An "academic" discussion...

Dralthi5

Spaceman
I'm bored, and this seemed like a good idea, so...

I was watching the Academy cartoon tonight, and it got my geek-brain working. There's a lot of talk about how the movie and the cartoon contradict WC1. But as some of the more informed (LOAF and the like) have pointed out, this is not necessarily true. What I'm wondering, however, and this is probably pretty simple to answer, is where exactly do the movie, cartoon, novels, etc. fit in with WC1. Specifically, I mean. When do, for example, the cartoon episodes occur in relation to the missions in WC1, and where does the movie and Pilgrim Stars fit in? If one has dates to solidify a response, that'd be neat.

Now some things that most likely aren't proveable, but fun to speculate about, at any rate.

Tolwyn. As I understand, the majority of the Academy episodes take place after the movie. Tolwyn goes from commanding the Concorida supercruiser to commanding the Tiger's Claw fairly quickly. I wonder what happens to the Concordia. Is it destroyed? So, as I see it, Tolwyn goes from commanding the Concordia to commanding the Tiger's Claw to serving on Sol Station between 2654-2655. And a neat reference in the Heart of the Tiger novel, something about Tolwyn usurping command of the Claw from Captain Thorn (I don't have the book with me at the moment, it's back home). We can assume this is during the time Tolwyn is on the Claw during Academy. So... Sansky dies, replaced by Gerald. Pilgrim Truth ends, and Gerald is replaced by Thorn. Soon after, Tolwyn comes aboard by the time of "The Last One Left" (Academy, episode 2), and "usurps" command from Thorn. Tolwyn eventually leaves, and Thorn gets command back. Okay.

I just watched "The Invisible Enemy." How can Tolwyn not believe Blair in WC2 about the Stealth fighters, when he admits at the end of this episode he was "wrong about Stealth fighters," or something to that effect? Did he forget in a year's time, or is he just that stubborn? True, the Strakha seen in this episode is quite different than the Strakha that destroyed the Claw at K'tithrak Mang (more akin to a modern-day stealth fighter than a complete Shroud, as we see later), so this might lead to an explanation. Tolwyn (and Confed) knows about the Skipper (as seen in the movie), so doesn't disbelieve in cloaking technology, but he does say in "The Invisible Enemy" that the Kilrathi are years away from a cloak-capable fighter, cloak in the same sense that the Skipper cloaks, complete sensor and visual invisibility. Tolwyn knows Blair and Maniac were able to detect and destroy the non-Shrouding Strakha, so perhaps doesn't buy the idea that Blair couldn't do so again at K'tithrak Mang.

Hmmm... this probably doesn't make much sense, but I've been up a long time. Well, time for Jimmy Kimmel Live...
 
I was watching the Academy cartoon tonight, and it got my geek-brain working. There's a lot of talk about how the movie and the cartoon contradict WC1. But as some of the more informed (LOAF and the like) have pointed out, this is not necessarily true. What I'm wondering, however, and this is probably pretty simple to answer, is where exactly do the movie, cartoon, novels, etc. fit in with WC1. Specifically, I mean. When do, for example, the cartoon episodes occur in relation to the missions in WC1, and where does the movie and Pilgrim Stars fit in? If one has dates to solidify a response, that'd be neat.

Now some things that most likely aren't proveable, but fun to speculate about, at any rate.

Worth sorting out. I'll get the discussion started.

"Red and Blue" lasts two days and ends with Blair getting ready to leave for the Tiger's Claw. We can therefore reasonably place it from 2654.072 to 2654.073.

The events of the movie are 2654.074 through 2654.076. Pilgrim Stars ends on 2654.128. The Enyo series of the original Wing Commander goes in there, taking place from 2654.110 to 2654.111. Enyo 1 is dated .110, and Shotglass says the player character flew with Spirit "yesterday" on Enyo 2.) I also believe it's appropriate (but not necessary) to place the stand alone Academy episode "The Last One Left" in this time period. Taking Tolwyn's "first few weeks on a carrier" line literally, I would place it on or about 2654.095. Conflicts between these and the events of Pilgrim Stars can be resolved, though I don't have a copy of the novel on me at the moment.

