SeetherAce
Spaceman
I know the Telemon tragedy was, well, a tragedy, but don't you think humanity should've honed it's fighting skills to prepare for the arrival of the Mantu(I call them the Mantu 'cause that's what the Cats called 'em)?
Do you think Tolwyn was right?
- Thread starter SeetherAce
- Start date
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
We've had the Tolwyn conversation like six times this month. Look for threads like "Tolwyn Essay".
The Kilrathi didn't call the Nephilim Mantu -- the Mantu are something different... check your Prophecy ICIS manual.
The Kilrathi didn't call the Nephilim Mantu -- the Mantu are something different... check your Prophecy ICIS manual.
SeetherAce
Spaceman
I did read the ICIS manual. The Nephilem is their CODE NAME. C-O-D-E N-A-M-E. The Nephilem are actually giants mentioned in the Bible; the "ancient Terran biblical texts" Zero mentioned have nothing to do with Wing Commander. The ICIS guide does mention the Mantu. About 250 years before the Kilrathi war, a race of paranoid alien travelers entered Kilrathi space. These were the Mantu. The Kilrathi brutally attacked the Mantu, who fought back. The Kilrathi managed to repel the Mantu. The Kilrathi then feared the Mantu's return, and if you read The Heart of the Tiger novelization, in the prologue, Thrakath and the Emperor are planning to wipe out the Terrans so the Kilrathi can prepare for the invasion of their ancient foe. Read it.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Nephilim is their code name (although I don't think this is stated in the ICIS manual... it's from the WCP Guide) -- but they are *not* the Mantu. This is stated in the ICIS manual... "read it".
The Mantu were a race the Kilrathi fought quite a while ago -- and when they didn't win the war, they demonized them, much as they're doing to mankind today. They're *not* the species we encounter in Prophecy.
The Mantu were a race the Kilrathi fought quite a while ago -- and when they didn't win the war, they demonized them, much as they're doing to mankind today. They're *not* the species we encounter in Prophecy.
LOAF's right, the Mantu are a completely different race altogether. The Nephilim are, theoretically (based on what I remember from the hundreds of discussions we've all been through on this), closer to the gallatic core. At the very least, they are from space not remotely close to Terran or Kilrathi territory. (This is all of our most recent guess, due to the fact they were forced to use wormhole technology.)
The Mantu, on the other hand, are close to Kilrathi held space, and simply pulled back to "fight another foe", instead of spending their efforts on the Kilrathi.
The Mantu, on the other hand, are close to Kilrathi held space, and simply pulled back to "fight another foe", instead of spending their efforts on the Kilrathi.
I'd say that there's a good chance that, due to the emphasis in the story on the Kilrathi doomsday scenario, the Nephilim are somehow related to the ancient Kilrathi legend (or at least Origin intended them to be - given the break in publishing WC games, who knows what they'll turn out to be if another WC game is released?).
The fact that they first popped up in the Kilrah system is definitely a point in favor of that.
Of course, the big problem with that theory is that if this race did indeed visit the Kilrathi several thousand years ago, then they haven't advanced that far technologically. Humanity has only been in space for a few centuries, and is already able to hold its own in battles with them.
The Nephilim would have to be extremely stagnant, technology-wise.
The fact that they first popped up in the Kilrah system is definitely a point in favor of that.
Of course, the big problem with that theory is that if this race did indeed visit the Kilrathi several thousand years ago, then they haven't advanced that far technologically. Humanity has only been in space for a few centuries, and is already able to hold its own in battles with them.
The Nephilim would have to be extremely stagnant, technology-wise.
Here's a theory that might explain it...
Granted, there are probably better ones out there, including some posted to this same board in the past.
Nonetheless...
The Nephilim did indeed visit Kilrah in the distant past. What they found was a highly contentious race that, after profiling, was decided would never pose a threat to the Nephilim (due to longstanding theories on the superiority of Nephilim culture over certain other culture types).
