Continuity

[vodka7]

Question, why are you guys trying to meld all the different timelines, maps from all the different series into one amorphous whole that is contradicting and sometimes a lil confusing....

Why not keep them seperate, for example, the Gundam series, they all have the same title, similar characters, mechs, timelines, etc etc, but the keep them seperate, like Gundam Wing is an alternate reality, Gundam Sentinel is a side story of Z Gundam etc etc etc, it would be better to keep the story/timeline's seperate, instead of trying to incorporate WC Movie events into WC Game/Novel events just spoils it IMHO.

 

[WildWeasel]

That's a valid question. To be honest, I'm not sure. People just seem to idealize consistent and uniform material. Some view inconsistencies as flaws, rather than just variations. Some are simply unwilling to accept these apparent flaws in the products that they value so much. It actually sounds kinda natural. If you really like something, you don't want it to be flawed, right? With that in mind, there's motivation for explaining these inconsistencies away.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Because the concept of "alternate timelines" doesn't make sense in the context of the Wing Commander universe. The Wing movie (or End Run or Academy or whatever the internet doesn't like today) serves no purpose other than to tell a very short story in the Wing Commander universe - and to do so it utilizes the background set up by the previous products. It's not the same as something like Superman which re-establishes Clarks origin each time it creates a 'spinoff' - Wing Commander bases itself on the previous whole rather than one 'amorphous' history point.

And also because "I don't like {veriable}, everyone should ignore it" is the stupidest reason for doing anything ever.

 

[ChrisReid]

And further, keeping multiple independent timelines organized is even more complicated than keeping everything together in one universe. It takes more work to figure out what's what. Since the people that make Wing Commander products often go to such great and extreme lengths to make their books/novels/tv shows/games/etc mesh so well with the "main" body of Wing Commander, I don't see why anyone would begin to divide them up.

 

[Pulmonox]

For example, look at the mess that was once Mega Man. There are now four different (well, five actually) 'universes' It's gotten to the point that even capcom can't remember what's going on.

 

[Col.Dom]

For example, look at the mess that was once Mega Man. There are now four different (well, five actually) 'universes' It's gotten to the point that even capcom can't remember what's going on.

Isn't Mega Man X the future of Mega Man and Mega Man Zero is the future of Mega Man X

Anyway, with any grand, epic story, cohesion is an important thing. Having one, single continuity sort of deters extremely dumb and off-beat "liberties" being taken. Well... even though some could argue that the whole Pilgrim thing was an extremely dumb and off-beat liberty. However, the paraphrased version of that last book in the WC 'Pilgrim' series pretty much explained away why Pilgrims and the strife that was associated with them disappeared post-WCM.

I don't know where I went with that

 

[gryphon]

Well in the timeline it's rather easy to get information as to where certain information comes from and then promptly disregard it if it does not meet one's fancy. I for instance view anything from Academy or the movie as strange...

 

[dextorboot]

Gamespot.com just did a great feature on the history of Mega Man. I suggest checking it out if you've ever played one of the games.

As far as continuity goes, I'm with vodka and WildWeasel on this one. The games all go pretty well with each other. The books can even be thrown in with that timeline since they seem to be there just to flesh out the ideas and universe a bit more with out contradicting what happens in the games.

The movie doesn't really fit in with that timeline though. I'm one of the few who actually enjoyed the movie and only had a few minor complaints (all things having to do with the movie and not continuity or my own expectations on the games universe). I also enjoyed the Pilgrim thing, but wish they had kept in the traitor scene.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The games all go pretty well with each other.

Really? Because the *exact* same things people complain about regarding the movie can be applied to Wing Commander III (compared to WC2). The characters are all played by different actors! The ships look different! Paladin is completely changed around! Confed is *losing* the war now?! All the pre-established relationships are messed up! (Blair and Tolwyn are enemies?! Maniac isn't crazy anymore?)

And don't get me started on the Kilrathi -- they completely changed their look! In WC2 they were big cat things... now they're muppets! What the heck?!

 

[gryphon]

Well it's a good point however WC3 still doesn't feel so afterthought as say WCM. The problem with the Movie universe is that it contains a lot of things which if not entirely contradict the remainder of the WC-related fiction, do not seem to have anything in common with it. WCM and Academy are sort of like Privateer 2 for me - it seems that the story was inexorably altered somehow. It doesn't matter really, to each his own as far as beliefs go but I personally would rather consider WCM and Academy as in-universe fiction, sort of like "A Treacherous Hero" or "First to Kilrah". Those were riddled with the same inconsistencies which render for instance the Confed Handbook useless in my eyes.

 

[WildWeasel]

It doesn't matter really, to each his own as far as beliefs go

Indeed.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well it's a good point however WC3 still doesn't feel so afterthought as say WCM. The problem with the Movie universe is that it contains a lot of things which if not entirely contradict the remainder of the WC-related fiction, do not seem to have anything in common with it. WCM and Academy are sort of like Privateer 2 for me - it seems that the story was inexorably altered somehow. It doesn't matter really, to each his own as far as beliefs go but I personally would rather consider WCM and Academy as in-universe fiction, sort of like "A Treacherous Hero" or "First to Kilrah". Those were riddled with the same inconsistencies which render for instance the Confed Handbook useless in my eyes.

You must not have been around in 1994. Many long time fans bitched about WC3 for the exact same reason - it completely disregarded the previous games for the sake of appealing to a larger audience. The series suddenly became 'dark' and the story suddenly revolved soley around this 'Blair' character. Instead of influencing individual campaigns, suddenly you're Luke Skywalker (in more ways than one...). The game became less and less dynamic, and the dialogue became 'movie talk' (I think/I feel/I etc.) instead of the 'in universe' dialogue of the earlier games ('Cat carrier hit us at Vega VII again yesterday'). You didn't get medals! They didn't/couldn't say your killscore after each mission! Winning and losing became less and less dynamic! Etc. Wing Commander III was a completely different vision for the makeup of the Wing Commander 'universe'.