Next we have the following Wing Commander missions with the following requirements:

McAuliffe 1 & 2 (same day)
McAuliffe 3 (next day)
Gateway 1 & 2 (next day, both on the same day)
Gateway 3 (next day)
Gimle Series, Brimstone 1 (next day, all on the same day)
Brimstone 2 (next day)
Brimstone 3, Cheng Du Series (next day, all on the same day)

Then, we have another solid date. The Dakota Series and Port Hedland 1 all take place on the same day... and it's one day before the TCSO Show advertised on the back of Claw Marks -- so it's 2654.139. We can use that to work backwards...

McAuliffe 1 & 2 - 2654.131
McAuliffe 3 - 2654.132
Gateway 1 & 2 - 2654.133
Gateway 3 - 2654.134
Gimle Series, Brimstone 1 - 2654.135
Brimstone 2 - 2654.136
Brimstone 3, Cheng Du Series - 2654.137
Dakota Series, Port Hedland 1 - 2654.139

And then we have...

Port Hedland 2 - 2654.140 (day of the TSCO Show)
Port Hedland 3 - 2654.141 (next day)

That concludes what I refer to as 'Early WC1'.

We then jump forward, using references to dates from Victory Streak:

We know that the reconaissance of Venice (Venice 1) was 2654.287. Venice 2 is the next day, so 2654.288.

We have another time jump forward here, as the Kilrathi Saga calender gives 2654.325 as the last day of the Vega Campaign (Venice 3 and 4).

We also have to work backwards to establish some other 'late WC1' dates: the Kurasawa and Rostov series. We know that Rostov lasts three days, and runs directly into Venice. So:

Rostov 1 - 2654.284
Rostov 2 - 2654.285
Rostov 3 - 2654.286

That leaves us three Kurasawa missions, which can happen anywhere between 2654.141 and 2654.284. Hurrah!

Finally: Wing Commander Academy's remaining eleven episodes.

We have a clear date for the two part finale, since it takes place on and around the 2654 Sivar-Eshrad ceremony (2654.293). The events of the episodes take two days, so we have:

Price of Victory, Glory of Sivar (Acts 1 & 2) - 2654.292
Glory of Sivar (Act 3) - 2654.293

That leaves us with nine episodes:

"The Most Delicate Instrument" (one day)
"Lords of the Sky" (two days)
"Word of Honor" (one day)
"Expendable" (one day)
"Chain of Command" (one day)
"Walking Wounded" (one day)
"Invisible Enemy" (one day)
"Recreation" (two days)
"On Both Your Houses" (two days)

As you predicted, there are no *solid* dates for these episodes. I would put them either around the mid-Venice cut or the 'early/late' WC1 cut. Note that they divide into several storylines. Most Delicate Instrument, Lords of the Sky, Word of Honor and Walking Wounded are all stand alone stories. Expendable and Chain of Command go in order, as do Walking Wounded, Invisible Enemy and Recreation.

Tolwyn. As I understand, the majority of the Academy episodes take place after the movie. Tolwyn goes from commanding the Concorida supercruiser to commanding the Tiger's Claw fairly quickly. I wonder what happens to the Concordia. Is it destroyed? So, as I see it, Tolwyn goes from commanding the Concordia to commanding the Tiger's Claw to serving on Sol Station between 2654-2655. And a neat reference in the Heart of the Tiger novel, something about Tolwyn usurping command of the Claw from Captain Thorn (I don't have the book with me at the moment, it's back home). We can assume this is during the time Tolwyn is on the Claw during Academy. So... Sansky dies, replaced by Gerald. Pilgrim Truth ends, and Gerald is replaced by Thorn. Soon after, Tolwyn comes aboard by the time of "The Last One Left" (Academy, episode 2), and "usurps" command from Thorn. Tolwyn eventually leaves, and Thorn gets command back. Okay.

The first thing that's worth noting is that Tolwyn is *not* commanding the TCS Concordia in the movie. He's commander of the Fourteenth Fleet and has his flag onboard the Concordia... but the captain of the ship is someone named Dwight (no last name given - referenced in the Handbook).

The Concordia isn't destroyed, because it shows up referenced two years later in the Kilrathi Saga manual - with a set of orders transferring Shadow and a few others to her fighter squadron.

