (whom I consider) silly enough to just want a straight action game.

 

[ChrisReid]

I am in the minority as well, I guess. I will admit that I was kinda disappointed that Roberts used the same engine for WC4, but it was refined. It did look better, better explosions, etc. The video sequences were just so cool. I think that Wing 4 turned out to be the game that Roberts wanted Wing 3 to be. Like Mjr. Whoopass, I also could not wait for the next video sequence. It really gave you the feeling that you were involved in a true sci-fi epic.

I think almost everyone here is in the minority as it relates to this topic. I really like the WC3 engine. Despite its lack of modern 3d accelerated effects and low resolution, I think it still stands up remarkably well ten years later. I really think its held up better than just about every single graphical engine its age. (I've played WC4 PSX on a PS2 had had people ask me when the game was coming out).

 

[TopGun]

No, not really. Interactive movie stuff really just turned out to be a mid 90s fad. Wing Commander did it exceptionally well, but it's no longer really something that excites game players enough to build into games. Branching storylines that Wing Commander 1 pioneered are very much alive and well in certain games today though, and that's definitely possible.

Cool

 

[dextorboot]

There's no need to get offended either. If I wanted to give you a hard time, it'd be a lot different than that.

Indeed. However, it was out of nowhere and there's no need for that.

Games "coming out" are irrelevant, because a greater proportion are being made outside the countries where EA has a presence and where development costs are much lower than would be necessary for an EA game. Reviews are subjective. I can show you new space sims that have poor scores too. At this point, a space sim moving a couple hundred thousand units would be a big surprise, and an EA game doing less than half a million would be a similar shock.

True enough. I tend to forget that we're talking about EA.

Although, there are several EA games I can think of right away that sell less than half a million and yet that was enough to come out with sequels in some cases.

Reviews are subjective, but I figured that was understood and didn't need stating since our own like of games is subjective as well. And it's not really an accomplishment to find bad scores for any genre. Most genres have good and bad games.

 

[luminon]

No, not really. Interactive movie stuff really just turned out to be a mid 90s fad. Wing Commander did it exceptionally well, but it's no longer really something that excites game players enough to build into games. Branching storylines that Wing Commander 1 pioneered are very much alive and well in certain games today though, and that's definitely possible.

I don't know if wing commander players would feel the same, but I know that command and conquer players were really disappointed that there was no FMV in C&C Generals (except the small news clips that were added in the zero hour expansion). If you go on C&C forums there are threads that ask why generals is disliked so much among the fans and the answer is frequently "it had no FMV like the original games." I know I would certainly be disappointed if a new wing commander game was released and it had no video. That was one of the things that drew me to the games and got me addicted to the storyline.

 

[Penta2]

The identity of C&C is more wrapped up in FMV. The original C&C was a massive showcase for good gaming FMV. Every C&C game bar Generals has used FMV extensively.

WC, though, harks back to the lovingly-hand-drawn era of the 80s-90s. Where you saw damn good art as just the non-flight sections of the game. More than a few games in that era had art one could respectably put up as a print on one's wall.

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

Well, one thing to remember is that FMV is expensive. How much did WC3/WC4 cost? That trend is a goner.

It's true that FMV can be expensive. I enjoyed the great actors that were featured on WC3+4, and I'm sure it was more enjoyable to watch Malcolm McDowell, John Rhys-Davies, Mark Hammill, and all the other all-stars acting and reacting to my choices. If EA decides to make another WC and looks at the costs involved in WC3 and 4, that would probably deter them. I don't think it HAS to be expensive though. I would be happy even to see good actors who's faces I've never seen before acting in the parts. There's no shortage of VERY talented "starving" actors who would work almost for free if it meant the chance to make SOME money doing what they love as well as having something as prestigious as WC games to add to their resume. Though I preferred some of the real sets that were made for WC4, I didn't have much of a problem with the more frequent green screen filming used in WC3 which could also cut down on costs.

 

[Death]

WC3 only cost a few million dollars total, as I recall.

A lot of the $12M for WC4's production costs was in the physical sets, like for example the shuttle cockpit set used for the trip out from Bluepoint Station with Blair and Maniac. Using "B" grade actors wouldn't change that, and even the no-names aren't free/cheap.

As for the prestige of WC, there are very few, outside the fandom, who care about games. I mean, who do you think J. Random Moviegoer will remember more: Dean Wormer from "Animal House", or Fark from "Privateer 2"? The WC moviemaking that matters is WCM, a movie that barely broke even on box-office income, as I recall, and was thumped from one side of the globe to the other by professional reviewers (as opposed to the screaming fans, about whom the world has little concern).

 

[Mjr. Whoopass]

As for the prestige of WC, there are very few, outside the fandom, who care about games.

That is true that few care about games outside of fandom. When I mentioned how a no-name starving actor would love to have it on their resume, they would have to let the casting crew know the significance of it. For instance: Starring role in Wing Commander VI; part of a series which featured actors such as John Rhys-Davies, Mark Hammil etc.... Even the famous actors include Wing Commander on their list of credits.

 

[Aron Figaro]

A Note From Me

Well...here's my take as a developer with a space sim mostly in the back of his head right now:

Why we WON'T see another WC soon:

1) It's not a good game by EA's standards. They only want to make what they consider blockbusters - lacklustre games that parallel mass media initiatives. They're not going to do anything innovative until a change in direction comes along. Maybe if Star Wars Episode 3 does well, then Lucas does a kick-ass Star Wars space sim that makes X-Wing Alliance look like a bad game (it wasn't) THEN there MIGHT be a WC...maybe. If not, they'd probably licence it out for a few hundred thousand to somebody interested, for one game.