The Nephilim decide to take advantage of this. They encouraged Kilrathi aggressiveness in order to create a highly militaristic state (there are more than likely no significant technologically advanced cultures in the region at the time). Any possible competition for the Nephilim that emerges in the area will eventually have to deal with the Kilrathi, and given the nature of the Kilrathi, the destruction of Kilrah (a tectonically unstable planet) is a very effective way to deal with them. Any race that can destroy a planet is a potential rival to the Nephilim, and the Nephilim will want to be aware of any races in the area that might match their power so that the rivals can be dealt with. They leave the prophecy with the Kilrathi to encourage the Kilrathi to cause problems with the locals (since the prophecy mentions good things happening if the Kilrathi defeat all of their enemies), and leave.
Several millenia later, a Col. Christopher Blair, from the Terran Confederation Navy, and one of the few individuals that even the Kilrathi have a healthy respect for, drops a bomb on Kilrah that destroys the planet. Sensors buried far beneath the planet are activated in the death throes of Kilrah, and send a message to the Nephilim. They receive the message, realize a potential rival is at hand, and take steps to deal with this threat.
The biggest problem that the Nephilim have also stems from one of their racial advantages. The Nephilim have a hive-mind mentality. Organization and order are second nature to them. Unfortunately, the creativity that inspires technological advances is not. The vast majority of their advances to date have been acquired by theft and/or the conquest of the inventors. This is one reason why the Nephilim would be worried about a threat that might not appear for several thousand years (since the Nephilim may very well be in the exact same state that they were in when they visited Kilrah).
Unfortunately, it appears that they may have underestimated the resourcefulness of their future opponents. The humans have advanced further technologically than the Nephilim thought possible in the time at hand (as they discover when their first battle fleet is repulsed by a single carrier).
Currently, the Nephilim are attempting to keep the humans occupied while the Nephilim find out how things have changed while they've been gone. While the second battlefleet, based out of the wormhole in Proxima (is that Sol or Vega sector? Where's my map when I need it...) keeps the attention of the humans, smaller groups of ships perform recon and analysis in the other three sectors that odd energy traces have been detected in (Kilrah - K'sk'taq system, M'shrak - Hhallas system, and Epsilon - Valgard system).
I probably forgot to mention a couple of things, but that's most of it right there.
Its a little silly (setting up for threats that won't emerge for millenia?), but it does fit, after a fashion. Feel free to pick it apart, comment on it, or butcher it.
Granted, there are probably better ones out there, including some posted to this same board in the past.
Nonetheless...
The Nephilim did indeed visit Kilrah in the distant past. What they found was a highly contentious race that, after profiling, was decided would never pose a threat to the Nephilim (due to longstanding theories on the superiority of Nephilim culture over certain other culture types).
The Nephilim decide to take advantage of this. They encouraged Kilrathi aggressiveness in order to create a highly militaristic state (there are more than likely no significant technologically advanced cultures in the region at the time). Any possible competition for the Nephilim that emerges in the area will eventually have to deal with the Kilrathi, and given the nature of the Kilrathi, the destruction of Kilrah (a tectonically unstable planet) is a very effective way to deal with them. Any race that can destroy a planet is a potential rival to the Nephilim, and the Nephilim will want to be aware of any races in the area that might match their power so that the rivals can be dealt with. They leave the prophecy with the Kilrathi to encourage the Kilrathi to cause problems with the locals (since the prophecy mentions good things happening if the Kilrathi defeat all of their enemies), and leave.
Several millenia later, a Col. Christopher Blair, from the Terran Confederation Navy, and one of the few individuals that even the Kilrathi have a healthy respect for, drops a bomb on Kilrah that destroys the planet. Sensors buried far beneath the planet are activated in the death throes of Kilrah, and send a message to the Nephilim. They receive the message, realize a potential rival is at hand, and take steps to deal with this threat.