My understanding is that the situation in terms of commanding the Tiger's Claw something like this. Note that Gerald and Halcyon are never formally made captain of the carrier, the duty simply falls to them for periods of time.

Comm. Geoffrey Tolwyn - Commands Tiger's Claw on/around Custer's Carnival (2649).
Capt. Lawrence (Jay) Sansky - Takes command after Tolwyn (?). Dies.
Cmdr. Paul Gerald - Takes command per the chain of command after Sansky dies.
Capt. Thorn - Formal replacement for Capt. Sansky.
Comm. Geoffrey Tolwyn - Takes command from Thorn (WC3 novel reference).
Col. Peter Halcyon - Takes command per the chain of command after Tolwyn leaves, through Operation Thor's Hammer.
Capt. Thorn - Returned to command when the carrier returns from Operation Thor's Hammer.


I just watched "The Invisible Enemy." How can Tolwyn not believe Blair in WC2 about the Stealth fighters, when he admits at the end of this episode he was "wrong about Stealth fighters," or something to that effect? Did he forget in a year's time, or is he just that stubborn? True, the Strakha seen in this episode is quite different than the Strakha that destroyed the Claw at K'tithrak Mang (more akin to a modern-day stealth fighter than a complete Shroud, as we see later), so this might lead to an explanation. Tolwyn (and Confed) knows about the Skipper (as seen in the movie), so doesn't disbelieve in cloaking technology, but he does say in "The Invisible Enemy" that the Kilrathi are years away from a cloak-capable fighter, cloak in the same sense that the Skipper cloaks, complete sensor and visual invisibility. Tolwyn knows Blair and Maniac were able to detect and destroy the non-Shrouding Strakha, so perhaps doesn't buy the idea that Blair couldn't do so again at K'tithrak Mang.

I'm kind of tired from all the thinking about the Wing Commander one timeline -- but something that deserves discussion is that this is one of several times when it's implied that Tolwyn *does* know about stealth fighters but simply refuses to admit that they exist. The episode blames it on 'pride', but I'd be willing to bet there's a more interesting storyline. (A few other bits - note that Blair is *not* convicted of treason -- so the court finds it conceivabble that the stealth fighters could exist. In Super Wing Commander, we have a 'stealth fighters' argument between Halcyon and Tolwyn - with Tolwyn storming off to the Austin when Halcyon claims they're being developed. In the Confed Handbook, there's a reference to Tolwyn having access to a classified document about the status of the Kilrathi stealth fighter program. I think there's a concentrated effort to imply that there's something more going on here, in terms of Tolwyn and the Kilrathi stealth fighters... his reaction in all cases (this episode, WC2, SWC) is clearly overblown no matter what's going on.
 
Dralthi5 said:
Tolwyn (and Confed) knows about the Skipper (as seen in the movie)

If this is true, then why does Eisen make it out to be a weapon that Confed have never encountered before? In the movie an officer on the Claw says something along the lines of "oh no, a skipper missile," implying its existence is common knowledge. Yet several years in the future in WC3, Eisen says something like, "reports indicate the kilrathi are testing a new cloaking missile, which we have dubbed skippers," which sounds like Confed have never come across it until recently. I can only come up with two explanations:

1. The missile Eisen refers to is a new version of the missile seen in the movie which Confed have just happened to give the same name. However, if this were true, they probably would have called it a Skipper II.

2. The skipper from the movie was deemed unsuccessful by the kilrathi and was scrapped. Many years later in the time of WC3, it is reintroduced with several enhancements, so it retains its original name. Due to its long absence, Eisen refers to it as if it is a new weapon.

I'm not really sure how accurate my explanations are, so maybe someone else can come up with something more convincing.
 
As I mentioned in another thread, I believe that the theories we develop to explain contradictions between the games/books and the movie are just our way of making sense of the fact that Chris plainly decided to throw in some things here and there and forget about trying to make it congruent with the main canon. I love speculating and brainstorming to make logic out of the illogical, but IMO it's all in our minds and if you asked Roberts himself he'd say he wasn't trying to make something that would fit in our beloved storyline, he just wanted something that fans and non-fans alike could relate to.