2) As somewhat stated above...space sims haven't hit it big yet. Maybe X3 will, but probably not. What we need is a bunch of really star developers to come up with another big space sim out of the blue. Something different, not like all of the freetrader games out there right now. A military sim of some kind...maybe a hybrid, Descent-esque game, maybe a Star Wars game, but it'll have some roots in the current market, but it'll give enough of a platform...

3) There aren't good enough developers to really make WC shine right now, at least not where my eyes have been looking. Maybe if they brought in Roberts again, or even Niven or another big name in sci-fi (could be almost ANYONE) to write it they could pull it off...maybe.

4) There's no room for big-budget computer games right now.

Why we WILL see some good, low-budget space sims:

1) The market is stagnant and it has low barriers to entry. Any good team can make a decent space sim engine - maybe not (probably not) Newtonian physics, but they can turn out a decent game with almost no competition.

2) The little companies seem to have the best guys right now. Example: The RPG market. Who's got the all-star team? Not Blizzard. Not Bioware. Not whoever the heck is running Everquest (they're a bunch of nobodies to an extreme now)...etc. They're all at little developers, like Irrational (Freedom Force), NCSoft (Guild Wars, by the creators of Diablo and Diablo 2), and other little firms...not sure where all the big guys in the space industry have gone (most probably retired) but the good ones that are left are definitely not with the big names...barring Digital Anvil, who hopefully will get the HECK away from Micro$oft before their reputation goes down any further.

3) Because eventually, I'm going to release one.

 

[Thorn]

Not anytime soon, but I'd like to think eventually.

Because:

1) Your typical WC pilot forms an emotional bond with his/her NPC wingmen, the carrier, feels grief at the loss of storyline characters, feels outrage at enemy atrocities. This "immersion" was and still is lacking in other genres. Arguably this special recipe is in addition to any influence from FMV cutscenes. Weren't people more upset over Bluehair's tragic loss of Angel than mourning over which chick you didn't get in the latter sequel. Where is the compelling dramatic single player campaign from a combat flight sim? There ain't any. I'm not saying this is uniquely exclusive and can't be duplicated elsewhere, but WC kept hitting it out of the park time after time. And since then? There is The Sims I suppose. Players are attached to their creations, but a sim isn't going to go down in a sudden shocking blaze of glory.

2) There's something about a combat space sim that capitalizes on bleeding edge eye candy in a way the other genres simply don't. Maybe its dramatic contrast of shiny metal against inky black space. Maybe non-fiction military sims fall short, lacking any plasma weapons. I do know that during the last round of all shiny new DX9, OpenGL and propietary GPU extensions, many people were looking to the newest space games to showcase them best.

Wing Commander was popular, successful and retains a fan base even today because it repeatedly hit on a winning formula in a huge way. All myopic corporate mentalities, closed closing and failing studios, budgetary excesses aside; the desire for that formula remains. Wing Commander fully deserves the status of boom and bust, cyclic game genre. It will be back, in all likelihood as a reverent homage, in all but name only, from anybody but Electronic Arts.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

3) There aren't good enough developers to really make WC shine right now, at least not where my eyes have been looking. Maybe if they brought in Roberts again, or even Niven or another big name in sci-fi (could be almost ANYONE) to write it they could pull it off...maybe.

You must have really enjoyed the Wing Commander movie (Mr. Roberts' only script credit)

Seriously, though, Jerry Pournelle claimed in one of his Byte columns years ago that he had a good 'Privateer' story... I can't believe Baen never followed up on that.

2) The little companies seem to have the best guys right now. Example: The RPG market. Who's got the all-star team? Not Blizzard. Not Bioware. Not whoever the heck is running Everquest (they're a bunch of nobodies to an extreme now)...etc. They're all at little developers, like Irrational (Freedom Force), NCSoft (Guild Wars, by the creators of Diablo and Diablo 2), and other little firms...not sure where all the big guys in the space industry have gone (most probably retired) but the good ones that are left are definitely not with the big names...barring Digital Anvil, who hopefully will get the HECK away from Micro$oft before their reputation goes down any further.

Digital Anvil is a wholly owned Microsoft studio. It can't "get away" any more than ones foot might succesfully get away from ones leg.

In terms of sales, the first company you listed pretty much controls the "RPG market".

 

[Dahan]

I think that we all would love to see a rebirth of the Wing Commander games, sure the mods release by other people are good. But it wont be the same the proper game which we played created by the developers
All we have is our dreams and our inspirations we hope to achieve

 

[Bladewhirler]

correction:

steltek and nephilim are NOT the same group. the steltek are not your enemies in prophecy.

Are you sure? From what source is that information (not doubting, just asking)? When the bugs started to hurl green stuff at me out of egg-like ships I started to get suspicious. During the final scene, when that giant ship emerged from the gate, with its tentacle-like arms with green lights on the ends, I was sure. They can be noone else then the steltek. In Privateer they were displayed as an ancient powerful race which withdrew from this part of the galaxy for unknown reasons. The bugs used to fight the Kilrathi like aeons ago and then left with the promise to return someday. It looks obvious to me that they are the same.

 

[Sarty]

You are mixing up 3 different races on that one. The Steltek are an ancient race that withdrew from this part of the galaxy. The Mantu fought the Kilrathi before us and would have defeated the Kilrathi had they not suddenly withdrew with no apparent reason. The Mantu are part of the reason behind project Hari and the Hakaga class super carriers. The Nephilim have never ventured into this part of the galaxy as far as we know. Their gate in the Kilrah system was their first incursion. The Nephilim are supposedly the creatures described in the Kilrathi propechy Kn'thrak, hence the games name.