The biggest problem that the Nephilim have also stems from one of their racial advantages. The Nephilim have a hive-mind mentality. Organization and order are second nature to them. Unfortunately, the creativity that inspires technological advances is not. The vast majority of their advances to date have been acquired by theft and/or the conquest of the inventors. This is one reason why the Nephilim would be worried about a threat that might not appear for several thousand years (since the Nephilim may very well be in the exact same state that they were in when they visited Kilrah).
Unfortunately, it appears that they may have underestimated the resourcefulness of their future opponents. The humans have advanced further technologically than the Nephilim thought possible in the time at hand (as they discover when their first battle fleet is repulsed by a single carrier).
Currently, the Nephilim are attempting to keep the humans occupied while the Nephilim find out how things have changed while they've been gone. While the second battlefleet, based out of the wormhole in Proxima (is that Sol or Vega sector? Where's my map when I need it...) keeps the attention of the humans, smaller groups of ships perform recon and analysis in the other three sectors that odd energy traces have been detected in (Kilrah - K'sk'taq system, M'shrak - Hhallas system, and Epsilon - Valgard system).
I probably forgot to mention a couple of things, but that's most of it right there.
Its a little silly (setting up for threats that won't emerge for millenia?), but it does fit, after a fashion. Feel free to pick it apart, comment on it, or butcher it.
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
It's not too bad but one thing strikes me as being rather far-fetched: That the Nephilim knew in advance that the Kilrathi will be defeated by the destruction of Kilrah. Of course, there's the "defeaning thunder" from the prophecy but still I think that was just to make it seem mythtical to the player.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Not so...
The story goes that the Star Gods visited the Kilrathi thousands of years ago, and that they found them 'unworth' of testing... and so they promised to return when the Kilrathi had either
Proved themselves to be warriors, and be worth of fighting the Nephilim.
or
Been defeated and proved themselves useless.
The latter is what occured <G>
The story goes that the Star Gods visited the Kilrathi thousands of years ago, and that they found them 'unworth' of testing... and so they promised to return when the Kilrathi had either
Proved themselves to be warriors, and be worth of fighting the Nephilim.
or
Been defeated and proved themselves useless.
The latter is what occured <G>
I figure the 'destruction of Kilrah' scenario would be something like this. The Nephilim look at Kilrah and realize the planet is tectonicly unstable. They look at the Kilrathi, and realize that probably the only way to stop them once they get their ire up would be some form of genocide (the Mantu are apparently an exception, but I figure the Mantu were probably able to use a 'sledgehammer on a fly' approach to the problem and scared the cats off - not that the cats would fess up to it, of course... And if it hadn't been for the appearence of the hairless apes, the Kilrathi would probably have taken another stab at the Mantu eventually). The easiest way to initiate mass genocide on a race with an unstable home world is to encourage the instability, resulting in the destruction of the world.
Ergo, when the cats are eventually defeated, their planet will more than likely be destroyed in the process.
Its kind of like figuring out how to keep the enemy on the far side of the river in wartime. Sure, you could defend each and every bridge if you wanted. Or you could blow the bridges up, and make it much more difficult for the enemy to reach you.
Same idea with Kilrah, only on a much larger scale.
The Nephilim don't know for certain that the Kilrathi will be defeated in this fashion, but they are able to make an educated guess.
Ergo, when the cats are eventually defeated, their planet will more than likely be destroyed in the process.
Its kind of like figuring out how to keep the enemy on the far side of the river in wartime. Sure, you could defend each and every bridge if you wanted. Or you could blow the bridges up, and make it much more difficult for the enemy to reach you.
Same idea with Kilrah, only on a much larger scale.
The Nephilim don't know for certain that the Kilrathi will be defeated in this fashion, but they are able to make an educated guess.
Junior: Why would the Nephilim assume that in order to defeat the Kilrathi, the would be conquerors (us) would have to destroy the planet?
If the Nephilim assume themselves to be superior to other species, why would they bother turning the Kilrathi into their pawns? Their self perceived superiority ought to be enough to deal with any challengers.