As far as stealth fighters, just like the line next to the download episode link in CIC (not sure if it's still there) I think that "Invisible Enemy" supports the WC2 storyline, rather than contradicts it. Tolwyn's pride has been a common denominator throughout WC. There's no secret weapon, special enemy tactic, or any other unforseen factor that's usable as an excuse for failure, and any attempt to use such as an explanation for why things went sour is just that -- an excuse, a fabrication to cover up negligence. Blair was acquitted of treason not because Tolwyn believed in the back of his mind that there might have actually been stealth fighters but because there was no evidence to prove that Blair had a direct part to play in the Claw's destruction except possible abandonment, which was enough to virtually end his career anyways. Later in WC3, when Tolwyn "usurps" Eisen's command and his precious Behemoth gets annihilated, he again allows no excuse for failure. He doesn't blame rushed development (which he admitted to earlier) that didn't allow for better shields, keel mounts, or turrets, he blames the ship's crew. (Of course he happened to be right about it being a leaky ship, but still his pride is evident.) The only time Tolwyn ever seems to be leniant towards failure and actually appears reasonable is in Fleet Action, but later books like False Colors make a good clarification of the contrast.
 
I think I agree with Mordecai, although LOAFs reasoning and research is spectacular, and theoretically could fit the pieces together, I believe Chris may have been trying to simply create the movie as a "stand-alone", and perhaps the series in the same way. Remember - that even though many of the same writers are involved, there are things that happen in the editing room that EVERY director hates. Really important things get out and modified, and sure... the writers and Chris Roberts may have had every intent to make everything fit together like glue, but the studios had other ideas. And that's okay... I just generally see the games and the other mediums to be seperate. But on the other hand... if they're produced by the same people, do you have any choice but to accept it as cannon?
 
Hmmm, so basically my thought of Tolwyn being a stubborn bastard fits. Okay, that makes sense.

1. The missile Eisen refers to is a new version of the missile seen in the movie which Confed have just happened to give the same name. However, if this were true, they probably would have called it a Skipper II.

2. The skipper from the movie was deemed unsuccessful by the kilrathi and was scrapped. Many years later in the time of WC3, it is reintroduced with several enhancements, so it retains its original name. Due to its long absence, Eisen refers to it as if it is a new weapon.

I think that's basically the same thing for either one, but the most likely explanation. The WC3 Skipper is a new version of an old weapon. Hence Eisen's remark, "The Kilrathi are testing a new type of cloaked missile." It's shaky, but it works.

I believe Chris may have been trying to simply create the movie as a "stand-alone", and perhaps the series in the same way.

Be that as it may, I don't think that's relevant. I don't think anyone is definitively trying to state it was supposed to absolutely fit into the timeline! Nah, we're just having fun here.

Now a quick question about Super Wing Commander, which I know little about, except Paladin has an eyepatch for some reason: is Super Wing Commander basically a remake of WC1, with different graphics and speech? And where does Tolwyn fit in? If he's on the Claw, can we assume it's right after the Academy series, and when he "storms off to the Austin," this is where he leaves and is replaced by Halcyon for Thor's Hammer? I mean, I have no clue, so someone set me straight. I've also read something about Secret Missions 1.5, where the Claw hunts down the shipyards that built the Sivar. Is this in SWC?
 
Dralthi5 said:
I just watched "The Invisible Enemy." How can Tolwyn not believe Blair in WC2 about the Stealth fighters, when he admits at the end of this episode he was "wrong about Stealth fighters," or something to that effect? Did he forget in a year's time, or is he just that stubborn?
I think it's a case of "dog ate my homework". No school teacher has ever disputed the possibility of a dog actually eating someone's homework (nor the existence of dogs :p)... but no school teacher ever believes this, either. It's just such a convenient event, that it's not plausible. In the case of Blair, consider that Blair really isn't in a position to be trusted. The enemy came through his sector, he survived, and his flight recorder disk is missing. That sounds like negligence at best, and treason at worst. And suddenly, Blair comes up with this story about Kilrathi stealth fighters. Tolwyn knows that Blair's encountered stealth fighters before... but isn't it amazingly convenient that he'd encounter them again, just when everyone thinks he failed his mission? From a logical point of view, there's no reason to trust Blair on this - while any Confed pilot logically could encounter a stealth fighter, Blair is, apart from Maniac, literally the only one in a position to come up with a convincing lie about a stealth fighter encounter.
 