The movie is just so... absolutely insignificant as the storyline goes. It's three days of added history for the Tiger's Claw - and nothing that has any reprecussion anywhere in the timeline.

And Academy? It did a fantastic job of staying within the continuity -- it even went back and used the old ship designs (something no game after WC2 did).

 

[dextorboot]

The characters are all played by different actors! The ships look different!

Those both are due to the tech jump between games. Sprites and 3d polys do look different, don't they?

Paladin is completely changed around!

You mean the actor? How does that really change the timeline? Because his skin and hair color change?

Confed is *losing* the war now?!

Well, naturally. Tends not to be much fun if you start a game on the winning side.

All the pre-established relationships are messed up! (Blair and Tolwyn are enemies?! Maniac isn't crazy anymore?)

B&T: war does that to people.
Maniac: He's not?!? ........... Well, ok.

And don't get me started on the Kilrathi -- they completely changed their look! In WC2 they were big cat things... now they're muppets! What the heck?!

No, in WC2 they were sprites that looked like big cat things. Then they were muppets that looked like big cat things. Tech again.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

You see what you've done, right? You're defending WCIII in the same way that someone else would defend the Wing Commander Movie -- which was my *point*.

Those both are due to the tech jump between games. Sprites and 3d polys do look different, don't they?

Absolutely. Same thing applies to the movie -- CGI and plastic models aren't made to look like 10x10 green pixel globs.

You mean the actor? How does that really change the timeline? Because his skin and hair color change?

Even ignoring the blatant change in looks, Paladin goes from being a secret agent to being a desk general without any sort of explanation (or even reference to their previous adventure). What happened? How is it different from Paladin being a spy in the movie and then a pilot in WC1?

Well, naturally. Tends not to be much fun if you start a game on the winning side.

Definately, so they just created one with no background - just like the 'attack on Earth' in the movie.

B&T: war does that to people.
Maniac: He's not?!? ........... Well, ok.

War does that to people? We just spent three games earning Tolwyn's respect... and suddenly he hates us again? Why? And how is it any different than any of the 'different' relationships in the movie?

No, in WC2 they were sprites that looked like big cat things. Then they were muppets that looked like big cat things. Tech again.

Exactly! Just like... the movie.

 

[WildWeasel]

I'll bet that nobody saw this redundant debate coming.

 

[dextorboot]

LOAF, you seem to be talking about the technical aspects of making a movie/game more than anything else. I agree on each of those points.

What this thread started out as had more to do with the timeline and story/plot of the WC universe(s). On the points you made about that:

Paladin goes from being a secret agent to being a desk general without any sort of explanation (or even reference to their previous adventure)

The books/novelizations of the games do their best to explain that. But I don't have to tell you that.

How is it different from Paladin being a spy in the movie and then a pilot in WC1?

You tell me if the novelization of the movie explains that. I still haven't found a copy.

I'll bet that nobody saw this redundant debate coming.

It comes up almost everytime someone brings up timeline continuity.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I'll bet that nobody saw this redundant debate coming.

Oh, yeah, sorry. We should be focusing on all the truly *important* Chat Zone discussions instead. I think there was one about whether or not people think the helmsman in Wing Commander IV is hot.

(Which is to say that sitting there bitching about this or any other CZ thread being pointless is pretty idiotic, since with the possible exception of tech support threads they're all *entirely* pointless. If it's not a discussion you want to take part in, you don't have to.)

 

[dextorboot]

I think there was one about whether or not people think the helmsman in Wing Commander IV is hot.

Got a pic? I'll throw in my 2 cents.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The books/novelizations of the games do their best to explain that. But I don't have to tell you that.

No, they don't - no one ever explains why Paladin is suddenly in charge of developing the T-Bomb... or why he suddenly becomes a senator. Just that these things happened. I don't have anything against that - but I don't see the fact that he was a Pilgrim in the movie as any more of a weirdness than the WC2/3 jump.

(I defended WC3 in the exact same way as you're doing years ago - and I'm just using the argument as an example... I love WC3 and certainly include it in the WC canon...)

You tell me if the novelization of the movie explains that. I still haven't found a copy.

The movie novelization reconciles his earlier history - mentioning that he'd flown off of the 'Claw at Custers Carnival and such. It's actually various game novels (Freedom Flight, in particular) which claim he'd been a spy *during* WC1. (You can pick up the movie novelization pretty cheaply through Amazon's used books - it has a *lot* more 'WCU' references in it than the movie itself did...)

 

[dextorboot]

No, they don't - no one ever explains why Paladin is suddenly in charge of developing the T-Bomb... or why he suddenly becomes a senator. Just that these things happened.

Guess I'll have to re-read it, but I remember thinking "hey cool, they explained that" the first time.

I love WC3 and certainly include it in the WC canon.

I know, I'm not trying to say you don't or anything. I'm just giving my take on WC universe. If people want to include everything then that's cool. I don't see it, but that's cool if you do. Really, what I don't like are people who to try to include everything but then point out how different they are. I don't think they're the same timeline. That's my take. I see the movie, games, and cartoon the same I see the Spider-Man series. All being different takes on the same basic concept.

You can pick up the movie novelization pretty cheaply through Amazon's used books.

Yeah, but I'd rather buy it sans S+H. And I can normally find other hard to find books way cheaper than buying them through Amazon.