Also the cultural superiority theorem discourages the idea that the Nephilim would be willing to absorb the technology/tactics of defeated foes. What need would "superior" Nephilim have for the devices of "inferior" societies?
If the Nephilim assume themselves to be superior to other species, why would they bother turning the Kilrathi into their pawns? Their self perceived superiority ought to be enough to deal with any challengers.
Also the cultural superiority theorem discourages the idea that the Nephilim would be willing to absorb the technology/tactics of defeated foes. What need would "superior" Nephilim have for the devices of "inferior" societies?
Well...
Western Democracy is superior to Nazi Fascism, but that didn't keep us from looting the German rocket program after World War 2.
In addition, while the Nephilim may consider themselves superior to the Kilrathi, they don't know who or what will be defeating them in the future. They are superior to the Kilrathi, but not necessarily to the race that puts the Kilrathi down.
And the destruction of Kilrah theory works like this.
The Kilrathi are a persistant enough race that you're probably going to have to deal with racial genocide to get them to stop. This is a race that stumbles over that odd human word 'Surrender' (WC3), remember. In order to clear out Kilrah, you have two choices. You can either land troops and fight with them, or you can take advantage of some acknowledged problems with the planet's structure (mentioned in WC3, and the only reason the T-Bomb was able to work on Kilrah as it did), and blow the planet up (the Hiroshima approach).
Now which would you rather do?
Now on the odd chance that you're feeling sorry for the Kilrathi population, and actually devise a way to land a significant quantity of troops and keep casualties small enough to make it more worthwhile to do so, also keep in mind that the Nephilim probably don't have your concerns, particularly if one or both of the fleets in WCP and SO are 'throwaway' fleets to keep Confed distracted (a theory that's advanced in the SO fiction, and adopted into my post).
Western Democracy is superior to Nazi Fascism, but that didn't keep us from looting the German rocket program after World War 2.
In addition, while the Nephilim may consider themselves superior to the Kilrathi, they don't know who or what will be defeating them in the future. They are superior to the Kilrathi, but not necessarily to the race that puts the Kilrathi down.
And the destruction of Kilrah theory works like this.
The Kilrathi are a persistant enough race that you're probably going to have to deal with racial genocide to get them to stop. This is a race that stumbles over that odd human word 'Surrender' (WC3), remember. In order to clear out Kilrah, you have two choices. You can either land troops and fight with them, or you can take advantage of some acknowledged problems with the planet's structure (mentioned in WC3, and the only reason the T-Bomb was able to work on Kilrah as it did), and blow the planet up (the Hiroshima approach).
Now which would you rather do?
Now on the odd chance that you're feeling sorry for the Kilrathi population, and actually devise a way to land a significant quantity of troops and keep casualties small enough to make it more worthwhile to do so, also keep in mind that the Nephilim probably don't have your concerns, particularly if one or both of the fleets in WCP and SO are 'throwaway' fleets to keep Confed distracted (a theory that's advanced in the SO fiction, and adopted into my post).
I think your example about democracy v fascism is a bit off the mark. I don't think the Allies considered the Germans to be some subhuman species. When I refer to cultural superiority I think the best example is China prior to the Opium Wars. Prior to circa 1840 the Chinese considered foreigners to be barbarians. It didn't really matter that the "barbarians" had better technology, the Chinese felt their culture to be superior and that was the be all to end all. If you say the Nephilim think they are superior then they are more likely to reflect Dynastic China.
If there is a power strong enough to defeat the Kilrathi, and also theoretically possesses the means to destroy a planet, what need would that power have to completely wipe out the Kilrathi? Surely they have the means to secure victory without resorting to such drastic measures?
If the Nephilim want to use the Kilrathi as some kind of early warning against a dangerous force - why would they select the primitive Kilrathi? Also why take such a secretive approach? Why not bring the Kilrathi under direct Nephilim supervision - that way the Kilrathi would still bear the brunt of any hostile force, but not develop into potential threat?