Yeah, it always was awfully convenient (or unnerving when it was me playing Blair's character) that the flight recorder was always missing or damaged every time he encountered stealth fighters. Even so, I just find it a bit incompetent for Tactical not to even bat their eye at the thought of the possibility, especially having encountered it before. "How do you explain the scratch marks on my ship--did I shoot at myself?" Someone from Intel needed to investigate more into it, instead of everyone dismissing it as hogwash-- "Next you'll be telling us you met Santa Claus!"
 
I'd have to agree. And how Confed can have so many traitors on board their ships is ridiculous. It's as bad as CTU on "24."
 
If this is true, then why does Eisen make it out to be a weapon that Confed have never encountered before?

We actually just discussed this one very recently in the "Confederation At War" thread.

The first thing worth noting is that Eisen's actual line is the Kilrathi are testing "a new cloaked missile". The line is written without a comma, and so I can't help but read it as implying that there are *old* cloaked missiles.

The two Skippers have some fundametal differences. The movie version (designated K459-C) is a slow, long range weapon with the yield of a torpedo... the WC3 version (designated YM-13A) is a fast, short range weapon with the yield of a CSM.

Now a quick question about Super Wing Commander, which I know little about, except Paladin has an eyepatch for some reason: is Super Wing Commander basically a remake of WC1, with different graphics and speech? And where does Tolwyn fit in? If he's on the Claw, can we assume it's right after the Academy series, and when he "storms off to the Austin," this is where he leaves and is replaced by Halcyon for Thor's Hammer?

Super Wing Commander is Wing Commander with new graphics... but they also added some 'set up' dialogue for a potential Super Wing Commander 2. Thus we have lines about Tolwyn (who's on the Austin, which is working with the 'Claw) fighting with Halcyon about the stealth fighters.

I've also read something about Secret Missions 1.5, where the Claw hunts down the shipyards that built the Sivar. Is this in SWC?

Yes, Super Wing Commander has this storyline instead of Secret Missions 2.

Remember - that even though many of the same writers are involved, there are things that happen in the editing room that EVERY director hates. Really important things get out and modified, and sure... the writers and Chris Roberts may have had every intent to make everything fit together like glue, but the studios had other ideas.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about - Chris Roberts wrote and directed the movie and was also responsible for the final cut after the initial test screenings.

As I mentioned in another thread, I believe that the theories we develop to explain contradictions between the games/books and the movie are just our way of making sense of the fact that Chris plainly decided to throw in some things here and there and forget about trying to make it congruent with the main canon. I love speculating and brainstorming to make logic out of the illogical, but IMO it's all in our minds and if you asked Roberts himself he'd say he wasn't trying to make something that would fit in our beloved storyline, he just wanted something that fans and non-fans alike could relate to.

Eh, I can't help but find this kind of argument awkward - because it's just putting words in someone elses mouth. "I think X would say Y" isn't a very good way to support a point.
 
Despite Chris being repsonsible for the final cut, there's no such thing as a director that gets exactly what he wants in that room.
 
I don't see how that justifies saying that the Wing Commander movie isn't related to the Wing Commander games. Couldn't you apply that statement to *any* two things -- from any two Star Trek episodes to any two FMV Wing Commander games?
 
Bandit LOAF said:
"Red and Blue" lasts two days and ends with Blair getting ready to leave for the Tiger's Claw. We can therefore reasonably place it from 2654.072 to 2654.073.

The events of the movie are 2654.074 through 2654.076. Pilgrim Stars ends on 2654.128.

How could this be true? I thought that they mentioned that Maniac and Blair had just graduated from the academy at the begining of the movie, yet in the series they are all still in the academy in the series (hence the name Wing Commander Acadaemy). Not only that, but they have the rank of Lieutenant in the film, don't they? I thought that in the academy they were just 'cadets' (although in an episode Archer's door sats "Lt." on it) maybe someone could clarify this for me?.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I don't see how that justifies saying that the Wing Commander movie isn't related to the Wing Commander games. Couldn't you apply that statement to *any* two things -- from any two Star Trek episodes to any two FMV Wing Commander games?