If there is a power strong enough to defeat the Kilrathi, and also theoretically possesses the means to destroy a planet, what need would that power have to completely wipe out the Kilrathi? Surely they have the means to secure victory without resorting to such drastic measures?
If the Nephilim want to use the Kilrathi as some kind of early warning against a dangerous force - why would they select the primitive Kilrathi? Also why take such a secretive approach? Why not bring the Kilrathi under direct Nephilim supervision - that way the Kilrathi would still bear the brunt of any hostile force, but not develop into potential threat?
Yes and no. The Chinese are one culture. The Nephilim are alien. This theory (and, in fact, any theory that posits that the Nephilim visited Kilrah centuries ago) holds that the Nephilim have serious problems coming up with their own technologies. If this is the case, and if the Nephilim have managed to reach space in such circumstances, then they are supremely aware that EVERYONE else out there is going to have technologies that might potentially be useful.
Also, I never once stated in my theory that the Nephilim were concerned about advances the Kilrathi might make. According to my theory, the Nephilim looked at the Kilrathi, said 'No threat', and then installed a warning system that was set off when the Kilrathi are vanquished. According to this theory, the Nephilim NEVER intended to steal Kilrathi technology. The Nephilim were more interested in the race that beat the Kilrathi. THAT race might represent the threat that the Kilrathi were not.
And yet, isn't this what happened in WC3? The Kilrathi were defeated by having their planet destroyed. The problem with the Kilrathi is that everything we've seen about them indicates that they will ever quit causing problems until overwhelming force is used against them. They don't have a word for 'Surrender'. Even after they've been thoroughly crushed by Confed, they persist in piracy. This is an extremely warlike people, and they will never permanently cease warring on you until you wipe them out or thoroughly cow them. As I said earlier, I believe that if Confed hadn't conveniently appeared when it did, then before long the Kilrathi would have been at war with the Mantu again.
Why? There presumably aren't any other star-faring cultures in the area at the time. Presumably when the Kilrathi's star gods came through, the Steltek were already gone. The Nephilim took a look around, realized that something might conceivably pop up in the area in the distant future, and left a little alarm to go off when things got out of hand. They had other things on their mind at the time.
Ultimately, this is all speculation. Yes, I think parts of it are a little weak (the whole idea of a warning system, for example - mind you, I do think that, given the prophecy, if the Nephilim are the Kilrathi star gods, they did guess that Kilrah would eventually be destroyed at some point). But it does tie everything together after a fashion.
Nonetheless, I'm open to other theories, if anyone has one to share.
The fact that the Nephilim can open wormholes and presumably used a wormhole to visit Kilrah, if they are the 'Star Gods,' voids the argument that they are technologically barren.
If the Nephilim are searching for useful technologies, why rely on primitive Kilrathi? Why not actually search space themselves? Afterall useful technology could be destroyed by a purely militaristic Kilrathi.
If the Nephilim are concerned about a threat as you posit, why would they set the Kilrathi on a course that would inevitably put their civilizations on a collision course? It doesn't make sense to make the Kilrathi into a sort of watchdog, when the circumstances warrant that the watch dog could turn on you.
The biggest problem is whether or not the Nephilim are the 'Star Gods.' The easiest answer is no since we have no concrete proof to put the Nephilim in Kilrah several eons ago.
If the Nephilim are searching for useful technologies, why rely on primitive Kilrathi? Why not actually search space themselves? Afterall useful technology could be destroyed by a purely militaristic Kilrathi.
If the Nephilim are concerned about a threat as you posit, why would they set the Kilrathi on a course that would inevitably put their civilizations on a collision course? It doesn't make sense to make the Kilrathi into a sort of watchdog, when the circumstances warrant that the watch dog could turn on you.
The biggest problem is whether or not the Nephilim are the 'Star Gods.' The easiest answer is no since we have no concrete proof to put the Nephilim in Kilrah several eons ago.