The WCM is a lot more out of place in comparison with the rest of WC (games, books, etc) than any Star Trek episode in comparison with its main storyline, since Star Trek is a TV-first, video game afterwards series as opposed to the game-first, movie WAY later series. Star Trek has spanned for far too long and far too many forms and numbers of media for it to remain completely congruent with the so-called ST canon. How can you compare that to WC, which really only spanned about 9 years before the movie came out and 7 years after the last real game. A canon contradiction or abandonment (i.e. the movie in some cases) would be much more noticeable than in the gigantic, decades long Star Trek.
 
How could this be true? I thought that they mentioned that Maniac and Blair had just graduated from the academy at the begining of the movie, yet in the series they are all still in the academy in the series (hence the name Wing Commander Acadaemy). Not only that, but they have the rank of Lieutenant in the film, don't they? I thought that in the academy they were just 'cadets' (although in an episode Archer's door sats "Lt." on it) maybe someone could clarify this for me?.

None of Wing Commander Academy actually takes place during the characters' academy careers -- per the press kit (which you can find at the CIC), they're attending a special command school *after* having graduated (and per your door, been comissioned as Second Lieutenants). The first episode opens at the TCSF Flight School on Sirius.

The WCM is a lot more out of place in comparison with the rest of WC (games, books, etc) than any Star Trek episode in comparison with its main storyline, since Star Trek is a TV-first, video game afterwards series as opposed to the game-first, movie WAY later series. Star Trek has spanned for far too long and far too many forms and numbers of media for it to remain completely congruent with the so-called ST canon. How can you compare that to WC, which really only spanned about 9 years before the movie came out and 7 years after the last real game. A canon contradiction or abandonment (i.e. the movie in some cases) would be much more noticeable than in the gigantic, decades long Star Trek.

... I'm not comparing Star Trek to Wing Commander, I'm finding fault with Flashfire's unusual method of discreting the movie. His standard is so overbroad that it could be applied to *any* two stories. I drew absolutely no comparison betwen S
 
It's not necessarily about discrediting the movie, it's about Chris not having complete control of the material, thus accounting for many deviations from the orginal canon. Once we understand that, we probably won't find ourselves so desperate to try to squeeze it and tweak to fit the story that already existed, we'd just enjoy it as WC fans and accept it for what it is, but nothing else. A similar argument might be made for P2, but I'm not gonna even open That can of worms.....
 
But we know that Chris Roberts *did* have pretty much complete control over the movie. He was responsible for the final cut of the film and he also raised quite a bit of extra money himself beyond the initial budget so he could do the movie the way he wanted it.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I don't see how that justifies saying that the Wing Commander movie isn't related to the Wing Commander games. Couldn't you apply that statement to *any* two things -- from any two Star Trek episodes to any two FMV Wing Commander games?


Actually that could be applied, if you desire to take it to the extreme. But I didn't SAY that the Wing Commander movie wasn't related. I did however, state that the possibility exists that Roberts et al. decided to create the movie from a stance that would stand on it's own two feet, without requiring much "background" from the games. This way those who were not fans or had no WC knowledge, could watch and enjoy without feeling left out. And this might have required parting from the established video game plot a little. I asked a quesiton at the end of my original post - allow me to rephrase....

Despite editing room cuts, and obvious plot disparities that were put in for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is creating a product that non-WC-fans could enjoy, does a person have a CHOICE on whether or not the movie is cannon.

I'm just speculating here... throwing out some ideas...
 
FlashFire82 said:
Despite editing room cuts, and obvious plot disparities that were put in for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is creating a product that non-WC-fans could enjoy, does a person have a CHOICE on whether or not the movie is cannon.

Despite what some might think, I don't think there's an actual WC "canon." That would imply something official and definitive, which is certainly something we don't have. There's so many disparate elements we have to piece together, calling something "canon" is sort of misleading. However, yes, I think a person has a choice on whether or not they want to consider the movie a part of the Wing Commander universe, or some sort of crackpot alternate universe. I mean, come on, this is a fictional series where we fight giant cats. A little freedom of thought and choice is allowed, I think. But personally I think it's silly to completely discredit the movie, since it adds so much richness to the universe.
 
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